Paid leave for CAP duty for federal workers

[heliodoc]

^^^

I can see a few problems........ CAP losing its coveted "non-profit" 501(c)3 status

                                              CAP now required to have STANDARDIZED training plans across US
                                             
                                              CAP having to face a new myriad of OSHA and REAL SAR standards

Congress isn't going to roll over on this one.  Neither is OMB and OPM.  States can do with what they want with vacation and  time for volunteers.

Do like any pother Fed worker ....dip into the vaca time ...ALOT of us have already done so.

IF CAP wants all the rights for paid leave as a Fed worker .......its REALLY high time they start lobbying Congress ....... Good Luck on that!!

[lordmonar]

^^^

I can see a few problems........ CAP losing its coveted "non-profit" 501(c)3 status

                                              CAP now required to have STANDARDIZED training plans across US
                                             
                                              CAP having to face a new myriad of OSHA and REAL SAR standards

Congress isn't going to roll over on this one.  Neither is OMB and OPM.  States can do with what they want with vacation and  time for volunteers.

Do like any pother Fed worker ....dip into the vaca time ...ALOT of us have already done so.

IF CAP wants all the rights for paid leave as a Fed worker .......its REALLY high time they start lobbying Congress ....... Good Luck on that!!

The funny part is that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is the one allowing it.  AD USAF personnel have had Permissiive TDY for CAP support for years and years.

OPM is the guys who write GS employee leave rules.....they are the ones who allows this.

[heliodoc]

^^

True..

But  again,  why should their a separate Fed leave category for "CAP leave"

I had to take vac time just like every one else in Fed govt against whatever leave account

I stand by... NO special privileges (paid) for CAP.  Time to realize the burden on the Government for more leave requirements.  Is not that what the previous Pres Administration was about??   VOLUNTEERISM

Stand by that CAP and accept what is already on the books

[AirDX]

Having retired from the FAA 18 months ago, I'll tell you straight up that paid leave for CAP activities will lead directly to fraud and abuse.  As soon as a few people figure out that paying ~$60 a year to CAP will net them another 2-3 weeks off work, we'll be overrun with members we never see.  Bad, bad idea.  I always arranged my work schedule around required training and duty when I was a volunteer fire/rescue guy.  It's not hard.

[AirDX]

1. Put the request in writing;
2. Either state in writing his job did not have to be during the absence (the look on the employee's face let you know he knew the outcome of writing that) or name the people who could do his job in his absence (similar look)
3. attach to the request a copy of a current membership card and a letter from the employee's volunteer superior that the employee was both requested and required for the assignment. The letter had to be on the non-profit's letterhead.

I can't speak to #2, but #1 and #3 apply to National Guards and Reservists... both when I was with the FAA and when I was working for an airline, they had to provide copies of orders covering the period they were requesting either military leave or leave of absence.  No verbal requests.

I'll support paid leave for CAP when we start getting ordered to the sandbox. 

[billford1]

When we get called out I'm hesitant about accepting a mission assignment during a work day. People I work with don't know what I do with CAP. I wouldn't ask to be paid by my employer for CAP Duty and have in the past always used vacation days.  My employer will pay for Military duty to supplement what the Service Person doesn't make in order to equal their normal pay. The same applies to Jury Duty.  I accept not being paid for volunteer work but would appreciate some acknowledgment from the state Govt that some volunteer activities should be given consideration where the volunteer service can involve situations where lives may be saved.

[RiverAux]

Having retired from the FAA 18 months ago, I'll tell you straight up that paid leave for CAP activities will lead directly to fraud and abuse.  As soon as a few people figure out that paying ~$60 a year to CAP will net them another 2-3 weeks off work, we'll be overrun with members we never see.  Bad, bad idea.  I always arranged my work schedule around required training and duty when I was a volunteer fire/rescue guy.  It's not hard.

Seeing as how my suggestion would require that both the Wing Commander and a civilian federal employee cooperate in defrauding another arm of the federal government by ginning up fake orders for CAP members or by giving orders to a CAP member for a real mission that they don't actually participate in, I don't see much opportunity for abuse. 

[MikeD]

I'm not sure who these unpaid federal workers are that you're referring to.

It isn't hard to figure out. While Rescue Ronnie is off having fun someone has to do his/her work. The boss tells 'left behind' to 'work smarter not harder' as he dumps Rescue Ronnie's work on 'left behind'. Of course no overtime is approved. In the case of a salaried worker, there is no overtime issue so 'left behind' will probably get stuck doing Rescue Ronnie's work on overtime for free.

A lot of the time the work can be put off for a few days.  The federal gov does NOT allow, let alone ask, employees to work uncompensated.  If the work did have to get done, comp time and credit hours are applicable, even to salaried workers.

