Corporate Gray Uniform

[disamuel]

I'm looking for a little help, having already searched 39-1 and this forum...

I have been getting by with the golf shirt uniform, and BDU's when appropriate. I am attending an SLS class next month, and I received an email from the instructor stating that the UOD is "AF Style Blues, Corp Blues or Corp Grays".

I need to assemble a corporate gray uniform, so as I understand it I need a pair of medium gray pants, and an aviator shirt (short sleeve so no tie). I need to order a gray nameplate also, which hopefully will arrive on time. I have a pair of epaulets, and I think I will hold off on the ribbons for now.

My questions are:

1. Which outerwear jacket is authorized with the gray/white corporate. Do I need epaulets with it?
2. What is the difference between the gray/white corporate, and the blue/white corporate?

I know the CSU is being phased out (having read most of the 45 page thread)  but does that include the blue/white shirt/pants combo?

I meet grooming standards, and I will probably be within weight specs by the class.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[SilverEagle2]

1. Any civilian outer garment is authorized with the grays as it does not have a service jacket. You can get the blazer if you wish to be more formal, but it has it's own set of requirements.

2. Blue corporate is everything that the CSU is minus the coat. Don't bother at this point.

Per your last comment, I would go with the blues and use them as and incentive to stay fit! 

[arajca]

1. Any civilian outerwear is authorized. No epaulets of insignia are worn on it.

2. Grey corporate - grey trousers, grey three line name plate, grey epaulet slides
    Blue corporate - AF blue trousers, blue two line name plate, blue AF epaulet slides

Forget the corporate blue, it's going away with the rest of the CSU.

[RogueLeader]

Yes, the White and blue combo is headed away.

If you meet the standards to wear the BDU's, you are legal to wear AF Blue uniforms, although you are under no obligation to do so.

The min. requirements for Aviator uniform is grey, 3 line nametape, and epaullets if 2d LT and above, or CAP cutouts if SMWOG (senior Member without Grade.)

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I'm with SilverEagle2 — if you're going to be within weight standards by the course, get that Air Force uniform and use it as a carrot on a stick. The Air Force uniform is the most (only?) stable uniform we have, so don't worry about mass changes on a moment's notice.

[Eclipse]

There is also the option of civilian business attire - any SLS/CLC director worth his salt should be flexible enough to allow for that accommodation.

[Gunner C]

I'd say that any member worth his salt would be in uniform. "A slothful servant must be commanded in all things."

[disamuel]

Ok, thank you all for your help and advice. I am placing an order with Vanguard today, and I think for now I am going to go with the gray/white combo, since I really want to lose more weight before I get a set of blues.

I have one more question regarding ribbons. In order to earn the Davis Award, the national website states that you must achieve at least a Technican Level in a specialty (which I have). But it also states that you need SLS and ECI13 which I don't have yet. Is the leadership ribbon earned after completion of the specialty rating? Can you earn the ribbon before you complete level 2?

The page that has me stumped is here:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_university/level_ii_technical_training.cfm

Thanks in advance-

[SilverEagle2]

Yes, the Davis award does not have a ribbon.

If you have a tech rating in a specialty, you have earned the ribbon.

There has been some debate as to making the Leadership Ribbon the BOD Award Ribbon, but that is a different subject.

Keep in mind, once you loose the weight, the name plate, epaulets, ribbons, and badges all transfer to the blues.

All you need to transition if you have the right shoes are, blue shirt, blue pants, blue belt, and a flight cap (with device).

Good luck.

[Thrashed]

While the instructor may say a UOD, I'd say any CAP uniform is ok.  They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.  In my SLS, we had a mixture of everything from civilian cloths to AF blues.  Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.  That's good.  SLS is for learning, and many people learned that weekend. I wish CAP could be more "uniform" when we wear uniforms, but that will never happen.

[Eclipse]

They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.

A Commander or activity PIC can prescribe any uniform they want for seniors, at the risk of reducing attendance, and they can certainly
prohibit any uniform they see fit.

[lordmonar]

While the instructor may say a UOD, I'd say any CAP uniform is ok.  They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! 

Any commander or event director can set the appropriate uniform for that event!  They can't say you will wear USAF style uniforms over CSUs or Aviator Combos.....but they can certainly say no polos, field uniforms or flight suits.

