Would you stay in CAP if there were no Emergency Services & Operations?

[Eclipse]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

Read my entire post....I was a scout leader before I was a father.

I hereby grant you "glowing exception" status, which you should have read into the original statement.
It is still creepy in general.

You lose ES, you lose the program. Period

[DNall]

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

The fact that YOUR personal experience has not included more in ES than "crap" doesn't mean it is like that in other parts of the country, nor does it mean our ES program is "BS".

Actually I've been on 15 or so REDCAPs, including the find on one of those. I've ridden around in both CG & NG helicopters. Had the thunderbirds give pireps on a signal when we couldn't fly. Worked closely with life-flight & police dept helos. Worked with state & federal fixed wing on fires. Done I guess around 10 disasters from flood to tonado to hurricane. Climbed all over international freighters & multi-million dollar yatchs. I've seen & done a lot of cool stuff... then the new wore off.

I don't really like getting woke up at 3am for what is 99.995% chance a non-distress situation. And by the way I did 90% of that stuff in my first 3-4 years in the org, when missions flowed hard & fast I was in with a highspeed crew that couldn't get enough. Between the volume not being enough to incentivize me keeping current & overall not feeling like I'm making a significant difference in the world with these piss-ant missions, I'm just not personally motivated.

Far as the one org, they got fire & LE explorer programs, help with one of those at the volunteer fire dept & you're all set. I think you'll find as NIMS overtakes us & we make the adjustment that ES operators will have to spend significantly more time focused on that training, to the exclusion of things like cadet programs, and that barrier to entry will tend to keep cadet programs officers exclusive in their area.

[lordmonar]

I think you'll find as NIMS overtakes us & we make the adjustment that ES operators will have to spend significantly more time focused on that training, to the exclusion of things like cadet programs, and that barrier to entry will tend to keep cadet programs officers exclusive in their area.

And this is bad in what way?  CP and ES ARE seperate programs.  CP officers should be focusing on their area of expertise and ES officers should be focusing on training.

If the ES mission went away...I would say that there is a 50/50 chance that CAP would fold all together.  But it does not have to.  The CP does not really take all that money to run.  The Boy Scouts run a lot of programs with very little money.  Even if the USAF stopped funding the cadet program (but still continued supporting CAP the same way it supports BSA/GSA) we could still keep the programs going.  A lot of the NCSAs would have to be dropped and/or would cost a lot more but they could still be done.

I have a problem with you saying the ES mission is BS and at the same time talking about the doom and gloom of CAP if we don't get NIMS compliant.  Why get compliant if it all BS?  Even if we are NIMS compliant we will still be responding to a lot of false alarms, that will not change one bit.

On that same note....I think you have lost all credibilty on making any comments on CAP ES program with your comment "Between the volume not being enough to incentivize me keeping current & overall not feeling like I'm making a significant difference in the world with these piss-ant missions, I'm just not personally motivated. "

All missions are important...even the ones where the ELT is sitting on the ramp.  If you are too good for the "piss-ant missions", I don't want you on my mission base.  It is attitudes like that why we have so much trouble getting good trained crews in the first place.  Team members are just too good to spend all that time at the SAREXs....but they want to be called out for the missions, by golly.

I was on a Volunteer Fire Department and in the 30-40 calls I responded too only about 4-5 were actual fires.....but I responded to all of them and I was at all the training and meetings.

I have been ES qualified for about six months now and have not been called out on any missions yet (put on stand-by for one) but I go to each and every SAREX and do what ever job they want me to do....sign in, breifings, baby sitting cadets, what ever.  Why?  Because training makes you ready to do the job the USAF wants us to do and every job at the mission base is imporatant to the big machine and must be done right.

I'll keep working on staying trained and ready as an ES operator and still support the CP and AE programs.  It is possible to do both.

[flyerthom]

Most likely I'd transition to DMAT.

[DNall]

And this is bad in what way?  CP and ES ARE seperate programs.  CP officers should be focusing on their area of expertise and ES officers should be focusing on training.