[Gunner C]

In my job there's a great deal of guardsmen, reservists, and retirees.  Right now we have two on extended active duty and my partner is probably going on an AD tour for about three months.  Yes, it puts us in a crunch for a bit, but we reshuffle the deck chairs and drive on. 

It's important to note that these guys get their full government employee pay minus their military pay - they are getting a better deal than the folks around them.  Is it fair? Sure.  It's what their employer allows.

When (if) a CAP member gets their full government employee pay minus their military pay minus their CAP pay (zip)?  Sure, it's what their employer allows.

Yes, there will needs be controls put on it, but that's OK.  Will anyone get thrown in jail for fraud?  Almost certainly!  It will happen, just like folks with regular employers sometimes pad their time sheets.  Not often, but it does happen.

Would it cause CAP to lose their 501(c)(3) status?  Probably not.  If the government says that this is allowable on the one hand, the government would look sillier than usual to say that it's not allowable on the other.

On that "volunteerism" thing . . . how much did WW2 aircrews get paid per day?

[RiverAux]

On that "volunteerism" thing . . . how much did WW2 aircrews get paid per day?

They did get some sort of per diem, but I wouldn't call it "pay". 

[Gunner C]

I don't remember what it was.  Ed could probably set it straight.  But in 1942 dollars, it wasn't bad. Especially in the days of HUGE unemployment.

[RiverAux]

I'm thinking $8 or something like that which is worth about $80 today, which isn't all that much different than US gov't per diem rates now.

[RADIOMAN015]

In my job there's a great deal of guardsmen, reservists, and retirees.  Right now we have two on extended active duty and my partner is probably going on an AD tour for about three months.  Yes, it puts us in a crunch for a bit, but we reshuffle the deck chairs and drive on. 

It's important to note that these guys get their full government employee pay minus their military pay - they are getting a better deal than the folks around them.  Is it fair? Sure.  It's what their employer allows.

When (if) a CAP member gets their full government employee pay minus their military pay minus their CAP pay (zip)?  Sure, it's what their employer allows.

Yes, there will needs be controls put on it, but that's OK.  Will

Unfortunately there's some reservists and guardsman that really know how to play "the game" so to speak.  The federal law on this really meant when units were being "involuntarily" deployed, the employer couldn't take any negative actions agains the employee. while they were deployed.   However, what seem to have happend now is the Joe or Jane Reservist (who can't figure our what their real career is) plays the law against the employer by "volunteering" for various military duties which keeps them out of their employers' business, which still has to run without them, (and may have spent substantial time, money, & effort trarining them), etc.  I don't think that is fair to the employer  -- Again remember that employers in the private as well as the public/non profit sector hire people who will be on the job every day and perform their assigned duties .

As far as CAP senior members getting paid for their Emergency Services, well the various HHS Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATS) get paid a federal salary & per diem when they are deployed (might even get some money for training time).   You've alreay seen postings on this list that some wings have been unsuccessful in getting ANY volunteers for deployments to the neighboring state.  Perhaps this would change IF there was a monetary incentive for the "volunteer".
RM
   

[AirDX]

Seeing as how my suggestion would require that both the Wing Commander and a civilian federal employee cooperate in defrauding another arm of the federal government by ginning up fake orders for CAP members or by giving orders to a CAP member for a real mission that they don't actually participate in, I don't see much opportunity for abuse.

Any mission where there's enough time to do paperwork like that is not an emergency... thus shouldn't require paid time off work.

[Eclipse]

Having retired from the FAA 18 months ago, I'll tell you straight up that paid leave for CAP activities will lead directly to fraud and abuse.  As soon as a few people figure out that paying ~$60 a year to CAP will net them another 2-3 weeks off work, we'll be overrun with members we never see.

First, you don't structure any program on the assumptions that a few bozos will abuse the system.

As said above, falsifying the deployment or travel orders for a member to be able to take advantage of any of the various leave options the states have today, or feds might incorporate, would be fraud on a pretty significant scale, likely resulting in a new Wing CC, and some time at Club Fed.

Any really workable plan would probably require that the orders pass through CAP-USAF or the State Directors, in which case the odds of fraud drop significantly - no State Director is going to sign off on falsified deployment orders for some member and risk his own career and freedom.

Anything is possible, but if you're stupid enough to do that, you deserve anything you get.

Bad, bad idea.  I always arranged my work schedule around required training and duty when I was a volunteer fire/rescue guy.  It's not hard.

Do you have a crystal ball that tells you when & where the next hurricane/tornado/earthquake/flood will occur?  Does it has a granular adjustment to further tell you when CAP will be deployed?