Don't start giving people bad advice to buck the authority of our course directors.  There was a BOZO at the last PCR RSC who would no follow the UOD directions of the course director.

In my SLS, we had a mixture of everything from civilian cloths to AF blues.  Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.  That's good.  SLS is for learning, and many people learned that weekend. I wish CAP could be more "uniform" when we wear uniforms, but that will never happen.

Then why did you give the "I'd say and CAP uniform is okay"?

[arajca]

Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.  That's good.  SLS is for learning, and many people learned that weekend.

It's not good. If folks are not wearing the uniform properly to a SLS, I presume they've been in for a little while. They should have been instructed how to wear the uniform at their unit. Sorry to say, what they learned at SLS regarding uniform wear will most likely slip awya within two months, if the unit doesn't reinforce it. BTDT.

Typically, when I hold a course, I will specify the UOD AND that it be worn in accordance with CAPM 39-1 and subsequent ICLs.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Having run my share of SLSs and CLCs, I would add the the UOD should include an option for those who are limited in their uniform choices. Once I saw a posting for a training class requiring AF Blues or the CSU blue/whites. This precluded members who chose not to follow AF grooming standards. To use the common phrase from CAP Talk, UOD should allow members who happen to be fat and or fuzzy to be in uniform.

[Camas]

While the instructor may say a UOD, I'd say any CAP uniform is ok.  They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.  In my SLS, we had a mixture of everything from civilian cloths to AF blues.  Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.

Proper uniform wear is something new members should learn as part of their Level I training. As my wing DPD I ask my course directors to insist on proper uniform wear along with shined footwear and proper haircuts for male students. Anything less than acceptable standards will not be condoned. It seems to help since the students now understand that the SLS and CLC courses are premier courses in professional development. I also ask that students stay with the AF service or aviator uniform along with CSU's (until Jan 2011). I also recognize that many new members may only have a golfshirt uniform in which case they are still most welcome to attend.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Proper uniform wear is something new members should learn as part of their Level I training.

Which includes the grey/white uniform.   All too often I see it worn very slovenly; I suppose many think that because it's not an AF uniform and there aren't really any restrictions on who can wear it that having it squared away isn't a real big concern.

[Hawk200]

Which includes the grey/white uniform.   All too often I see it worn very slovenly; I suppose many think that because it's not an AF uniform and there aren't really any restrictions on who can wear it that having it squared away isn't a real big concern.

I've seen people that had both, and wore them in the same manner. I don't think it's a case of the type of uniform, I think it's mostly the person in it.

[Fubar]

At the SLS course I attended, 100% of the students (roughly 40 people) wore the polo. The instructor asked for a show of hands of who owned a uniform other than the polo and only a few hands went up. Only a few more hands went up when the instructor asked who planned on purchasing another uniform (thanks to RiverAux, I'm now aware staying polo-only is against regs - this was not mentioned at the class).

Before any "flying club" accusations start getting thrown about, there were only a couple of pilots in attendance and they all indicated they had a non-polo uniform.

[Pylon]

At the SLS course I attended, 100% of the students (roughly 40 people) wore the polo. The instructor asked for a show of hands of who owned a uniform other than the polo and only a few hands went up. Only a few more hands went up when the instructor asked who planned on purchasing another uniform (thanks to RiverAux, I'm now aware staying polo-only is against regs - this was not mentioned at the class).

Before any "flying club" accusations start getting thrown about, there were only a couple of pilots in attendance and they all indicated they had a non-polo uniform.

Wow, that just surprises me that 40 senior members would all show up with the polo, if it wasn't somehow suggested as the preferred uniform.   Heck, after 13 years in CAP, I don't even own a polo.

[Short Field]

I am placing an order with Vanguard today, and I think for now I am going to go with the gray/white combo, since I really want to lose more weight before I get a set of blues.

Good move!  We have far too many members who managed to meet the weight limits when they bought blues - and have never come close to that weight again...   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Wow, that just surprises me that 40 senior members would all show up with the polo, if it wasn't somehow suggested as the preferred uniform.   Heck, after 13 years in CAP, I don't even own a polo.

Have you ever been in a senior squadron, Pylon?  I'm not trying to be a smart Alec; I'm just asking.