Not at all, I think it's good. Officers in the military aren't expert in every field, just teh set of specialties around their own.

I think if you keep ES & cut cadets the program folds, and likewise if you keep cadets & cut ES the program folds. No part of the program is strong enough to stand alone, and that makes for some good things about CAP.

I have a problem with you saying the ES mission is BS and at the same time talking about the doom and gloom of CAP if we don't get NIMS compliant.  Why get compliant if it all BS?  Even if we are NIMS compliant we will still be responding to a lot of false alarms, that will not change one bit.

I don't have a doom & gloom attitude about NIMS or ES or much of anything. I've pointed out that we are in a bad place if we are non-compliant, and trending worse as long as we maintain that course, OR we can change course & get compliant which is hard but will revolutionize CAP in a good way (even if that scares a lot of people), and on the back side we become basically professional responders w/o the pay check, which is excellent. That's not doom & gloom, that's get off your butt before you get crushed & lets move out together motivational. If you don't like the way I advocate the position, well sorry.

All missions are important...even the ones where the ELT is sitting on the ramp.  If you are too good for the "piss-ant missions", I don't want you on my mission base.  It is attitudes like that why we have so much trouble getting good trained crews in the first place.  Team members are just too good to spend all that time at the SAREXs....but they want to be called out for the missions, by golly.

I didn't join for ES, I never wanted any part of ES from the begining, and still don't. What I have done & still do is out of obligation cause there's no one else locally & the Sq & are Gp need the qual'd & experienced people. So I'm willing to do that, BUT if someone else is qual'd & gunning to go then by all means send them & leave me alone. I think you'll find the reason it's hard ot get good crews is cause the best people need to feel like they are doing something critical to change the world & turining off an ELT once or twice a month isn't going to do that for them.

I have been ES qualified for about six months now and have not been called out on any missions yet (put on stand-by for one) but I go to each and every SAREX and do what ever job they want me to do....sign in, breifings, baby sitting cadets, what ever.  Why?  Because training makes you ready to do the job the USAF wants us to do and every job at the mission base is imporatant to the big machine and must be done right.

Of course that's right, and good for you doing your part. Hey man, when I was younger, ES wasn't really what I wanted to do, but I was all fired up about doing it anyway. Call me back when you got a few hundred missions under your belt & don't like it anymore. I'm not slighting people that do ES, hey more power to you. For me though, I've always been a cadet programs officer, that's why I joined & what I want to do.

I made what I think is a big contribution in ES, and then moved on to helping at a couple NCASEs & doing some pretty cool stuff for AE, and about four or five years in I became a competent officer & started to actually make a difference in CP. Now I'm starting to get a little fed up with that, not CP in general, but the amount of effort I put in for a relatively small number of people I get to impact. I think moving up echelons would be the answer there, and I'd like to work more in Professional Development too, but I'm about to get real busy here in a couple months & we'll have to see where the priorities are 18mos from now.

[Eclipse]

I think if you keep ES & cut cadets the program folds, and likewise if you keep cadets & cut ES the program folds. No part of the program is strong enough to stand alone, and that makes for some good things about CAP.

I don't take issue with anything in that response other than this part.

Its simply not the reality.  The ES can and does stand on its own today.

The majority of the funding, radios, planes, vehicles, and members are in it for the ES side.

There is not one single cadet unit in CAP without seniors.

There are already LOTS of very active units in CAP without a single cadet. (PWK was one of them before I took over).

[DNall]

And not all seniors have anything to do with ES, in fact tons do not. That's a misnomer that seems real in some units & some parts of the world, but it's nto universal by far.

ES is for darn sure a major part of what we do. However, administration of one third the organization is more than twice the amount actually spent on ES. If it costs more to field the force than the benefit returned, then it becomes real debatable.

