Parental advisory: male/female billeting/lavatories informed consent

[NovemberWhiskey]

I would hope that those members would reasonably understand that I'm trying to balance their rights to federally funded cadet programs with the equal rights of parents to not have their minors share quarters with the opposite biological sex. No more, no less.

That's the problem though. From my perspective, you don't get to set those things in the balance. Your opinions on suitable lodgings for your children are not equal to the rights of those who are members that need accommodations in order to participate in CAP. There is no protected class of concerned parents.

(Note: please don't throw your anti-gay racist flag on the play, as you don't know MY life experience or arrangements or my actions to support transgender CAP members).

Let's be entirely clear - I did not and do not in any sense mean to suggest you are anti-gay or racist or anything similar. For all I know, you're a gay, black man. My point was only this: if you start allowing members to weigh-in on or challenge the accommodations made under the non-discrimination policy, that undermines the effectiveness of the policy. The organization has a duty to create transparency around policy; to make it clear how it thinks about reasonable accommodation so no-one is surprised.

That does not extend to the point of including a tick box "only board with same biological sex" on the activity application form, or bespoke peer-to-peer arrangements that achieve the same effect.

Yes, this is a corner case, it is an experience outside the norm for most cadets, it raises liability issues

Eh, not so much? According to a 2021 Pew Research Center survey, 53% of Americans in the 18-29 age range personally know someone who is transgender; and it's a number that increases as you move down the age demographics.

The DOE interprets Title IX as requiring federally-funded schools to allow students to use restrooms and locker rooms consistent with their gender identity. It also requires that students be allowed to use housing consistent with their gender when a school separates housing by sex. Requiring transgender students to use single accommodation when it's not required of cisgender students is also a contravention.

What are these mysterious liability issues you keep alluding to?

So, tonight, yes, money where mouth is.  I have resigned as an NCSA staff member for ETech rather than accept that personal liability for potentially putting males in with females, and my son has submitted his request for reimbursement for his NCSA. I have asked his AD that his money (his own, p/t job money) be reimbursed.

That's absolutely your right, and if it's such a strongly-held viewpoint it sounds like it's going to be the one that works best for you.

[Ned]

The SM in charge of an overnight activity/encampment/NCSA is going to accept the application forms signed by the cadet (and their parents) at face value.

And the form will have one of the binary boxes checked.  And as long as the paperwork is in order, we are not going to second guess it.

We are certainly not going to perform a DNA check or visually inspect a cadet's private parts.  It's hard enough to get seniors to serve as FTOs.

You have mentioned liability a few times.  Can you imagine the liability if we intrusively "verified" a cadets  gender?  I shudder at the thought.

It bears repeating that we have had valued LGBTQI+ members at CAP overnight activities for over 75 years without a significant problem.  Do cadets sometimes misbehave at CAP activities?  Yes, that is inevitable in any youth program.  Which is why we have multiple experienced, mature CP officers at every single overnight activity.

It also bears repeating that all members can request accommodations, including trans members as well as 12 year-olds who have never spent a week away from home in a group situation.

 But we are never going to share a cadet's private medical information with a another cadet (or their parents).

And I suspect we all agree that we want to conduct a challenging cadet program that is inclusive, respectful, and a great deal of fun.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[Capt Thompson]

That's the problem though. From my perspective, you don't get to set those things in the balance. Your opinions on suitable lodgings for your children are not equal to the rights of those who are members that need accommodations in order to participate in CAP. There is no protected class of concerned parents.

So one Cadet has "rights" and another has "opinions," depending on whether or not they are part of a protected class, that seems backwards and contradictory to our core values of respect and excellence. If you respect one Cadet by honoring their reasonable accommodation, you need to have that same respect for the others they will be billeted with and let them know they will be roomed with a member of the biologically opposite sex, and allow them to discuss with their parents and make a reasonable accommodation of their own. What is offered to one Cadet, has to be offered to all.

As I turn on the TV, and see that an inmate at an all female correctional facility just impregnated two other inmates, I can't help but think of this situation happening in CAP. I'm sorry that your daughter became pregnant at Encampment Mr and Mrs Smith, but the other Cadet asked for a reasonable accommodation to be bunked with the female Cadets, and we didn't feel your opinion mattered enough to inform you.

I also think about the Cadets I have in my Squadron that are super religious, to the point where some of them filed a complaint against a Cadet leader for using the word "hell" during a meeting, because swearing is unacceptable. We will accept that as a valid concern, but won't listen if they are concerned about being billeted with a member of the opposite sex? Can you imagine the backlash if something happened, and CAP didn't bother to give them prior warning.

[jeders]

I also think about the Cadets I have in my Squadron that are super religious, to the point where some of them filed a complaint against a Cadet leader for using the word "hell" during a meeting, because swearing is unacceptable. We will accept that as a valid concern, but won't listen if they are concerned about being billeted with a member of the opposite sex?

That shouldn't have been accepted as a valid concern either as there is nothing immoral or indecent about the word hell.

