Billford's Uniform Picks

[billford1]

My Uniform Picks

Dark Navy Blue Blazer silver or gold buttons with charcoal gray slacks.

Aviator short uniform with charcoal gray slacks worn with black web belt with silver uniform buckle and Blazer name tag with grade

Midnight blue BDUs with navy blue background grade

Polo with Blazer Name Tag option above pocket on left added with charcoal gray slacks and CAP reflective ball cap

Authorize flight cap with Blue Utility Uniform

Authorize blue BDU trousers with Polo for SAR and field events.

[Spike]

How about BDU's for everyone since the Air Force does not own them, and is very close to completing the move away from them.

When you have punk gang-banger kids wearing BDU pants, why can't all CAP members wear them?

Enough with weight limits, it only hurts the organization.  Last I looked there were some very heavy Airman deploying to Iraqistan.

[billford1]

I'll cheer you on if you can sell the BOG the woodland cammo BDUs FOR ALL cause I've still got mine.

[Short Field]

Enough with weight limits, it only hurts the organization.  Last I looked there were some very heavy Airman deploying to Iraqistan.

I seriously can't believe they are even close to the same level of obesity as some of our members... 

[TACP]

Enough with weight limits, it only hurts the organization.  Last I looked there were some very heavy Airman deploying to Iraqistan.

I seriously can't believe they are even close to the same level of obesity as some of our members...

Yeah, they don't compare. And last time I checked, those deploying members had to pass a PT test, and get severe punishments when they don't make the cut. Had two unit members this year get kicked out of the AF for repeat failures.

[Spike]

Enough with weight limits, it only hurts the organization.  Last I looked there were some very heavy Airman deploying to Iraqistan.

I seriously can't believe they are even close to the same level of obesity as some of our members...

You would be surprised.  One Airman deployed last year and lost over 100 pounds while deployed to get under AF weight limits.  The story was featured on the AF.MIL website.

Some CAP members are on the line in regard to AF mandated weight limits for CAP.  There are service members who weigh more and wear the uniform.

What would you consider obese also?  200 pound 5'6'' person?  Obesity is a debate ongoing in the medical community.   

[Smithsonia]

At the Air Force base near me they sell Air Force Blues in size 50 short and 44 trousers. I am thinking that somebody must need them and that person may not fit Air Force Weight Guidelines.

[Al Sayre]

No, that's just the way AAFES stocks things.  Just ask any AD personnel.  They always have plenty of what nobody needs or wants...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Since this thread is likely to be closed anyway, I want to offer a few thoughts.

On the NB agenda on the NHQ site, the CC of MIWG, Colonel Saile, offers a few thought-provoking ideas.  These are not just about the CSU, but about how, according to the Air Force's own standards of "low-light"/"at a distance," the AF uniform with CAP modifications is not distinctive enough.  I won't quote them all here, but they're there for anyone to read on NHQ's website.

I doubt that the CSU is going to be resurrected in any form, given the way it was introduced.

One thing I strongly disagree with is that, if not wearing military-type uniform, we need to be "business-like."  OK, we're a non-profit corporation, bla bla bla, but more than that we are an aviation organisation.

To that end I think that the grey/white, polos, and blazer should be phased out eventually.

The Colonel offers some interesting opinions on a CAP-distinctive uniform, one for all the members, which is what the CSU was supposed to be.

In the interests of "consolidation," and "distinctiveness," which NEC talked about, I have a few suggestions for the current uniforms:

Retain the brushed-silver nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" for wear on the AF-style service coat.  It looks good, and is "distinctive."

Replace the Hap Arnold buttons with ones bearing the CAP crest.

Delete the sleeve braid (please, no "we're officers" flames).

Delete the grey and blue "Civil Air Patrol/United States Air Force Auxiliary" nameplates and keep the current blue one with "Civil Air Patrol."

