Narrow Band Letter from General Pineda - not until 2008

[Eclipse]

Just received this from our Wing DC:

MEMORANDUM FOR WING AND REGION COMMANDERS

SUBJECT: Communications Narrowband Transition Update

1. Several of you have requested updates on the status of the communications narrowband
transition in the last few days, and this memo serves that purpose.

2. Due to issues beyond our control, CAP's frequency assignments along with several other
frequency assignments for major military commands and other federal agencies also completing
the narrowband transition have not been finalized at this time. Coordination is not yet complete
between the United States, Canada, and Mexico for several of our nationwide assignments. Until
that is done, and we receive formal approval for assigned frequencies, we cannot transition or
distribute new repeaters since they cannot be retuned in the field. We have requested a formal
narrowband transition extension through the Air Force, and they are very supportive. We know
that many wings may not be able to transition this summer even if we get assignments soon
because of physical access restrictions and required planning for many sites. The national
headquarters staff and my director of communications and his staff are working diligently to
resolve the issues. As soon as we know more we will let you know. At this time we do not expect
the organization will be able to complete the narrowband transition until the summer of 2008.

3. Though this is very frustrating for all of us, please also look at this positively. Though most
wings submitted narrowband transition plans, we know that many of you could have used more
time to better define your requirements and to secure additional local resources to help ease the
transition. Take this time to bring your key personnel together, revise your plans as best you can,
and focus your energies on what can be done locally at this time like detailed site surveys, needs
assessments, and updating agreements with site owners and service providers. Also, the NTC
has the necessary computer modeling software and will be able to assist you in producing
Intermod Studies for your repeater sites where the site owner requires it.

(signed, etc., etc., and some personal contact info...)

[Stonewall]

I'm not a commo geek, but I'm fairly knowledgable of CAP comms type stuff as it relates to ground teams, but I still don't fully understand this whole transition.

I've often asked, "will my current radios work with this change in frequencies, etc.".  I never get a straight answer.  Kind of like from my tax guy.  Well, you can claim this and you have receipts, right, so yeah, but home improvement equipment and moving expensive are legit and then this air patrol thing you volunteer with is non-profit and then again, your "too and from" expenses for the air national guard thingy you're in, well, yeah, so the tolls can't be claimed but the money on dry cleaning for your suits as well as your uniforms, and sometimes tires if you use your car to drive for work, not to and from, but for work, and of course, don't forget the special dog exemption, so yeah, you can do that.  By this time, I'm well intoxicated.

As far as I know, the radios I currently have had for <1, 7, 10 and 13 years will work until this "change" is final.  However, I'm not legal to use my radios under the old bandwidth or something.

Look, when this is all said and done, I want the cheapest but functional radios (base station and portable) that I can buy and use on ground teams.  Pictures would even be nice.  Throwing out MhZ symbols and HF vs VHF and UHF is all impressive but does nothing for me.

I miss going to Ham Radio Outlet in Woodbridge, VA and saying "Hi, I'm a CAP guy and I want a radio that works in CAP".  For your car or your hand?  "I'll take one of each, thanks".  Done!

[Major Lord]

Kirt,

No ham radio is approvable. You will need to buy a god-awful expensive commercial radio to be in NB and NTIA compliance. I know thats bad news. On the other hand, there is no way for anyone listening to know if your radio is approved or not....People will not be ablee to get a call sign with a non-approved radio, and there could potentially be repercussions for using a non-approved radio. Google "CAP NTIA" and you will find the VHF and HF radios that are approved, and their sunset dates ( Some are wide band approved, some narrow band, and some outright banned.)

I would stronlgy suggest that nobody buys a new CAP radio until we know what the new frequencies are, and whether APCO (digital) is likeley to be used anytime soon. You might find a swingin' deal on an NTIA approved radio, only to have it become obsolete overnight.


Capt. Lord

[Major Lord]

The link:

https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/equipment.cfm

Capt. Lord

[sardak]

The sad part of CAP's tranistion is that it has to follow NTIA.  FCC licensees have until 2018 to become narrowband compliant and the (current) FCC specs are not as tight as NTIA.  The national mutual aid channels such as FERN, NLEC, 155.160 (probably the most common SAR channel) are all wideband and won't require narrowband modulation for years.

One can buy an FCC narrowband compliant radio for $300 and get a big chunk of change back.

Mike

[lordmonar]

I'm not a commo geek, but I'm fairly knowledgable of CAP comms type stuff as it relates to ground teams, but I still don't fully understand this whole transition.

Okay...here is the short and easy version.  The push to narrow band is designed to allow more users in the same frequency space (band with).

So when they upgrade the equipment your radio will still work.  It still can transmit and receive comms from a narrow band radio....however....two things will happen.

1)  The narrow band radios will not be able to receive all of your transmissions (call frequency clipping).  This will cause any communications from you to the distant end to be distorted.  It will still be received but it will have gaps in the information.

2)  Because your radio is wide band it will interfere with users on channels above and below the one you are using.  Also you could pick up the bleed over from them.

So you could use it....that is your radio will work....but you will be interfering with other users and they with you.