[TheSkyHornet]

I also think about the Cadets I have in my Squadron that are super religious, to the point where some of them filed a complaint against a Cadet leader for using the word "hell" during a meeting, because swearing is unacceptable. We will accept that as a valid concern, but won't listen if they are concerned about being billeted with a member of the opposite sex?

That shouldn't have been accepted as a valid concern either as there is nothing immoral or indecent about the word hell.

And this is exactly why moral leadership became character development. We're not here to decide someone's religious ethos, and, thus, we have our own organizational values.


I think what's being argued here is really missing two key aspects in some of the responses/debate points:

• There are cases in which the activity leaders do not know about a cadet's personal/medical information because it literally is not shared via health information paperwork. In such an event, nobody would know at all, or perhaps not until at the actual activity (or after it's conclusion).
• There are cases in which activity leaders are aware. In these cases, is it permissible or reasonable to inform other parents, or is that a violation of the individual-in-question's privacy?

[Capt Thompson]

That shouldn't have been accepted as a valid concern either as there is nothing immoral or indecent about the word hell.

To you, no, to 8 of my Cadets and their parents, yes. Do I pull aside a Cadet leader and say "hey, tone down the language in front of the Cadets," or do I pull aside 8 Cadets and their parents and tell them their personal feelings on vulgar language are wrong? Now, 2 years later, the Cadet leader has aged out and left the program, and the 8 Cadets are all SNCO's and Officers.....glad I didn't tell the parents they were wrong and their Cadets were allowed to thrive in the program. Any concert a parent or Cadet brings to you should be considered valid, it's not our place to tell them they're wrong to think that way.

Back on topic:

There are cases in which activity leaders are aware. In these cases, is it permissible or reasonable to inform other parents, or is that a violation of the individual-in-question's privacy?

Mrs Smith, there is a possibility your child will be sleeping in the same barracks as someone who is a biological male but identifies as a female. Are you ok with this, or would you like alternate sleeping arrangements for your child? Notice how that statement didn't identify the other child, their name, gender identity, what Squadron they're from, rank they hold, favorite color or ice cream flavor. You can absolutely protect the identity of the transgender Cadet and insure they are included in all aspects of the activity and accommodated, while still having an open and honest conversation with the parents who may object. This isn't a situation where one Cadet gets protected while another can't be, if you can't find a way to protect them both you probably shouldn't be on staff at any overnight activity that involves Cadets.

[NovemberWhiskey]

So one Cadet has "rights" and another has "opinions," depending on whether or not they are part of a protected class, that seems backwards and contradictory to our core values of respect and excellence. If you respect one Cadet by honoring their reasonable accommodation, you need to have that same respect for the others they will be billeted with and let them know they will be roomed with a member of the biologically opposite sex, and allow them to discuss with their parents and make a reasonable accommodation of their own. What is offered to one Cadet, has to be offered to all.

I think you misunderstand the context of reasonable accommodation. It's not a reasonable accommodation when we allow a transgender cadet to billet with cadets of their same gender. The reasonable accommodation occurs when we allow that cadet the use of a private room, or an alternative showering arrangement, because that cadet is uncomfortable about public nudity due to their gender dysphoria - for example. If this makes other feel more comfortable, that is perhaps a useful side effect, but it's not the purpose.

I'm not necessarily an expert, but a request for an accommodation that is invasive of another cadet's privacy, or that requires that another cadet to be treated differently (i.e. requires discrimination; particular where a protected status is involved) is, in my opinion, unlikely to be accepted.

As I turn on the TV, and see that an inmate at an all female correctional facility just impregnated two other inmates, I can't help but think of this situation happening in CAP. I'm sorry that your daughter became pregnant at Encampment Mr and Mrs Smith, but the other Cadet asked for a reasonable accommodation to be bunked with the female Cadets, and we didn't feel your opinion mattered enough to inform you.

Oh please. I guarantee you that, statistically speaking, a cadet is at much higher risk of being sexually assaulted by a senior member than by a transgender cadet, regardless of the protective measures that we take; and that the rate of unplanned pregnancy arising from CAP activities is much higher between cisgender cadets. Does anyone seriously believe otherwise? If what we care about is risk management, then this concern can go to the back of the line.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Mrs Smith, there is a possibility your child will be sleeping in the same barracks as someone who is a biological male but identifies as a female. Are you ok with this, or would you like alternate sleeping arrangements for your child?

Substitute "black". Substitute "homosexual". Substitute "Jewish". Seriously: is it not extremely clear why this is not OK?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Bad analogies. With a Black, homosexual, or Jewish nothing can happen to the cadet that may complain. With a biologically different cadet, something physical or psychological can happen.

And if you are going to include "Black" or "White" race designators, note that you should capitalize them. Purporting to champion designations while ignoring basic tenets...

[NIN]

Lets put a pin in this topic for a little bit until the Hyperbole Rangers can cool their jets.

Folks are getting a little wrapped around the axle and this discussion is in the lane for the off ramp to "heated discussion." The mod team has seen this plenty, it seldom ends up in a good place.

Step back away from your keyboard and breathe for a minute.