Taking Grandma skydiving

[Major Lord]

Maybe this was not such a good idea.....

Skydiving Gone Bad - Grandma Falls Out of Tandem Harness

Major Lord

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yeah, bad idea. I was expecting worse to happen after I saw how she was folded in half in the harness.

[NIN]

The idea was fine. The execution? Yeah, not so much.

[Flying Pig]

I used to fly for a skydiving operation. In a 182 or a 206 many times you have to jump even when the person doesnt want to because everyone else is stuck in the plane. I did a run once where it was just the instructor and the student   As soon as the door opened I could hear her screaming "No" and she went spread eagle in the plane.  The instructor gave me the abort sign, I kicked in some hard left rudder and slammed the door shut and down we went.  I think the ride scared her more than the jump would have!
This old lady in the video was clearly refusing to go and they forced her out. In a King Air there was no reason not to abort the jump and ride the plane home. If it was a young person yeah maybe I could see pushing them out.  But 80 yr old grandma, she refuses,  you waddle back to your seat. That instructor needs his common sense checked. In this case the instructor wasnt going to be robbed of "his" jump.

[a2capt]

How was the camera operator hanging around outside the plane like that? I would think that the slipstream would be insane to hang on like that, so steadily.

[NIN]

How was the camera operator hanging around outside the plane like that? I would think that the slipstream would be insane to hang on like that, so steadily.

https://vimeo.com/42696111

(thats video I shot, all of it from outside the plane)

Depending on the type of aircraft, there are any number of external handles or proturbances to grab (However, as I have been reminded repeatedly, keep your nasty fingers off the flap mechanism on a Twin Otter!).  Some Twin Otters are equipped with very prominent external "floater bars" that stretch the length of the door, but most rely on a single bar just up under the inside of the door. (This is our plane: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie_m/2202719698/# The cameraman gets a single handle above the baggage door, and a step below it.)  King Airs that I've jumped have had everything from a sheetmetal drip-lip over top of the door to a full set of steps and floater bars that were more substantial than those found in a handicapped bathroom.

Then its just a matter of the pilot flying the aircraft at the appropriate speed on jump run.  80kts is standard, as I recall, in a Twin Otter.  King Airs tend to be a little faster.

You can hang on just fine in 80kts of wind.

[RADIOMAN015]

OK, I'm a bit confused, she did have a straps between her legs and that's what kept her from getting killed right

Also aren't those straps on the double tandem suppose to be tighter to prevent this from happening (also with another strap that goes horizontally across ).

I've been thinking about doing this for my next birthday.   Perhaps I'll wear my CAP uniform or buy a flight suit and put all those CAP required patches on it and upload it to you tube titled   .." Join CAP,  it's  an adventure"  :angel:
RM

[RogueLeader]

Sorry, as you are well aware,or should be anyways, that parachuting is not allowed by cap regulation. Otherwise combat control orientation course students WOULD jump. Most of them anyways.

[Major Lord]

And we all follow regulations about uniforms to the letter, don't we? To me, as a climber, and an admitted parachute-phobic ( i.e., sane) member of the public, it appears to me that grandma's harness was not able to be fit properly, due to her sloped shoulders and atypical body configuration. Even if they found a harness to fit correctly, it appears that the instructor actually forced her to jump, which I suspect is not the industry best-practice for a recreational tandem jump. I suppose it could be argued that if she never actually said "no" ( not that you would probably hear it) than the instructor causing her to let go of the door frame was for her own protection, since old people can be dislocated pretty easy, even without throwing them bodily out of an aircraft ( I suggest we experiment on this with some of our more cantankerous Senior members)

If anyone ever arranged a CAP group jump, in Uniform, I think it would just have to be done, fear or no!  What would Billy Mitchell ( May he live forever in the halls of Valhalla) do?

Major Lord

[NIN]

Sorry, as you are well aware,or should be anyways, that parachuting is not allowed by cap regulation. Otherwise combat control orientation course students WOULD jump. Most of them anyways.

Oh dear. It appears I violated a CAP regulation?

"Pardon me, cadets, whilst I dead-center my target here.."

[NIN]

OK, I'm a bit confused, she did have a straps between her legs and that's what kept her from getting killed right

Also aren't those straps on the double tandem suppose to be tighter to prevent this from happening (also with another strap that goes horizontally across ).

She did have the harness on, but it was definitely not fitted correctly, nor was the fit confirmed at hookup time.

