Another "wear" quandry...

[Prospector]

What is the rationale behind not being able to wear State National Guard awards and decorations on the CAP distinctive uniform?

It seems to me that a State National Guard (either Army or Air components - not volunteer State Defense Forces such as militias) are legitimate active military entities of our nation that require enlistments and commissions just like the reserves and active-duty, and therefore should be allowed to be worn after all federal awards and before CAP awards.

Does anyone have a clue why this is not authorized?

My thoughts on the hierarchy are as follows: Federal first, State second, then Non-State third should be the order.

I know I've been posting a lot on this subject matter - but please humor me.

[lordmonar]

State awards are not allowed on Federal orders....i.e. the USAF does not recognise them as legitimate awards......so neither do we.

Just as only those other service awards that are recognised by the USAF may be worn on CAP uniforms.


And this IS NOT a hit on NG awards....it is just the way the system works.

[Prospector]

Umm, I think you are incorrect here on a couple of different levels - not a flame, just an obs.

Army and Air National Guard wear the respective uniforms of their sister services - Army wears Army Active Duty uniforms - Air wears Air Force uniforms. When participating in federal service you cannot wear your state awards, however, when not on federal service you can and are actually required to wear them (at least most state regulations say so that I know of).

Basically what I am saying is that a State's Air National Guard is a recognized Air Force unit - albeit not federal unless activated. And since the Air Force does recognize its Air National Guard troops as Air Force, it doesn't make sense for CAP not to recognize them.

Now, the other problem with your answer is that I am specifically not talking about the AF-style uniform here, just the CAP distinctive. Since CAP has complete control over it's own uniform and what is worn on it, the argument that "because the Air Force doesn't allow it" doesn't hold water here.

Any other insights on the rationale? Is it more of a "let's not add to the confusion if we don't have to" mentality?

[Hawk200]

State decs used to be authorized, but they dropped off after one of the latest crappy rewrites. I still think it was some idiot that didn't know what they were, and figured they'd just write them out.

I think it really stinks that foreign decorations are authorized, but state ones aren't.

[Spike]

^ +1

CAP uniforms (although close in resemblance to Air Force uniforms) are NOT Air Force uniforms.  Some here have made that very clear in other threads.  Allowing a member to wear state awards on the CAP uniform does no harm, and will cause no confusion. 

Best thing to do, petition the uniform committee for a change!

[Hawk200]

Allowing a member to wear state awards on the CAP uniform does no harm...

Depends on what you mean by "no harm". There are a number of envious fragile egos out there. I've had people that couldn't stand the fact that I wore military decs, even to the point of referring to my military decs as "ostentatious" and saying that either I didn't deserve to wear them or I probably didn't really earn them. (Because we all know that the military just hands out decorations, right? {/sarcasm} )

I've only got three state decs from the last ten years of Guard time. Two of them don't cover anything that my Fed ribbons do, the other some may consider somewhat of a duplication. They were legitimately earned, but someone along the way decided that they shouldn't count.

I do know of a couple of states where the Wing received State awards for jobs well done. I think it sends a bad message when CAP members can't wear them.

[Spike]

I do know of a couple of states where the Wing received State awards for jobs well done. I think it sends a bad message when CAP members can't wear them.

YUP.  I know 3 Wings in the past 5 years.  I also know CAP Squadrons that received awards from TAG's, yet can't wear them.

[heliodoc]

Yep

Once again, CAP's approach to their own "little" world."

Nothing much matters when it come to military decorations, earned by those on AD, Guard or Reserve operations, YET they want to identified with SOMETHING military

Can't have it both ways, CAP

Time to identify State and Federal earned missions as those member in CAP who are still contributing while in uniform as well as we folks who have retired and CONTRIBUTING to CAP's mission(s).  I have earned only 6 during ARNG operations and one State award from the TAG of a State where I was a State EMA type.  So for CAP to put limits on military or REAL State earned Emergency Services missions ....is once again...LAME

Sheesh......... CAP and their fragile egos......... there is truly REAL BLING out there NOT just some banana republic ribbons and citations that CAP dictates about.....