I do appreciate what we do in ES, but honestly a lot of non-distress beacons, and when we get on the scene of something real we have to call in someone else to do the rescue portion... to those 20-50 people we save a year it's no doubt worth every penny, but on the whole you're going to have to make a real strong case for why states can't do the same thing if given our gear & training funds, and do it better since they already have the EMS folks on hand. Why does it have to be CAP ES & no other alternative? And show the federal financials for each option, don't count state funds. How you answer that against opposition is the justification you have to make to keep it alive.

As it is though, both sides can argue it into a gray area, and as long as you got AF w/ a sentimental attachment & a cadet program plus AE as bonus, then they can sell it to congress as a footnote in their big priorities. Stand alone though? That's a harsh world you're wanting to face there my friend. I have a lot of appreciation for the warm cozy parts of our current situation, and merely want to stretch an arm out here or there to bring in more that makes us more useful/better & encourages the good thing we have going. ... Respectfully!!

[Major Carrales]

And not all seniors have anything to do with ES, in fact tons do not. That's a misnomer that seems real in some units & some parts of the world, but it's nto universal by far.

ES is for darn sure a major part of what we do. However, administration of one third the organization is more than twice the amount actually spent on ES. If it costs more to field the force than the benefit returned, then it becomes real debatable.

I do appreciate what we do in ES, but honestly a lot of non-distress beacons, and when we get on the scene of something real we have to call in someone else to do the rescue portion... to those 20-50 people we save a year it's no doubt worth every penny, but on the whole you're going to have to make a real strong case for why states can't do the same thing if given our gear & training funds, and do it better since they already have the EMS folks on hand. Why does it have to be CAP ES & no other alternative? And show the federal financials for each option, don't count state funds. How you answer that against opposition is the justification you have to make to keep it alive.

As it is though, both sides can argue it into a gray area, and as long as you got AF w/ a sentimental attachment & a cadet program plus AE as bonus, then they can sell it to congress as a footnote in their big priorities. Stand alone though? That's a harsh world you're wanting to face there my friend. I have a lot of appreciation for the warm cozy parts of our current situation, and merely want to stretch an arm out here or there to bring in more that makes us more useful/better & encourages the good thing we have going. ... Respectfully!!

I would say that 95 percent of the people in our unti are WHOLE CAP types that place lots of value on ES and Cadet Programs.   They are literally, Minutemen of the Skies and take pride in that.

I think it is a misnomer to think that people are so notched into only one groove.

[DNall]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

[lordmonar]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

None of this stuff is rocket science.  You most certainly can be competant in all three areas if you have the time for it.  I am SLS away from being a Senior Rated CP guy....I am ES qualified and I am currently the AE officer for my squadron.....and I am pretty good in all three areas.

Nothing NIMS is going to do will make it any harder to do that.

[DNall]

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, nothing I'd hold others to, but I think as it sits now you can be basically competent & effective in all three things. However, I do not thing you can be expert, & certainly not superman in both sides of the house.

No offense, but the specialty ratings don't mean much. Even the hardest ones aren't much more than checking off a fairly simple list & punching the clock. You can easily do that, but it doesn't make you really great at anything, just minimally competent, and not always that given the quality control.

I've been involved in some stuff int he past & with the assistant I'm working with now that I'd say is pretty darn top 1-2% level stuff. I don't know if I'd call it rocket science, it's not that difficult, but it is on par with top-notch real mil field grade line officer quality stuff. I don't think we're particularly special by the way, just knowledgable & experienced line officers.

I don't see how it's possible, even full-time with a paycheck, to attain & maintain that level in more than one thing at a time. Maybe that's what it means to be a general, I don't know I'm not that good yet, and maybe never will be. I can contribute to both, I can be competent in both, but no way in hell can I be top of the field in both at the same time, not a chance.

I know my assistant could be an amazing ES operator if he had the time or desire for it. He spent 12 years enlisted, started out in comm, did base honor guard at lackland, qual'd PJ then got hurt, commissioned PA flight nurse, did some cool stuff in Katrina, back from in-res SOS, captain now in active reserves on flight status & about to make his 20, did some cool stuff in Katrina. I'd call him very highspeed, and we're playing off each other quite well & learning a lot from each other as we go. He's in for his two kids though, and I'll be happy to give him my job when I leave.

