Do looks count in ES?

[Dragoon]

Remember, our utility uniform is not just for SAR and CAP is not only a SAR organziation.  Our BDUs are moreso a part of the Cadet Program than Emergency Services.  ES being 1/3 of the mission and not required participation for cadets.

I believe cadets should be encouraged to participate in Emergency Services operations at all levels, especially ground operations because not only is it beneficial to our community, state and nation, it is a vital part of learning leadership and responsibility.

All the more reason, in the interests of the unique high visibility needs of SAR and the importance of uniformity during such operations, to put everyone in one suit for SAR, even if it's not the suit they wear for the other parts of CAP.

The advantage of the orange shirt kinda thing is that the additional expense is minimal - you get to reuse your pants and boots.  Lowering the bar for cadets who want to participate. 

[tribalelder]

YES ! Looks count.  The uniform is a tool than helps you do your job.

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building.  

Be in uniform.  A REAL uniform, not a golf shirt -- unless you're wearing a reflectorized windbreaker w/CAP on the back.  Magnetic signs on the car help too.  

Nobody wants to do fund-raising for a memorial flight scholarship.

[sardak]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

[Stonewall]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

It is and never has been a problem.  I remember when the ranting and raving of orange vests came out because everyone was worried about being shot by a hunter.  If that's the real reason then I think its ridiculous.  Truth is, we do need to wear an orange vest out in the field when performing line searches and the like.  Or, of course, when out in a busy business area with cars moving around us as we search for whatever it is.

I have personally been to Washington DC, parts of Maryland, neighborhoods in Northern Virginia and parts in between, all at night, all housing or business districts knocking on doors past sun-down.

This is where a squared away GTL comes in.  First, hopefully you have more than 1 senior member on your ground team.  Second, if you're worth half your weight as a GTL you can pretty much narrow the signal down to at least one building/house, which should alleviate the need to go house to house.  Maybe at most, 3 houses.

One senior stays with the rest of the ground team and CAP van/personal vehicle.  Hopefully its a white CAP van with decal on it, maybe an amber light.  Park in a lighted area, then one senior and squared away troop (cadet or senior) start the doorbell ringing.  I've done it at least 5 or 6 times in 15 years of being in DC Wing.  Never once ran into a problem.

One episode in Silver Spring, MD ended up being a plumber who bought some sort of orange radio transmitter for $5 and threw it in his plumbing van.  We were in Front Royal, VA on a SAREX at about 2230 when we got the call.  Our 24 hr radio watch came in handy.  We packed up, at night, traveled down I-66 to I-495 into Maryland and had it shut off at the guy's house by like 00:30.

For another example, read the last paragraph in this 2003 article from the Fairfax Times .

[Dragoon]

Camo or blue or orange, it doesn't really matter.

From what I've witnessed, the key is for everyone to dress alike.  If everyone in a group looks the same, people tend make the assumption that they are professional team that knows what it's doing.  Unless they are all dressed in identical chicken costumes or somesuch.

Now, I would agree that my initial reaction to someone in BDUs knocking on my door would be a bit of apprehension, a professional demeanor and explanation would eliminate those fears quickly.  I doubt I'd be reaching for a gun or anything.

[sardak]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

It is and never has been a problem.

There are non-camo uniform options.  Camo has been a problem in that the non-CAP observers of a scene have wondered who the people in camo are.   Why is the Army here?  Why is the SWAT team here?   Why are they wearing orange vests?  Traffic control?  Those are real comments.  I believe the issue of who we are in the eyes of the public is continually discussed on other threads.

From one of your earlier posts.

As to a standard non-USAF utility uniform, I stand by my idea of EVERYONE cadets and seniors, wearing Olive Drab "jungle" fatigues.  Not the slant pocket ones, the straight pockets.  Basically BDUs but not camouflaged.  YMMV.

I don't have a problem with that, though it wouldn't be my preference.  But why not camo?

I remember when the ranting and raving of orange vests came out because everyone was worried about being shot by a hunter.  If that's the real reason then I think its ridiculous.

Agree it shouldn't be, and I don't think it is.  Stats shows that the odds of being shot by a hunter are orders of magnitude lower than other issues facing ground teams. It's a matter of visibility to ourselves, other ground teams and aircrews.  Although, I have been on missions where CAP aircrews couldn't see a group of half dozen or more non-CAP ground team members wearing high visibility colors, and more than just vests.   Maybe the crew thought that it couldn't be a ground team because they were too easy to see.

Truth is, we do need to wear an orange vest out in the field when performing line searches and the like.

Because we're wearing camo, and the orange vest is recognition that camo isn't the right choice.  Even wearing the solid green (as you'd like) or blue (as we're authorized) is a problem for visibility.  In the days when we wore fatigues and then jungle fatigues, there was no policy to wear orange vests or any other high visibility clothing.  Those of us who wanted to be seen wore high visibility clothing because we recognized the need.