[Pylon]

Yep

Once again, CAP's approach to their own "little" world."

Nothing much matters when it come to military decorations, earned by those on AD, Guard or Reserve operations, YET they want to identified with SOMETHING military

Can't have it both ways, CAP

Time to identify State and Federal earned missions as those member in CAP who are still contributing while in uniform as well as we folks who have retired and CONTRIBUTING to CAP's mission(s).  I have earned only 6 during ARNG operations and one State award from the TAG of a State where I was a State EMA type.  So for CAP to put limits on military or REAL State earned Emergency Services missions ....is once again...LAME

Sheesh......... CAP and their fragile egos......... there is truly REAL BLING out there NOT just some banana republic ribbons and citations that CAP dictates about.....

Stop blaming CAP for somehow excluding state decorations because of some perceived air of superiority. 

The Air Force tells us how we will wear their uniform.  The Air Force has complete authority and control over what we permit and what we do not permit on the CAP AF-style uniforms.  CAP can request we wear our uniforms a certain way, but those requests can be and are often denied or altered to suit the Air Force.  So the wear instructions are not imposed by CAP, but by the Air Force.

Frankly, the decoration wear policy for the CAP AF-style uniforms is the same as the Air Force policy when their uniforms are in "federal" mode, with the addition of CAP-specific ribbons.  That's the only difference.  If you want to complain and whine about state decorations not being perceived as legit, why beat up CAP when the Air Force themselves don't allow it when Guard troops are on federal duty?  How can CAP be the big, bad guy in your view when the Air Force isn't equally guilty for doing essentially the same thing?

Civil Air Patrol has its issues for sure, but let's not villainize them for things they're certainly not out their doing intentionally (if they had any control over it at all), as one might think if we only read heliodoc's post here.   You can't just fill in the blanks with whatever back-story makes the most sensation.  "In CAP, you can't wear state decorations... ergo, Civil Air Patrol must be territorial and look down upon state service, and allowing them would shatter the fragile egos their leaders must certainly have, yada yada..."   

Where's my jump to conclusions mat?

[MIKE]

The CGAux does not permit awards from state military departments on the Auxiliary uniform.  CAP awards are also noted as prohibited.

[lordmonar]

+1

CAP regulations are in tune with USAF regulations.  You can wear state decorations on state time but not on federal time.

CAP is the Auxillary of the FEDERAL USAF not the guard so it is only natural that we follow the federal rules.

This is not a hit on state awards......if anyone has a problem....go yell at the AF for not allowing state awards while on federal orders.

Now here is an intresting question......why have state awards at all?

I don't know how the Army does decorations my the ANG guy I know all get AF awards...  There is no restriction for NG people getting AF awards even if their actions were done on state time as opposed to federal time.

Not all states have their own awards.

On a side note to that.........if we were to start allowing State NG awards then we would soon be having State Defrence Force members asking to be allowed to were their awards.  Then we will have all those "Private" militias and military support organisations asking us to recognise their awards.

Anyone want to allow the U.S. Ranger Corp Medal of Valor to be worn on CAP uniforms? 

[heliodoc]

I'll take my hits here on this forum

I understand the USAF position... The CAP talkers here will set any one straight on uniform wear...just ask'em

MAYBE with all our different unis....Why yell at the AF???

Hell, reading all the CAP post here, convinces me that Ma Blue ought to drop us altogether, huh??

Then what will CAP do without the AF then?  How's that for an question??

I will not even wear the aircrew wings that I was awarded in the RM on CAP uniform 'cuz I  sure don't want to answer to CAP folks where and when I earned them.  CAP could exercise controls at the NHQ level by maybe eliminating ALLLLL RM decorations so they could keep their corporate mantra........ How about making a REAL 39-1 regarding ALLLLL decorations and REWRITING the entire 39-1 to delineate EVERYTHING about uniform wear with EXACTLY the same uniform issues and tell all  "the volunteer brothers at NHQ" this is it ....no deviations.... every fat and fuzzy to the gym or OUT.  How 'd that set with everybody???  I see rud happening every day from the Wing I am in.....and after a 30 hiatus from this Wing...I can villianize CAP for not EVEN following its own rules

So I will stand down on this issue....BUT believe you me, this thread will rear its ugly head at least 2 more times before the end of 2009....guarooooooooooteeeed!!