[lordmonar]

Ain't no one paying for any experts here!

Secondly....unless you are retired and doing nothing else but CAP....how can you be an EXPERT in anything CAP?  I mean you spend 40+ hours a week working.

Finally, who expects anyone to be an expert?  We need you to be completant and it only takes a little reading for 90% of that and a little bit of natural talent.

[DNall]

Component commanders at least need to be experts, & most deputiwa (major dept head-types), preferablly ES officers also. The few experts do officer equiv work managing a bunch of competent or still learning folks who do NCO & airman work.

And yeah it averages out to maybe as much as 20hrs a week outside your faimly & real job to do that, at least for me it does, and yeah that's real hard to maintain. Expert is the standard you should be shooting for in any given job though, and I'm of the oppinion that requires the exclusion of other jobs. I think you need to do some exposure familiarization stuff early on, and then pick a spot, run with it till you burn out & switch to something else that takes over your interest. Eventually you should make major contibutions in each aspect of the program. Most of the people you command though will just be going along doing their little part, and that's fine, but what you need to do is direct their energy & manage the resulting progress to planned objectives. You can get a whole lot done with a little officership. Most people are just begging to be led.

[Tubacap]

As far as our ES being BS.  I have been on ten missions in the last year, including 4 saves.  My five years prior to that have been just as exciting with lots of actual work.    So I would say that we are doing fine in PA as far as getting legit mission work.  Is there room for improvement?  Always. 

As for being experts in the field.  I don't think that I personally will become an expert in any SAR field until I am retired, or take up SAR full time.  Am I more knowledgable than the average citizen out there, sure.  How do I intend to be of service to my community, state, and nation?  I plan on working hard to actively gain knowledge in the specialties that are most needed within my chain of command. This is already ingrained in many of our members, at least the ones that I work with on a mission to mission basis. 

When I first joined, my Deputy Commander for Seniors (now officers I guess???) told me that the reason why he stayed in was because of the associations he made within the organization, and the type of people that are in CAP.  As I have gone through the program, I feel the same way.  Nearly all CAP Personnel that I have been associated with are professional, knowledgable, and know their limitations.  They are constantly willing to improve themselves through self analysis and critical analysis from the outside.  The binding element for most, not all, but most of the seniors that I work with however is ES.  Many are driven by CP, but still tied to ES.

[ZigZag911]

I'd almost certainly stay if ES went away....but I'd really miss it!  And I think it would be a detriment to CP, take away an important element for training and service from CP.

[IronRangerMN]

Without ES, the enitre squadron im in would be deserted. And we have 60 people on the roster. ES is all we, the cadets, do. I could not care any less about AE. Flying my be kinda fun and different from the norm, but its more of a senior member pilot thing for us. And cadets meet on Tues, not Monday like our senior members. We have whole different senior members in control of the cadets on Tues. Most are former military or along those lines.

I would not stay in for a minute after the rest of my team dropped out.

[afgeo4]

I would stay, but it would be a cadet program, not CAP. CAP is Civil Air Patrol. Take out Air and Patrol and...

Well... it would just be another after school program for teenagers.

[ZigZag911]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

I think you are quite correct on this....my personal observation has been that, as officers move up in responsibility and tenure in the program, they tend to shift, by and large, either to senior command or to senior level training mentoring responsibilities....generally involving less frequent direct contact with cadets...and also involving responsibilities on the mission management end of ES.

[connelly]

That is a tough one. I live by SAR. If i was not wit CAP SAR i would leave and go into the fire dept. or something.

[escadet91]

i'm a cadet and yea i would stay in cap but i wouldn't like it much i mean helping people and going out and searching for down aircraft is awsome no i havent yet but i have been out on missing person(s) searches