Park rangers and such wear greens, grays and browns to blend in with the environment.  Some law enforcement SAR teams do too for the same reason.  Other LE SAR teams, like the one you included in your initial post in this thread, and most (not all) non-LE SAR teams wear high visibility clothing to be seen.

Or, of course, when out in a busy business area with cars moving around us as we search for whatever it is.

I have personally been to Washington DC, parts of Maryland, neighborhoods in Northern Virginia and parts in between, all at night, all housing or business districts knocking on doors past sun-down.

I've done the same, but in the metro areas of the West Coast and Denver. 

I've never searched in camo and won't simply because camo was designed for a purpose and nothing we do on a CAP ground team meets that purpose.  When I need a uniform I have other choices.

From what I've witnessed, the key is for everyone to dress alike.  If everyone in a group looks the same, people tend make the assumption that they are professional team that knows what it's doing.  Unless they are all dressed in identical chicken costumes or some such.

Agree.

Mike

[Stonewall]

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

There are non-camo uniform options.  Camo has been a problem in that the non-CAP observers of a scene have wondered who the people in camo are.   Why is the Army here?  Why is the SWAT team here?   Why are they wearing orange vests?  Traffic control?  Those are real comments.  I believe the issue of who we are in the eyes of the public is continually discussed on other threads.

What CAP ground team leader allows ground team members to mill around in such a fashion that people have to ask a question.  And what is wrong with people asking that question anyway?  That's what a PAO is for.  No ma'am, the Army is not here, these are members of the Civil Air Patrol ground search team looking for the young child lost from yesterday.  Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?  Is it that big of an issue that we get confused with the Army?  Does it even happen at all?  If so, who cares?

We wear camouflage because it's our CAP uniform.  Once again, Ground SAR is not a primary mission of CAP.  Emergency Services is only 1/3 of CAP's whole purpuse, and even ES has several different facets are.  BDUs are the perfect utility uniform.  Need to be seen?  Wear a vest, its required anyway.  Prior to BDUs we wore fatigues.  Why?  Because that is the uniform of choice afforded to us by the Air Force.  CAP is not a SAR organization, but if we were, then perhaps we should focus on a "SAR uniform".  But if we were solely a SAR organizaiton, I would suggest that a uniform not be worn at all, but what makes you comfortable and safe. 

I like the idea of the solid OD jungle fatigues because like standard BDUs, they are durable and equally functional.  They also carry with them a more military look that is needed by the cadet program.

High visibility clothing is not necessary for CAP, although very useful.  But CAP can continue wearing their BDUs and simply throw on a <$25 vest. 

You could be wearing a bright orange VS17 signal panel around your body and still not be seen by aircrews.  Have you flown on a mission before?  It should be a requirement for all GTLs to be Observer qualified.  We've had ground to air signals set up in 20' x 20' open areas that aircrews could barely see.  But throw in a few flashes from a signal mirror from a few well trained cadet ground team members and it'll never fail.  Not to mention vectoring.  Air/Ground communications is an essential skill practiced by every CAP ground team I've worked with in the past 15 years.  Even had an annual exercise called TACCOMEX that has lasted more than 25 years that inolves nothing but air/ground communicaitons.

CAP didn't pick camouflage because of the color.  CAP wears camouflaged BDUs because it is a UNIFORM.  Call it what you want but it  is the utility uniform of choice for CAP.

It's your choice to wear something else when you do searches out in Denver, that's fine.  Different region, different weather conditions and different rules.  BDUs have never ever been an issue for me or my team members.  Overweight out of shape adults stomping through the woods in the middle of summer are far more of a concern to me than BDUs.

Wearing khaki cargo pants and an orange t-shirt for SAR is no different than wearing BDUs and an orange vest.

[RiverAux]

Yes, looks can count to a certain extent.  However, I think it is probably more important that the non-CAP people see that your team is prepared.  I'm sure many here have seen volunteer firemen and others particpate in ground searches who go out into the woods in tennis shoes and without a canteen. 

Everyone knows that camo is not ideal for SAR, but it is not as simple as putting on an orange shirt.  That might be fine in some areas in the warm months of the year, but you also get into raingear, cool weather gear, and very cold weather gear. 

Now, I do think CAP should standardize search web/backpack gear and I would not go with the Army gear.  There are high vis options that we could use and could be sold through Vanguard. 

[sardak]

What CAP ground team leader allows ground team members to mill around in such a fashion that people have to ask a question.

It happens. The question is who trained these GTLs?  It wasn't me, but I end up having to undo some of these situations.  Don't get me started on GTL training.