BTW, the original video has been made private, but a copy has shown up here: skydiving goes bad

As you can see from about the 2:10 mark onward, as they're waddling around at the door, the leg straps wind up working their way more towards the lady's knees and her butt winds up out the back of the harness.  A properly fitted harness shouldn't do this.  With an 80 year old lady who has limited mobility, there are WAY better ways to exit the airplane than this, too.    If I don't miss my guess, the lateral straps (the ones attaching the hips of the passenger harness to the hips of the rig harness) were not properly tightened, either.

The exit did not improve things any, as they went unstable immediately, and then started whats called a "sidespin" where basically the tandem pax and the tandem instructor get separated a little bit (due to the loose laterals) body position-wise, and it creates a propeller-like effect which exacerbates the spin and puts them on their side, which is a non-optimal place for drogue deployment.  This appears to generate a lot of centrifugal force and it looks like it forces her even further out of the harness. 

There are some harnesses now that have a "Y" modification made to them which basically links the legstraps to the back harness to prevent the pax from "submarining" out of the harness. There is at least one  tandem fatality attributed to a passenger with an unusual body shape and poorly fitted harness going right out the back side of the harness on deployment.. Not pretty.

I've been thinking about doing this for my next birthday.   Perhaps I'll wear my CAP uniform or buy a flight suit and put all those CAP required patches on it and upload it to you tube titled   .." Join CAP,  it's  an adventure"  :angel:

Jumptown in Orange is your best bet.  Its close and has a great safety record.

And we all follow regulations about uniforms to the letter, don't we? To me, as a climber, and an admitted parachute-phobic ( i.e., sane) member of the public, it appears to me that grandma's harness was not able to be fit properly, due to her sloped shoulders and atypical body configuration. Even if they found a harness to fit correctly, it appears that the instructor actually forced her to jump, which I suspect is not the industry best-practice for a recreational tandem jump. I suppose it could be argued that if she never actually said "no" ( not that you would probably hear it) than the instructor causing her to let go of the door frame was for her own protection, since old people can be dislocated pretty easy, even without throwing them bodily out of an aircraft ( I suggest we experiment on this with some of our more cantankerous Senior members)

Actually, she was recently interviewed due to the notoriety surrounding the video (the jump was actually a year ago), and she said she was willing to jump, but that she was grabbing the door for stability since her knees were giving out.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/video/7332367-80-year-old-falls-out-of-parachute-harness-after-jump/

Here's how a tandem jump is really supposed to go (lets see if this link works):
http://www.facebook.com/v/497841169408

If anyone ever arranged a CAP group jump, in Uniform, I think it would just have to be done, fear or no!  What would Billy Mitchell ( May he live forever in the halls of Valhalla) do?

Billy Mitchell wouldn't do it, because he wouldn't be breaking any rules if he did so.

Please point to the spot in the regs that prohibits senior members from parachuting.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't understand what the argument is about. You have to get to the CAP meeting/activity somehow. You took a plane to the area, but instead of landing and parking a whole plane, you landed and parked yourself.

In seriousness, no CAP doesn't jump, but if you get an okay to do so for whoa factor with cadets or others, why the heck not... If ou already know what you are doing. I know if I got the chance to, I would jump in my BDUs/zoom bag.

[peter rabbit]

Skydiving is not on my bucket list, nor is flying with a wingsuit: Wingsuit Man lands sucessfully from 2400 feet with NO parachute To those that do, I wish you well and a safe journey.

[Major Lord]

"Billy Mitchell wouldn't do it, because he wouldn't be breaking any rules if he did so"

Please point to the spot in the regs that prohibits senior members from parachuting.

Wait, Billy Mitchell would only do it if it WAS against the rules? There is no rule against S/M's jumping out of an airplane as far as I know, and if they do, parachutes are not even required to be worn. Cadets must be thrown from aircraft ( It's in the back of the reg's somewhere, I am sure of it!) when there are no witnesses.

Major Lord

[NIN]

Wait, Billy Mitchell would only do it if it WAS against the rules? There is no rule against S/M's jumping out of an airplane as far as I know, and if they do, parachutes are not even required to be worn. Cadets must be thrown from aircraft ( It's in the back of the reg's somewhere, I am sure of it!) when there are no witnesses.

Exactly.

[Flying Pig]

Wait, Billy Mitchell would only do it if it WAS against the rules? There is no rule against S/M's jumping out of an airplane as far as I know, and if they do, parachutes are not even required to be worn. Cadets must be thrown from aircraft ( It's in the back of the reg's somewhere, I am sure of it!) when there are no witnesses.

Exactly.

This is going to take this thread into a whole nuther' dimension.....but

I would have to say though, Billy Mitchell was doing what he believed was right.  Not just because it was against the rules.  Going against the grain and challenging flawed, lazy thinking can be a grey area.  #1, Is it really the hill you want to die on?  #2 Are willing to take the hit when your views are rejected? #3 You better hope it works like you said it would 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Is it really the hill you want to die on? #3 You better hope it works like you said it would 

MAJOR SNIP SNIP TO INTENTIONALLY TAKE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT...