Here is a visual:

The wide band frequency plan is 10 Legal pages (8.5" X 14") laid side by side in landscape (their short ends touching).

Now take 16 more sheets of paper and lay them out side by side with their long sides touching. This is the narrow band plan.

So we get 16 users in the space we used to have 10.  But you are still using your wide band radio.  Pick a wide band channel (1-10) at random and see how many of the narrow band papers it touches.  These are the other users that you will be interfering with and who will be interfering with you.

[Eclipse]

I'm not a commo geek, but I'm fairly knowledgeable of CAP comms type stuff as it relates to ground teams, but I still don't fully understand this whole transition.

Its actually fairly straightforward, so long as you follow the dots and read things without filtering too much.

CAP radios have to be both capable of operating on the specified frequency, >and< do so in a manner which is compliant with NTIA specifications for power, drift, cross talk, etc. 

There is lots of equipment that is operationally capable, but only a small number meet the NTIA specs.

The venerable VX-150, for example, can be reprogrammed to FUNCTION, but doesn't meet the specs.

Some of this issue being a "problem", or even discussed at all is a function of our volunteer "self-funded" status.  Lots of agencies are held to the same standard, but few encourage or even allow their members to purchase their own equipment.  PD/FD, RealMilitary®, etc., just push the button on the brick they are handed.

Our rich history of membership by Radiotelephone Operators brings a level of both understanding and concern not seen in other ES entities.

Yes, its sad to see to see perfectly good equipment become unusable simply because of the some rules changing, but I'm told there will be a rich secondary market for these radios because of features most CAP people never use.

At $125 for 4+years of use, I've gotten my money out of it, and the EF Johnson I was issued to replace it, while being 2x's as heavy, also has 2x's the performance.

While I can't possibly address the politics involved in many states regarding who gets a radio, I >can< tell you that most states who have followed the requisition process are literally swimming in new gear.  And its >supposed< to be as simple as requesting a radio through channels, with whatever justification you have for its use.

YMMV

[Major Lord]

Icom Handheld, NTIA, "cheap" but not APCO 25:

http://www.nsiradio.com/icom_f14.html

Capt. Lord

[Eclipse]

Icom Handheld, NTIA, "cheap" but not APCO 25:

http://www.nsiradio.com/icom_f14.html

Capt. Lord

I originally thought that the P25 compliance was silly, until I got my EFJ radio, and realized it actually WOULD be nice to have a secure channel to speak about whatever it is you need to.

As it is we've already begun "playing' with the digital features of these radios in a semi-secure mode.

When full-digital, analog only radios such as the 150 can't "hear" what you are saying, so even without loading keys you can get a little privacy out of the box.

given the choice, I wouldn't spend the extra money for P25, but its a nice-to-have...

[SarDragon]

Icom Handheld, NTIA, "cheap" but not APCO 25:

http://www.nsiradio.com/icom_f14.html

Capt. Lord

Sixteen channels is a little light in that department, don't you think?

[Major Lord]

Icom Handheld, NTIA, "cheap" but not APCO 25:

http://www.nsiradio.com/icom_f14.html

Capt. Lord

Sixteen channels is a little light in that department, don't you think?

16 channels is very light! I am trying to find handhelds that meet member owned requirements: Cheap, NTIA, and cheap....Not many choices. I think it is more important for a mobile to have lots of channels that a handheld, so you could probably squeak by with 16 channels. My personal hand-held radio is an Icom F30GS. NTIA approved, 256 channels, PC programmable, and costs more than $500.00. Not a lot of members can justify a radio that pricey.

Capt. Lord

[arajca]

16 channels is light enough to be non-usable in some wings.

[shorning]

Wha?

[Major Lord]

You must have one big Wing! Is it in America?

Capt. Lord

[arajca]

CO - 20+ repeaters 10+pl sets.

[SarDragon]

You must have one big Wing! Is it in America?

Capt. Lord

Sixteen is pretty light for CAWG, too. For the San Diego bank on the Stealth, there are three simplex channels and ten repeaters (three with primary and alternate pairs). That leaves out a simplex channel, a couple of repeaters in LA County, and all the mutual aid freqs. The SoCal bank has overlap, but leaves out the three most southerly repeaters in SD County.

[Major Lord]

Roger that. In NorCal you can hit Diablo in a 200 mile radius, That and a pri and 2nd simplex would get you by most UDF missions, but I sure would be nice to get the other repeaters too. My perfect SAR radio would be:

1) VHF NB Compliant
2) 256 channels
3) Have a GPS exchange/display like the Garmin RHINO's
4) reasonable cost

Capt Lord

[floridacyclist]

Unless something has changed recently, all you need are the simplex freqs and two repeater splits with the UAT since it is allowed for handhelds. They figure that with that small antenna and 5W or so, you're only going to be able to hit one repeater at a time.

I program my PRC-127s with the CAP freqs and still have room for the local ham repeaters and a couple of weather freqs.

On the other hand, if you have a mobile and are not allowed to use the UAT for normal use, the minimum in our area is 32 channels in order to cover all repeaters in GA, AL, and FL

[Major Lord]

I have to program in all those Marine Band channels plus the Burger king Order box frequency for all 50 States!

Capt. Lord