That's what a PAO is for.  No ma'am, the Army is not here, these are members of the Civil Air Patrol ground search team looking for the young child lost from yesterday.

The example given was a UDF team in an urban setting at 2AM.

Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?

We don't get to screen the IQ of the public.

Is it that big of an issue that we get confused with the Army?  Does it even happen at all?  If so, who cares?

Yes, it does happen and many CAP members do care.  I couldn't care less if someone confused us with admirals from the Nebraska Navy.

CAP is not a SAR organization, but if we were, then perhaps we should focus on a "SAR uniform".  But if we were solely a SAR organization, I would suggest that a uniform not be worn at all, but what makes you comfortable and safe.

I wouldn't go so far to say no uniform,  but  it's defining the uniform, and I concur completely that a uniform (or SAR clothing) needs to be comfortable and safe.

Have you flown on a mission before?  It should be a requirement for all GTLs to be Observer qualified.

As a matter of fact I have flown on missions as a CAP observer (SAR and CD), and more than just a few.  I also fly as a non-CAP observer on non-CAP aircraft.  I know very well what persons and objects on the ground look like from the air. 

GTLs and GTMs need to be be at least scanner.  Ground resources need to know what it's like from the air.  And because we're members of an aviation oriented organization, agencies believe that CAP ground team members know more about aviation than most do.   CAP ground personnel have been asked to assist with interpretation of NTAP data, aero charts, etc. because other agencies don't understand aviation at all.  I also think that all aircrew members should spend time on a ground team, in an air/ground scenario, to see how it works from the ground.

Overweight out of shape adults stomping through the woods in the middle of summer are far more of a concern to me than BDUs.

No arguments from me.

Wearing khaki cargo pants and an orange t-shirt for SAR is no different than wearing BDUs and an orange vest.

Agree again.  That's the issue.  With web gear or a pack on, the amount of orange that a T-shirt or vest provides is minimal, so we shouldn't try to reduce visual recognition of personnel any more than necessary.

Camo BDUs (and web gear) aside, I think you'd find that we agree on more GT issues than not.

Mike

[floridacyclist]

Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?

Since Reuters posted a picture of 2 CAP cadets carrying a cooler with a caption reading "Soldiers deliver supplies to shelter in West Palm Beach". I emailed them but it was still there a few days later. I'd post a link but can't find one.

[brasda91]

I agree that presenting a "uniform" appearance is important, but when you factor in the cadets that may have limited funds, you have to be flexible in the equipment.  What is more important is the quality of training they receive.  That doesn't hinge on funds, for each cadet can receive the same training no matter what their income.

[Dragoon]

I agree that presenting a "uniform" appearance is important, but when you factor in the cadets that may have limited funds, you have to be flexible in the equipment.  What is more important is the quality of training they receive.  That doesn't hinge on funds, for each cadet can receive the same training no matter what their income.

Except that ES is not a part of the cadet program.

While I'm all about lowering the financial bar for being a cadet, doing ES is about a real world mission. Cadets can participate - but that's an optional thing for them.   If certain equipment or uniforms would make the job better or safer, they should be mandated.

[jimmydeanno]

phew...and all this time I thought I was a civilian volunteer giving my time to help save lives...

I'm glad I'm not in most of your squadrons, because the additional "expense" in purchasing your required gear would drive me away.  SO WHAT if a guy has a backpack instead of an A.L.I.C.E. pack?  As long as he has the right gear for what he's doing.  Personally, I find A.L.I.C.E packs uncomfortable, with or without the frame.  If you mandated that I HAD to use one in the field, you'd lose a volunteer.

People need to have comfort in their gear, know where their stuff is, how to use it, and most importantly BE TRAINED. 

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE is going to turn away HELP to find someone because they don't all have the same compass, or same backpack...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies. 

While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.  I don't see anyone doubting the guys credibility in the first picture...

[sarmed1]

...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies.
While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.

However true, joe shmo shows up and ask to help they usually take him too, buts it what they taks those people to do that matters.  And yes first impressions in the ES community do matter, whether you are CAP, the Fire Department, EMS or a regular SAR team.

An EMT instructor once was lecturing in class on proffesional attributes of EMT's, what he said I still take to heart.  "It doesnt matter how much you know or how good your skills even the best paramedic, if his shirt is dirty and wrinkled and has food stains down the front, hair uncombed and boots untied, people are going to think he is a scumbag and in turn figure if he cant keep himself neat, and clean (easy tasks for anyone) and take pride in his apperance how could he be smart enough or good enough to provide top notch care.