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Which includes the grey/white uniform.   All too often I see it worn very slovenly; I suppose many think that because it's not an AF uniform and there aren't really any restrictions on who can wear it that having it squared away isn't a real big concern.

I've seen people that had both, and wore them in the same manner. I don't think it's a case of the type of uniform, I think it's mostly the person in it.

Point taken; in fact, in my first squadron, the then-commander barred one member from wearing the blue uniform because it was always in such shabby condition.  I think he wore the smurf suit from then on.

[Eclipse]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

[Fubar]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

What if the group or wing commanders themselves aren't properly in uniform?

[CadetProgramGuy]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

What if the group or wing commanders themselves aren't properly in uniform?

Then I view it as a failure of Command.

While I do own a set of the Polo shirts, i am not a fan of them being a meeting uniform or a mission flying shirt.

I encourage the polo for routine, run of the mill travel to and from an activity or event, but not as THE uniform for the activity or event.

[Thrashed]

While the instructor may say a UOD, I'd say any CAP uniform is ok.  They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! 

In my SLS, we had a mixture of everything from civilian cloths to AF blues.  Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.  That's good.  SLS is for learning, and many people learned that weekend. I wish CAP could be more "uniform" when we wear uniforms, but that will never happen.

Then why did you give the "I'd say and CAP uniform is okay"?

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

[DG]

Why do we need uniforms in the first place?

(Serious question, seeking serious answers.)

And if the uniform serves an important purpose, can't we do it without bling and bravado?

My main deal in CAP is in Air Ops.  Many pilots are interested in uniforms only where they are utilitarian.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why do we need uniforms in the first place?

Uniforms are part of Civil Air Patrol. 
They have been from the beginning. 
We are a volunteer organisation ran along paramilitary lines. 
We are the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

(Serious question, seeking serious answers.)

Trying to treat it as such, trying to provide them.

I think your questions show the continuing disconnect between the military-Air Force heritage and corporate-ES sides of CAP.

And if the uniform serves an important purpose, can't we do it without bling and bravado?

It depends on how you define "bling and bravado."

My main deal in CAP is in Air Ops.  Many pilots are interested in uniforms only where they are utilitarian.

No offence intended, and try not to take it this way, but there are a few salient points needing to be made:

Not everyone in CAP is a pilot.
(I am an observer, FWIW)

CAP is not solely a pilot's organisation.

Air Ops is not the only thing that CAP does.

Some CAP members spend their entire CAP career without ever setting foot in an airplane, yet serve with distinction (our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).

Also, my first Squadron CC, later Wing CC, had (last time I saw him) a Senior Pilot rating, several "finds," instructor pilot, multi-engine rated, etc., etc., etc., and he always wore the uniform (blues, BDU's, zoom bag, mess dress) with pride.

[Eclipse]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own...

Correct, but "they" can limit your participation in optional activities if you can't present a proper appearance.

...and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason.

Correct again, however as we point out regularly, all senior members are required to own a basic service uniform, either the blues or the whites, which means that mandating wear is not only allowed by regulation, its completely reasonable.

[lordmonar]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

Ah....but you do have to own a basic CAP uniform...which is either a short sleeve USAF uniform, a short sleeve CSU or an aviator shirt with gray pants.  It's in the 39-1.

As for requiring other uniforms......we on occassion do require other uniforms....such as at encampment of for ES operations and flight operations.

[Major Carrales]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

Ah....but you do have to own a basic CAP uniform...which is either a short sleeve USAF uniform, a short sleeve CSU or an aviator shirt with gray pants.  It's in the 39-1.

As for requiring other uniforms......we on occassion do require other uniforms....such as at encampment of for ES operations and flight operations.

The important part is that everyone, upon joining, acquire the minimum basic service uniform first.  Most people tend to get BDUs or Flightsuits first, likely because they are more available in most areas via surplus stores and the like (in fact, my first service uniform was from a Thrift Shop...over the years I built up and replaced out that stuff.)

Thus, it is not unreasonable to ask for minimum basic service dress at classroom type activities.  Since the uniform manual dictates that is the default uniform, that case is made.

The second situation when other uniforms would be needed involve special activities or others where field dress is more appropriate.  You'll look pretty nasty if you wear service dress to Ground Team school after wallowing in the field for a few days (just ask the guys in Brownsville who are there TODAY!!!)  The only justification for that type of dress would be a graduation ceremony...however, the norm is to be graduated in BDUs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Then I view it as a failure of Command.