[Ned]

^^ OK, I just read this twice - slowly - and I have no idea what it means.

[Spike]

Maybe State Decorations on the CAP Corporate uniforms the AF does not have a say on??

[AlphaSigOU]

Agreed. While I'm a stickler for proper uniform wear, it does me no good to wrap myself around the axle over incorrect uniform combination designations. I earned my two RealMilitary® ribbons for my all-too-brief time in the Air Force, and I will continue to wear them proudly on my CAP uniform. I will also continue to wear my observer wings, even though my qualifications will expire during my time at Kwajalein. When I have the opportunity to requalify again I will attend NESA or the Texas Wing equivalent, LESA during my home leave.

[flyboy53]

I can understand the pride behind why someone would want to wear state ribbons on the CAP uniform. I have one, too. In this state (New York), I have known CAP officers who were on duty as National Guardsmen at the World Trade Center after 9-11, and I for one, wasn't about to tell them to take off that ribbon. However, there is another side to this whole issue: simplicity. We have a provision in our uniform regulations that limits the number of ribbons and badges to the notch on the uniform lapel...just like years ago in the Strategic Air Command when you weren't allowed to wear more ribbons than the wing commander. I can't wear my CAP and AF stuff together now without breaking that rule so I've always just worn my five rows of AF stuff...and one European foreign award. The thing is, we are a federally-chartered program and I'd rather wear my AF stuff because it means more....even though most CAP people have no clue what the ribbons mean. As officers (sic), we're supposed to present a professional image. Piles of ribbons don't ususally cut it and that includes the intent of the original question about wearing state ribbons on the corporate uniform. Haven't we junked that uniform up enough? Another thread on these hallowed pages dealt with the Texas National Guard adoping a ribbon like the encampment ribbon. Ever wonder what a National Guardsman thinks when they see all the CAP stuff?

[RiverAux]

It seems to me that a State National Guard (either Army or Air components - not volunteer State Defense Forces such as militias) are legitimate active military entities of our nation

State Defense Forces ARE legit military organizations.  They receive a lot of the same state military awards as members of the National Guard depending on the state. 

[Prospector]

Thanks everyone for the spirited debate on this. I definitely agree that there should be some limitations to the wear of awards and decorations on the uniforms (both AF and CAP).

I think that the limitation of how many ribbons can be worn at one time is a good solution - although adding State ribbons into the mix would be a good thing to re-adopt in my opinion. Again I think the main problem that seems to crop up in every posting I read is the lack of a definitive identity for the CAP. Either we are the Air Force Auxiliary - same as the Coast Guard Aux is, or we are not. If we are, great, then let's go with AF rules and regs, if not, then let's go with Corporate rules and regs and forget AF.

I guess that's the real crux of all these discussions - who is the CAP really? Are we truly a Corporate entity or are we the AF Auxiliary? Trying to maintain both identities is the problem I think.

It seems to me with Congress mandating a Board of Governors for CAP, that CAP is now solely a Coporate Entity that the Air Force can use as a "civilian contractor" as needed for AFEMs. If that is so, let's embrace our Corporate identity and act appropriately!

Let's choose one or the other and make the best of it.  End of rant.

[Stonewall]

Hold on, someone actually cares about state awards? 

[RiverAux]

Let's choose one or the other and make the best of it.

This is not for CAP to decide, but Congress.  It is Congress that has put us in this weird position of not being truly one thing or another but rather a strange government/private hybrid.  Unless CAP and the AF team up to approach Congress to change this (in whatever direction), we're going to stay the same as we are and have to make other decisions accordingly.