The same theroy applies here.  If a team looks like a motley bunch of characters thrown togeher with a hodgepoge of gear and uniforms, the "pro" rescuers will assume thats their skill base as well.  No its not an asumption, as a previous non-CAP SAR team assistant chief thats the way many team leaders perceive even each others team let alone the "helpful" volunteers.  Hardley any team out there wants the "help" of the local volunteer  to actually go out and search, unless its well into the search (greater than 3 days) and we just need bodies to walk in a straight line and look for the corpse, because on perception they are a bunch of good natured folks but untrained in a mix of turnout gear, hunting clothes or street clothing some have water some have food some have radios  but generally they are more of a risk than an asset.

Sure I am not going to tell someone to pack thier toys and go home from my squadron if they have a jansport day pack if everyone else has an ALICE pack, but if I have picked ALICE gear as a standard in my unit, its not based on because I want to be out here looking like GI Joe, its likely more based on the capability of the gear to haul the equipment that the team needs and the durability of the gear to hold up under adverse conditions.  Which is the real benefit to military gear.  Certainly if you can show me why a differant peice of gear you have is better than what I specify I am just as inclined to give it the go ahead.

CAP is not alone in this attitude.  I have been a volunteer with many organizations SAR, fire departments and EMS agencies.  If they dont provide the gear or uniforms, they tell you that if bringing your own it most conform to whatever standards they choose.  If you disagree you dont have to come out and play.

mk

[Stonewall]

phew...and all this time I thought I was a civilian volunteer giving my time to help save lives...

I'm glad I'm not in most of your squadrons, because the additional "expense" in purchasing your required gear would drive me away.  SO WHAT if a guy has a backpack instead of an A.L.I.C.E. pack?  As long as he has the right gear for what he's doing.  Personally, I find A.L.I.C.E packs uncomfortable, with or without the frame.  If you mandated that I HAD to use one in the field, you'd lose a volunteer.

People need to have comfort in their gear, know where their stuff is, how to use it, and most importantly BE TRAINED. 

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE is going to turn away HELP to find someone because they don't all have the same compass, or same backpack...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies. 

While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.  I don't see anyone doubting the guys credibility in the first picture...

Discipline comes with uniformity.  Doing your job correctly comes from discipline.  My point has always been to implement and support a competent, professional and effective ground SAR group, within my squadron.  Not only a SAR team, but a CAP squadron that also does SAR.

Setting standards within a squadron for things like "gear set up" is no different than handing you a 39-1 when you join CAP and say here ya go, this is how you have to do it.  If you looked at 39-1 and said, I ain't wearing no goofy wanna-be military uniform, you just lost a volunteer.  I'd say okay, obviously we're not for you.  No loss on our part.

I have never forced anyone to buy anything.  Like I said in my above posts, we acquired squadron gear to loan out to people who didn't have their own gear for ES activities.  Is that a bad thing?  No one ever got upset because we issued them a large ALICE pack with a frame instead of a Blackhawk hooah pack with internal frame.  

I could show you countless pictures of several of my members with things other than standard issue LBE.  From aviation survival vests to AK-47 chest rigs to a friggin school book bag.  You think I'd send someone packing because of that?  I'd say I'm a bit more civil than that and have a heckuva lot more successful experiences working with cadets and seniors than you give me credit for.

We taught the basics of gear for CAP ES and showed them "A WAY".  It happened to be a basic concept that worked.  We could have gone round and round with choosing different gear set ups and trying to find manufacturers to build us the ultimate SAR kit for our squadron.  But instead, we took something that works and had worked for years on end; something that was easy to obtain; not expensive and wouldn't ruin Cadet Binky's Jansport school backpack.

And there ain't nothing wrong with bringing uniformity (read: discipline) to emergency services.  Again, I feel CAP ES is an excellent venue for some of the higher ranking cadets to exercise what they've learned in the cadet program in leadership, management and responsibility.  YMMV and probably does.

[jimmydeanno]

Certainly if you can show me why a differant peice of gear you have is better than what I specify I am just as inclined to give it the go ahead.

But then you have a hodge podged group of people with all different equipment, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place...  You are talking about having the right gear for what you are doing, so am I.  I will not contest that when participating in ES having the RIGHT GEAR to perform your function is crutial, and if you don't want to have the RIGHT GEAR then don't show up, but as you stated, as long as it meets the standards for doing what you need it to, it should be fine (backpack, alice pack, compass, gloves, etc)

I completly agree with you about you appearance in regards general sloppiness (i.e. food stains, wrinkles, etc.), stuff like that gives the wrong appearance.  Even the ARMY who issues it's equipment has variations that the soldiers use (camelbacks, etc), we don't call them "hodge podged."

I think there is a definite line where madating specific gear for volunteers does more harm to the organization than good.  Showing up for a search the local and state agencies should know what your capabilities are; park of the public relations bit (building a relationship with state agencies, etc.).