Or, in this specific case, the factor that many of the squadron members also held Wing positions.

[Strick]

(our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).
Incorrect
The General is an Observer

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).
Incorrect
The General is an Observer

Where do you get that?  In all the photos I have seen of General Courter, she is not wearing wings of any kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Courter

NOTE: I stand corrected, and Wikipedia should be too.

http://www.capsfuture.com/capexperience.htm

[RiverAux]

Besides, you are not required to wear wings....I've been an observer for 12-13 years and don't have them on my BDUs, though will usually wear the pin on blues...

[DG]

Not everyone in CAP is a pilot.
(I am an observer, FWIW)

CAP is not solely a pilot's organisation.

Some CAP members spend their entire CAP career without ever setting foot in an airplane, yet serve with distinction (our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).

And your point is what?

That pilots and their concerns do not carry much weight?



What would you do with the airplanes, without the pilot?

What would the organization be, without the pilot?

At the very least, you would have to change the name.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^

My point is that pilots do not run Civil Air Patrol, and their desires carry no more and no less weight than the member who never sets foot in an airplane.

And what would pilots do without the support personnel on the ground, and without the schmuck in the right seat (that's an observer) who does everything except fly the plane?

If your reasoning is that just because you have a pilot's rating and wear pilot's wings, that your views have more weight, you are mistaken and a reality/ego check is in order, I think.

This is not a flying club, and Civil Air Patrol does not exist solely for Air Ops, as any experienced Ground Team member will be glad to tell you.

[Hawk200]

My point is that pilots do not run Civil Air Patrol, and their desires carry no more and no less weight than the member who never sets foot in an airplane.

Actually, I think your original point was that all of the attendees at an SLS wore polos, but not all were pilots. I believe that the implied point was that not everyone who wears a polo is a pilot. Am I right?

[Pylon]

Wow, that just surprises me that 40 senior members would all show up with the polo, if it wasn't somehow suggested as the preferred uniform.   Heck, after 13 years in CAP, I don't even own a polo.

Have you ever been in a senior squadron, Pylon?  I'm not trying to be a smart Alec; I'm just asking.

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

I have not been a member of a senior squadron, though I had a Group job before.  I guess I'm more surprised that 40 senior members would show up to an activity and all happen to be wearing the same uniform (regardless of whether it was the polo, or any other uniform), rather than being surprised specifically that a bunch of senior members wore the polo shirt.

In any case, that's not my experience locally.  At our meetings, 100% of the senior members are wearing either the AF-style uniform or the corporate equivalent appropriate for the UOD of the meeting.  But of course, to your original point, we're a composite squadron and we have cadets there.  When we've had senior-only meetings however, uniform wear still tend to be pretty solid and consistent.   I imagine that if you join a unit where everybody wears the UOD, wearing something else (even if allowed) makes you stick out.   The above posted story of wearing blues and sticking out at a meeting where nobody took uniforms seriously would apply conversely if you were the lone member in civvies or a polo at a meeting where everybody was wearing the AF-style or corp equivalent UOD.  Local practice obviously dominates.

[DG]

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

First of all, I don't believe for a second they believed what you say in the case of "Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying."

No doubt they were pulling your leg.  They picked up real fast that you were out of place.

And second of all, who was the one who was out of step?  Perhaps excusable, since you say it was your first meeting.

But your subsequent whining is not.

[Major Carrales]

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

First of all, I don't believe for a second they believed what you say in the case of "Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying."

No doubt they were pulling your leg.  They picked up real fast that you were out of place.

And second of all, who was the one who was out of step?  Perhaps excusable, since you say it was your first meeting.

But your subsequent whining is not.

I'm not a pilot, but I have served in CAP since 1998, risen to the grade of Major and the rank of Squadron Commander without a pilot's rating.

What I am going to write I hope will only have to be written once en re this nonsense about "pilot worth." What I have read above is moot and specious on both party's part.  It is obvious to me that all CAP officers who participate have an inherent worth to the program.  If you are a pilot then your main modus operandi is to fly, if you choose to or are able to.  Your job cannot be performed without the flight crew and, unless you can address an ELT from the pilot's seat you need ground team and COMM personnel to accomplish the mission.  Plus, if your Squadron Commander is not "on the ball" you could loose your aircraft or your quals will never get approved.  If Finances are not running correctly you are in a world of hurt to fly.