Especially when it comes to skydiving HA!

[Major Lord]

I think its important to remember that Billy Mitchell was thrown out of the military in disgrace for his views, and died disowned by his own government ( there is a lot of that going around) He was only reinstated posthumously, but my guess is that he is not in a position to appreciate his new-found reclamation by USAF as one of our best visionaries and men of integrity. He has a lot in common with Galileo. This pattern is seen over and over again throughout history, and demonstrates that martyrs are saints are people of such clear integrity and truth, that no one can stand to have them around and feel obliged to imprison or kill them! ( Of course, history treats jerks this way too, so only history will reveal the context) I don't think anyone is "standing up to power" and claiming that skydiving is the wave of the future for CAP, but its pretty clear that there is a bounce-back against the safety Nazi's who would have us believe that our mission is safety, not, well, our actual mission(s), Or the barracks lawyers who can find a reason to prevent CAP from ever moving past its current position of eternal rest ( A guy named Ike Newton had some thoughts on objects at rest, and it does not bode well for CAP)

My offer stands, If anyone wants to arrange a static line or free fall training as a non-CAP activity ( the tandem jump is just too,.... well, you know...) I will be happy to go out that door, in CAP Uniform! ( We may have to wear Tango-style hoods and black out our name tapes to prevent retaliation though!)

Major Lord

[BillB]

Toss cadets out of the aircraft?   I have this mental picture of the cadet waving his arms like an eagle singing "Take to the air junior birdman".

[NIN]

My offer stands, If anyone wants to arrange a static line or free fall training as a non-CAP activity ( the tandem jump is just too,.... well, you know...) I will be happy to go out that door, in CAP Uniform! ( We may have to wear Tango-style hoods and black out our name tapes to prevent retaliation though!)

I might suggest a trip to the wind tunnel in SF Bay first.  Thats a very cadet-friendly activity, too

http://archive.cadetstuff.org/archives/000532.html#000532

Back when I was a squadron commander, our nearest MCSS was Hanscom, which is a pretty good hoof for the uninitated, so a couple weeks into each CBT cycle we'd saddle up the squadron van on a Saturday and take all our newbies down to get uniform parts.   The first time we did it, we wound up being done and back on the road literally like 90 minutes early (and, you know, I didn't want to hang around Hanscom near the BX lest we be mistaken for some folks trolling for salutes or something, and getting back 90 minutes early would virtually ensure that we were standing around with our thumbs in our ears for that entire time waiting for parents to show), so we took a quick detour to my DZ on the way home, since it was literally about 5 miles off the exit.  I did an impromptu tour of the hangar, let the cadets check out the aircraft, and we sat and watched the jumpers land for about 45 minutes or so before it was time to load up and head to the barn.

It was quite a good opportunity, really, and totally off the cuff, but we started doing it every time we went to the MCSS.

[lordmonar]

My offer stands, If anyone wants to arrange a static line or free fall training as a non-CAP activity ( the tandem jump is just too,.... well, you know...) I will be happy to go out that door, in CAP Uniform! ( We may have to wear Tango-style hoods and black out our name tapes to prevent retaliation though!)

Major Lord

I'm in....Nin can be JM!

[COL Land]

My offer stands, If anyone wants to arrange a static line or free fall training as a non-CAP activity ( the tandem jump is just too,.... well, you know...) I will be happy to go out that door, in CAP Uniform!

The U.S. Army Cadet Corps' (USAC) last day of Annual Training (AT) at the National Cadet Training Center (NCTC) in Millersburg, Kentucky, will be August 4th, 2012.  By that time, we will have completed two 2-week Basic Cadet Training sessions; a three-week Cadet Basic Leader Course; a three-week Cadet Ranger Challenge and three-week Cadet Ranger School; two-week Cadet Military Police Academy and more.  Many Cadets will have been with us the entire summer a total of seven weeks.   Of course, many of our Cadets would love to jump as part of one of our training progarms; however, that is obviously an activity that's well outside the scope of our insurance. 

However, it has become traditional for USAC personnel, after the final graduation of the summer, and when all of the Cadets and cadre have officially checked-out from the NCTC (and are now on their own time), to go a drop zone in Ohio (near Cincinnati) for the "First Jump Course."   That drop zone is one of the very few in the country who will train and jump 16-year-olds on a static line jump (they will jump 16-year-old USAC Cadets only...no exceptions)  Incidentally, they also offer their military discount to all USAC personnel.  This allows those Cadets and cadre to earn their USAC Basic Parachutist wings, while staying within the confines of our regulations and insurance coverage, and at an affordable price.   