For the grey/white, standardise on these uniform trousers:

http://www.imagefirstuniforms.com/product.html?cpdID=5772

Introduce a grey MA-1 as an authorised outergarment for the grey/whites.

http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-ai-ka-ma1jacket-ti.asp

I still haven't figured out headgear for that uniform.

In the future, rather than "going corporate," why not use the airlines as a model?

Blue trousers and blue airline pilot dress jacket (modified for epaulettes with metal grade and "CAP" on each lapel)
http://www.airlineuniforms.net/p_jacket.htm

Blue Van Heusen airline shirt, distinctly darker than the AF:
http://www.airlineuniforms.net/p_shirt1.htm

Dark blue sweater:
http://www.airlineuniforms.net/flight_jsw.htm#sweaters

Just a thought.

[Spike]

^ Some suggestions actually make us look the same as current AF-Style, one makes us look more "AF" (blue nameplate).

Don't forget CAP was awarded with the AF-Style. Specifically the sleeve braid, "US" cutout, silver nameplate etc. were hard earned and took great effort of members that worked very hard to build the relationship between CAP and USAF stronger.   

[SarDragon]

Delete the grey and blue "Civil Air Patrol/United States Air ForceAuxiliary" nameplates and keep the current blue one with "Civil AirPatrol."

Disagree on this one. The grey and blue distinguish cadets from SMs, and are modern versions of insignia that go way back in our history.

The "Civil Air Patrol/United States Air ForceAuxiliary"part is also part of our heritage going back equally far. It's the formal version of our CAP tapes on the utility uniforms.

[David Lewis]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no maximum "weight" to join or stay in the military. "Weight" is not the standard. Body-Fat percentage is.

The Air Force changed their weight standards, both for those serving, and for applicants when they adopted their new physical fitness program on January 1, 2004.
After one joins, there are no longer any specific weight or body fat requirements, as these factors are taken into consideration as one of the componants on the periodic fitness assessment.

However, for new accessions, there are still minimum and maximum weight requirements to join. One of the primary differences is that the weight chart is now exactly the same for males and females. The Air Force now uses a system called "Body Mass Index," or BMI. Those with a BMI of greater than 27.5, regardless of age or sex, must undergo a body-fat measurement to check if they are within Air Force Body Fat standards to join, and those with a BMI of less than 19.0 will require a medical waiver to join.

The formula to compute BMI is weight (in pounds) divided by the square of height (in inches), multiplied by 704.5 (Don't worry about that though, the below chart shows the maximum and minimum weights using the formula).

When measuring height, round up for measurements of 1/2 inch or greater, and round down for measurements of less than 1/2 inch. When weighing, if the weight fraction is less than 1/2 pound, round down to the nearest pound. If the weight fraction is 1/2 pound or greater, round up to the nearest pound.


Applicants to join the Air Force who exceed weight requirements shown in the below chart are measured for body-fat. Body fat standards are no more than 20 percent for males under age 30, 24 percent for males age 30 or over, 28 percent for females under age 30, and 32 percent for females age 30 or over. Procedures to measure body fat can be found in DoD Instruction 1308.3, DoD Physical Fitness and Body Fat Programs Procedures.

The new weight standards took effect on October 1, 2004. This includes those who enlist in the DEP after October 1, 2004, and those who were already in the DEP, but ship out to basic training after 1 October 2004. For the weight standards for initial entry prior to 1 October 2004, see the following charts:


Male Weight Chart (For enlistments prior to October 1, 2004)
Female Weight Chart (For enlistments prior to October 1, 2004)

Air Force Weight Chart
Height Maximum Weight Minimum Weight
58 131 91
59 136 94
60 141 97
61 145 100
62 150 104
63 155 107
64 160 110
65 165 114
66 170 117
67 175 121
68 180 125
69 186 128
70 191 132
71 197 136
72 202 140
73 208 144
74 214 148
75 220 152
76 225 156
77 231 160
78 237 164
79 244 168
80 250 173

Body-Fat Procedures

The Department of Defense formula to compute body-fat percentage is somewhat complicated. For males, the formula is % body fat = 86.010 x log10(abdomen - neck) - 70.041 x log10(height) + 36.76, and for females, the formula is % body fat = 163.205 x log10(waist + hip - neck) - 97.684 x log10(height) - 78.387.