COMM and Ground Team folks are not off the hook either, they need Air Support...after all there is that little caveat about not trespassing into farmer's fields and the like.  Or that impassable terrain that an aircraft can scale in seconds while your average ground team would require hours to mitigate.  Try operating a CAP mission like hurricane relief without and Airborne repeater.

My point, illustrated above, is that we operate as a well oiled machine to accomplish the mission.  No part is greater than any other and they work like a puzzle to complete the necessary picture.

I will add this, however, "flying clubs" and "elite ground teams" that never deploy are not part of the picture.  If all you do is show up to "fly for cheap" and the idea of having to listen to Air Branch is an affront to you or really want to dress "like Rambo" and hate the idea of having to train in GES and ICS because you consider that "BS," then you are not a team player and then we have a problem.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Maj. C!

Unfortunately there is a subculture, perpetuated in some squadrons that's rubbed off from Ma Blue - if you don't sport the 'universal management badge' (pilot's wings) you only exist to support them. Observer? Scanner? You're just self-loading cargo put there to keep Big Bad Pilot from getting lost! The attitude sometimes extends to squadrons with ground teams - if you ain't got a GT badge, you ain't [fill in the rest]!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all, I don't believe for a second they believed what you say in the case of "Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying."

No doubt they were pulling your leg.  They picked up real fast that you were out of place.

And second of all, who was the one who was out of step?  Perhaps excusable, since you say it was your first meeting.

But your subsequent whining is not.

Whether they, or you, believe it or not does not affect the truth factor of the statement.

And there is no need to label an opinion differing with your own as "whining," nor are you one to stand in judgement of my "excuseability" or lack thereof.

And, actually, I did learn that I was "out of step"...as AlphaSigOU said about the pilot subculture, which is why I subsequently left the unit and resolved to not join another senior squadron if I could help it.

If I were a pilot, I really doubt if the members of this former unit would have cared whether or not I wore a blue uniform or not; even if I had shown up in a track suit and CAP baseball cap, as long as I would have held a pilot's rating, I would have been "one of them."  I didn't, so I wasn't.

Major C. is also correct with what he says about the whole needing the coherent parts.

This will be my last statement to you on the subject.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Actually, I think your original point was that all of the attendees at an SLS wore polos, but not all were pilots. I believe that the implied point was that not everyone who wears a polo is a pilot. Am I right?

My point is that pilots are no more or less indispensable to CAP than non-pilots in terms of making the whole bit run.  Major C. said it better than I can.

A subheading would be that if you're going to be part of CAP, part of that is wearing an approved uniform, whatever form that may take.

[DG]

And, actually, I did learn that I was "out of step"...as AlphaSigOU said about the pilot subculture, which is why I subsequently left the unit and resolved to not join another senior squadron if I could help it.

Good for you.  At least it was a learning experience for you.

And I am sure the members of the unit are equally relieved that you left.  Particularly the pilots.

[Gunner C]

And I am sure the members of the unit are equally relieved that you left.  Particularly the pilots.

Yeah, the nerve of those non-pilots!  Who do they think they are?  [/sarcasm]

[Mustang]

Uniforms are part of Civil Air Patrol. 
They have been from the beginning.  

Uh, got proof of that?  I think you'll find that not to be the actual case.  I don't think uniforms came into the picture until mid-1942, if I'm not mistaken.

CAP is not solely a pilot's organisation.

Air Ops is not the only thing that CAP does.

Some CAP members spend their entire CAP career without ever setting foot in an airplane, yet serve with distinction (our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).

True enough, but like it or not, Air Ops is CAP's primary mission. Has been from the beginning. (Even before we had uniforms!) It is is CAP's raison d'être. The organization wasn't created to run a cadet program or educate the populace about aviation; those missions came later.  First and foremost, CAP is an aviation organization. Always will be. Kill off CP and AE, and we'd still be the Civil Air Patrol, just as when we began. But without airplanes and pilots, that wouldn't be the case.