Sure you can request vacation time for a SAREx, Eval, or similar training, but those are usually a weekend anyway.  The long-term, long deployment, missions happen when they happen, with little notice.  For Katrina we left with 24 hours notice, for KY we went on 3 hours spin up (yes 3 hours).  In both cases many who went were gone at least a week if not more.

Not exactly a lot of time to negotiate days off with your co-workers.

I would support paid leave for Federal Employees not only for CAP, but for any benevolent emergency-related activities.

Its all the same pool of money, Joe Taxpayer.  Whether we let federal workers go and help, higher contractors to do the work, or reimburse local agencies through FEMA and other funding sources, eventually we all pay the bill, and unlike the second two above, paid leave is "soft money" not requiring additional appropriations or expenditures over and above existing salary and benefits.

[sdcapmx]

Wow, you can sure tell who the bosses are by reading these posts.  Always thinking the employees are trying to get by with something.  And you same people wonder why we need labor unions!  If we all worked for good honest employers we wouldn't have the need for unions now would we?  We CAP members give up countless hours to the cause.  I don't even want to know how many hours I give to CAP each year.  I'm not complaining as I do it willingly.  If the employer wants to pay their employee for CAP training or actual SARs then good on them.  That is the kind of place I would be proud to work at.  I personally get very offended at the employer that chronically complains about Guard or Reserve leave!  Having spent 26 years in the service I have worked for some of those clowns that thought we were always trying to pull something over on them.  Sure it happens but 99% of us were proud to serve and did it with honor.

That being said I hope none of you Nay Sayers are ever laying out in the woods in your wrecked aircraft hoping a CAP search crew is looking for you only to find out that none of them could get off work to come save your ass!

[heliodoc]

Well sd

Never was a boss. I was "mid level" Station Mgr for a wildland fire operation and an aerial photo interpreter for two different agencies.  One was necessary personnel and the other was not.

We were  governed by Agency and OPM rules that governed our leave, and while there were "creative ways" of financing leave, one had to be smart about and manage it.  Both Agencies granted me my mil leave and again I had to be smart about it.  Permissions from out State Guard commanders allowed me to do drills out of state and when my supervisors allowed me to didi out of the area from the fire truck and crew, I still had to be smart and inform my superiors about my schedules.

There will paid agencies AND CAP to look for any downed aircraft.  Don't know where the Nay Sayers comes from, but CAP members working for the Feds and civilian sector  STILL have to be smart about working with supervisors about "CAP leave" which, in reality, is everyones vaca time.  Countless numbers of us give our time to whatever mission we can. 

Take it from a laid off State employee........ I'd rather be working and at this point in time,  leaving a job for a possible search and recovery for CAP seeems pretty far off for me and numerous others in my position.  It seems SILLY, in this economy, for folks in CAP, looking for new ways to get time off for missions, either through State or Federal  employment.

The only thing I would be for... is an equivalent "volunteer FMLA" ....2 weeks UNPAID in both Feds and State systems.  Today's economy gets what it can.  Remember the last Administration wanted VOLUNTEERISM...

How do you suppose CERT, Volunteers in Police Service, Medical reserve Corps , etc came along??    Professionals being asked to volunteer during the times of all risk all hazard operations...

How come CAP, in its 68 years, just can't be happy with getting along with their employers, get it together and figure it out??

Again this is coming from someone who has been recently laid off........ CAP members who are working are lucky to be working.

Fed, State and civilian sector DO NOT have to grant CAP leave unless it has been lawfully approved in those States.  Nay Sayers NAWWW.  Realists out here in the real world that see that CAP members are no more special than anyone else.  Besides there are paid folks looking for my ass if my wrecked ship goes down. I hope I would see both CAP and paid looking for me.  CAP has YET to corner the market on al things SAR

[DG]

Here's a proposal.

Instead of asking the company to pay for it.  (Leading to layoffs.)

Divide the cost among all the co-workers and take that contribution from each paycheck.

Patriotic duty.

[davedove]

A workable solution for federal workers would be to expand the military leave category.  Make it public service leave or something like that.  It would include guard/reserve time and whatever emergency services organizations they wanted to include.  Sure there would be a few who abuse the system, but that happens with any system.

The way it is now, volunteer emergency personnel have to take their normal annual leave to take off from work.  This works, but it also discourages some people from volunteering.  If the higher ups want to encourage people to volunteer, expanding the leave coverage would make it easier.

As far as workload being shifted to others, it seems to me when I go on leave from my federal job, the work that comes in during my absence is waiting for me when I get back.

[DG]

As far as workload being shifted to others, it seems to me when I go on leave from my federal job, the work that comes in during my absence is waiting for me when I get back.

Brings to mind one current situation I have.  A patent application for one of my clients that has not received a first Office Action though it has been pending for 3 years.