However, you don't have to worry about that, as DOD has prepared charts, based on the above formula (see below), that one can use to look up their body-fat percentage, after taking the proper measurements.

Measurements (Male)

Abdomen. Measure abdominal circumference against the skin at the navel (belly button), level and parallel to the floor. Arms are at the sides. Record the measurement at the end of member's normal, relaxed exhalation. Round abdominal measurement down to the nearest ½ inch.

Neck. Measure the neck circumference at a point just below the larynx (Adam's Apple) and perpendicular to the long axis of the neck. Do not place the tape measure over the Adam's Apple. Service member should look straight ahead during measurement, with shoulders down (not hunched). The tape will be as close to horizontal as anatomically feasible (the tape line in the front of the neck should be at the same height as the tape line in the back of the neck). Care should be taken so as not to involve the shoulder/neck muscles (trapezius) in the measurement. Round neck measurement up to the nearest ½ inch.

Subract the neck measurement from the abdomen measurement, then look up the results on the following charts:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blbodyfatmale3.htm

Measurements (Female)

Neck. Measure neck circumference at a point just below the larynx (Adam's Apple) and perpendicular to the long axis of the neck. The Service member should look straight ahead during measurement, with shoulders down (not hunched). Round the neck measurement up to nearest ½ inch.

Waist. Measure the natural waist circumference, against the skin, at the point of minimal abdominal circumference, usually located about halfway between the navel and the lower end of the sternum (breast bone). When you cannot easily see this site, take several measurements at probable sites and use the smallest value. Be sure that the tape is level and parallel to the floor. The Service member's arms must be at the sides. Take measurements at the end of member's normal relaxed exhalation. Round the natural waist measurement down to the nearest ½ inch.

Hip. Measure the hip circumference while facing the Service member's right side by placing the tape around the hips so that it passes over the greatest protrusion of the gluteal muscles (buttocks) as viewed from the side. Make sure the tape is level and parallel to the floor. Apply sufficient tension on the tape to minimize the effect of clothing. Round the hip measurement down to the nearest ½ inch.

Add the waist and hip measurements together, then subract the neck measurements. Look up the results on the charts.

[Spike]

^ That just proves the Air Force openly discriminates against overweight CAP Members.

Perhaps a change is needed to AF-Style uniform wear.  If units don't want to do the computations, perhaps at a members next physical it can be completed.  (For those that say "members shouldn't have to pay to go see the doctor", I reply most insurance companies pay for a complete physical yearly, there are express medical clinics in pharmacies and department stores that cost next to nothing.  PLUS, it does cost cash to be a member of CAP).

OR we can go on the basis of integrity!  I know of no Squadron that requires weigh-ins, we just accept a members say so on weight. 

[David Lewis]

The Air Force trains unit personnel to do the body fat index measuring.  These are the same unit personnel (might be someone from the orderly room) who conduct the annual PT tests.  AF members don't need to go see a physician unless the person doing the measuring determines that the AF member has exceeded their body fat index for their age group.  If this determination is made, the unit orderly room schedules that member a visit with a doctor (in the case of members on flying status, it would be a flight surgeon), who will either confirm or deny that the member has exceeded the body fat index.  If the member has NOT exceeded the body fat index, no action is taken.  If they have exceeded it, the member then has to go see the dietician, and then must make monthly weigh-ins and be measured to make sure they are progressing in the right direction.

[TACP]

Just an FYI too, the Air Force is currently doing a MAJOR overhaul of the physical fitness program. New standards to start with, but they have also taken the testing out of the unit. Each base will now have their own center where 'Health and Wellness' civilians administer test and track all members results. It's really not a joke anymore, they are kicking people out for not making the right scores.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Delete the grey and blue "Civil Air Patrol/United States Air ForceAuxiliary" nameplates and keep the current blue one with "Civil AirPatrol."