Honestly, I don't understand why people knowingly join an aviation organization, only to make every effort to knock its aviation-oriented culture at every opportunity. 

[BillB]

Mustang
Hate to bust ya bubble but uniforms were worn from the beginning. Not USAAC uniforms but the authorized Civil Defense uniform. What do you think the CAP emblem was for?  The USAAC did authorize CAP to wear the military uniform in 1942. Unofficially, CAP started wearing the military uniform in very early 1942.

[JoeTomasone]

Incidentally, the best way I have seen the UOD categorized is:

"Dress Uniform": Blues/Greys/CSU, Blazer

"Field/Utility Uniform": BDUs, BBDUs, Utility Uniform

"Flight Suit": Green or Blue

"Casual": Polo shirt

So, for example: "The UOD for this activity will be any authorized CAP Dress Uniform" or "...will be any authorized Field/Utility or Casual Uniform".

[Eclipse]

True enough, but like it or not, Air Ops is CAP's primary mission.

No, its not.  Its currently a portion of 1/3rd of our "mission".

[RogueLeader]

True enough, but like it or not, Air Ops is CAP's primary mission.

No, its not.  Its currently a portion of 1/3rd of our "mission".

opps didn't fully read coment.  sorry.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Honestly, I don't understand why people knowingly join an aviation organization, only to make every effort to knock its aviation-oriented culture at every opportunity.

First of all, I joined CAP in 1993 knowing full well what it was.  I also joined a composite squadron whose commander was a rated Senior Pilot (later Command Pilot) who then became Wingco.

One later-joined member was a graduate of Embry-Riddle...and a rated pilot.

I am a rated Observer, and whether you like that or not, that is an aircrew position.

I joined CAP because of its aviation-orientated culture, not despite it.

I am a pilot's son.

What I did have a problem with was the flying club senior squadron where, mixed in with a bit of operational flying, the pilots thought the squadron, airplane, and CAP as a whole were there just for them to build up their hours on the Air Force's nickel and to sign up their significant others so they could fly in CAP aircraft...but never take part in any other CAP activities, including coming to meetings, professional development, etc.

I don't even call that "Air Ops" or "aviation culture."  I call that a bunch of dilettantes.

[Thrashed]

I wouldn't call flying CAP planes for "building hours/flying club" cheap.  The CAP Maules and C182's cost more than the Cherokees and C172's at the FBO's.  But the CAP prices are about 1/2 the price of a FBO equivelant aircraft.  About 7 of my 13,000 hours are in CAP planes. 

[Short Field]

Only 7 hours on CAP's dime out of 13,000 hours?  I have seen MPs who have logged more than that in one day!

[ZigZag911]

Mustang: CAP's primary missions are Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services. While air operations are pivotal to all three missions, flying in and of itself is not the only thing --- often not even the main thing -- CAP does.

[PHall]

Honestly, I don't understand why people knowingly join an aviation organization, only to make every effort to knock its aviation-oriented culture at every opportunity.

Did you ever rejoin or are you still a "former" member?

[Mustang]

I'm paid up now.

[flyguy06]

Well said, Maj. C!

Unfortunately there is a subculture, perpetuated in some squadrons that's rubbed off from Ma Blue - if you don't sport the 'universal management badge' (pilot's wings) you only exist to support them. Observer? Scanner? You're just self-loading cargo put there to keep Big Bad Pilot from getting lost! The attitude sometimes extends to squadrons with ground teams - if you ain't got a GT badge, you ain't [fill in the rest]!

I dont know if I agree with that or not. If you lok at the majority of Wing and region CC's how many are rated as opposed to not beig rated?

[flyguy06]

btw, how did a thread titled Corporate Grey Uniform turn into a discussion about the worth of CAP pilots?

[RiverAux]

Mustang
Hate to bust ya bubble but uniforms were worn from the beginning. Not USAAC uniforms but the authorized Civil Defense uniform. What do you think the CAP emblem was for?  The USAAC did authorize CAP to wear the military uniform in 1942. Unofficially, CAP started wearing the military uniform in very early 1942.

Well, pretty close to the beginning...it did take a few months to figure things out as you might expect (Its not like someone dropped off a shipment of uniforms on 12/2/41).  But, essentially you're right that as soon as CAP was really functional, we were wearing military uniforms....