Although this activity is not authorized for wear of the complete USAC uniform, virtually all will wear the official USAC PT shirt and jeans, creating a uniform appearance.  Once the first jump is completed, all personnel then shift into a USAC uniform to receive their wings. 



Shown above, left to right: C/PO1 Joseph M. Land, Jr. (now 2LT, USAC); MAJ Bill McDonald; WWII Veteran of the 101st Abn MSG Joseph W. Crawford; C/PO2 Allen and C/PO1 Carrera Blum after having received their jump wings from MSG Crawford.  The above photo was taken in 2005 or so. Joseph is now a 2LT, USAC; Bill is a DA Civilian; Ms. Allen is a police office; Carerra is a Marine Wife and going to school. I'm very proud of all of them!  MSG Crawford - a former POW and Purple Heart and Bronze Star veteran (and my grandfather) presented the wings.  More recently, he was the Guest of Honor for USAC's Anniversary Ball last year...tearing up the dance floor at age 88!  When asked what he thought about jumping, he said "The first jump was great...the second was a son of a b*tch...that's when you realize how crazy it is to do this!"   Wise words!

Once back on the ground, having completed their first jump, our personnel are then authorized to change into uniform to be "pinned" with their USAC-specific wings:



Of note, Cadets must have a parent/guardian present during this event and the parent is solely responsible for all decisions and releases involved with this activity.  USAC simply recognizes the qualification through a badge; however, we are very careful to ensure that the activity is not publicized on our website, contained in a training schedule or can - in any way - be seen an an official USAC activity.

With all that said, Maj Lord, we'd be glad to make you an "Army Cadet for the Day"  if you'd like to join in on the 4th of August.  In fact, I might even jump again if you show up!   

Hooah!

[Major Lord]

That sounds absolutely awesome! Let me see if I can break loose from NorCal. Airborne!

Major Lord

[NIN]

I'm in....Nin can be JM!

I ain't no static-line JM. 

[PHall]

I'm in....Nin can be JM!

I ain't no static-line JM. 

What, too complicated for ya?

[COL Land]

Major Lord:

That offer still stands! 

[Major Lord]

Col Land,

Health permitting, I will very much try to go, and I appreciate your kind offer. I am still recovering from a bacterial gut infection I picked up in Katrina that migrated into all kinds of terrible things, and I have to go in for infusions of drugs, chemo, etc. periodically. Occasionally, a cranky girl scout could kick the snot out of me, but if I am in a remission stage (most of the time right now) I would love to do it! Other than showing up, what do I need to do ? FYI, I weigh 220 at 6-3, is this inside their payload envelope? I would hate to set the fastest time to ground record of the USACC! ( Well, I know NIN probably has that, having long since evolved beyond the need for a mere parachute)

Major Lord

[COL Land]

FYI, I weigh 220 at 6-3, is this inside their payload envelope? I would hate to set the fastest time to ground record of the USACC!

MEMORANDUM FOR Personnel Crazy Enough to Jump Out of an Airplane

From:  Staff Judge Advocate, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

1.  You're on your own, bubba!  This ain't a USAC gig.   Jump at your own risk!   

                                                              Love,

                                                              USAC's Legal Beagle
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Joking aside, here is what the http://www.startskydiving.com says:

Weight                    Comments
----------- --------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 200lbs     Almost every DZ should be willing to let you jump.

200-230lbs. The majority of DZ's should be willing to let you jump. Being in relatively good shape is a plus. Beyond about 230lbs, most reserves canopies are no longer strictly legal for you to use.

230-250lbs. Some DZ's may take you, but will likely insist that you be in good shape, i.e. not a couch-potato. You must recognize that there is a greater chance of injury, particularly if you are not somewhat athletic.

Greater than 250lbs. Very few DZ's will be able to let you skydive. They are likely to use converted Tandem gear. Without this type of equipment, you will need to be in excellent physical condition, and be willing to accept an increased chance of injury in case of a bad landing.

Please note that this table is only a guideline. Call us and discuss your weight concerns. Also, there are experienced skydivers who are quite heavy -- however, they likely learned when they were lighter and had mastered landing before gaining the additional weight.

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PM me when the time gets closer.   SFC Tommy Sullivan, our Ranger Instructor and a former Golden Knight, is planning to jump that day.  If CPT Ninness can get out here this summer, I'm certain he would too.    Seriously, I can't track Cadets on this at all, lest it inadvertently becomes an official event...but I'm sure there will be a good handful of folks there on that Sunday.   

If you need three hots and a cot, let us know...Hooah!