Disagree on this one. The grey and blue distinguish cadets from SMs, and are modern versions of insignia that go way back in our history.

Not sure how long you've been in, but back in the early '90s when I joined, both cadets and SM's wore the blue nameplate.  I still have my old blue one affixed to my old four-pocket service dress.  There are plenty of other, more visible, things that distinguish SM's from cadets.

The distinction didn't come around until around '95, when the grey epaulettes and U.S. cutouts came in.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^ Some suggestions actually make us look the same as current AF-Style, one makes us look more "AF" (blue nameplate).

Don't forget CAP was awarded with the AF-Style. Specifically the sleeve braid, "US" cutout, silver nameplate etc. were hard earned and took great effort of members that worked very hard to build the relationship between CAP and USAF stronger.

I hadn't forgot about the cutouts/silver nameplate; I was in when those came down.  But I don't know when we got the sleeve braid.

If a uniform is anything but grey, especially any shade of blue, does that make us "look more AF?"  As I've said before, there are a lot of people who, in the CSU aftermath, seem gun-shy about anything blue.

The USAF does not have a "blue monopoly;" even after it became an independent service Army pinks and greens with USAF insignia stuck around until around the beginning of the Korean War.  Other air forces used blue long before the USAF did.

My point is that a distinctive uniform can be blue without using any Air Force uniform items but it does not have to be grey.

[SarDragon]

Not sure how long you've been in, but back in the early '90s when I joined, both cadets and SM's wore the blue nameplate.  I still have my old blue one affixed to my old four-pocket service dress.  There are plenty of other, more visible, things that distinguish SM's from cadets.

The distinction didn't come around until around '95, when the grey epaulettes and U.S. cutouts came in.

Agreed on the blue nameplate. I still have mine from my participation in the late '80s. But prior to the blue nameplates, we all wore a black nameplate underneath differentiating insignia. That's what I was referring to. Admittedly not an exact evolution.

BTW, I joined as a cadet in 1964.

[Hawk200]

But I don't know when we got the sleeve braid.

Standard officer sleeve braid. It was part of the service coat when that service dress was approved for CAP.

Initially, that service coat design used braids (in multiples) to denote rank. It didn't last with the overwhelming backlash from Air Force members who felt it looked "too Navy". There were even epaulet sleeves for the shirts with the appropriate number of "stripes" that were treated even more derisively than the rank braid on the service coat.

The sleeve rank was done away with, epaulets were added for the traditional hard rank, and the officer braid was added to the lower sleeves like the old style coat had.

All of the changes were made prior to the service dress being approved for CAP use. By the time we got it, the Air Force had already settled on the epaulets, and the officer sleeve braid.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Standard officer sleeve braid. It was part of the service coat when that service dress was approved for CAP.

I know; I was a member then.  But we had the sleeve braid on the old four-pocket tunic too, so I was wondering when we got that.  How many years ago were we allowed that?

Initially, that service coat design used braids (in multiples) to denote rank. It didn't last with the overwhelming backlash from Air Force members who felt it looked "too Navy". There were even epaulet sleeves for the shirts with the appropriate number of "stripes" that were treated even more derisively than the rank braid on the service coat.

And too "airline pilot," and too "RAF," and too "Canadian (except they wear gold rings)."  I remember the Tony McPeak uniform, but I only ever saw one person wear it, an AD Ch/Capt.  I never saw rank slides with it (except one B/W picture).

My unit CC at that time ('93) said there was speculation that, instead of the silver sleeve braid, CAP would get light blue, but obviously nothing came of it.  It would have been like the Royal Observer Corps of the RAF; they wore RAF uniform with dark-blue sleeve rings.

Personally, I preferred the old four-pocket.