Air Force Sword

[schreiberboy]

Has there ever been any talk about bringing in the USAF or USAFA parade sword for cadet officers? 

[SarDragon]

Has there ever been any talk about bringing in the USAF or USAFA parade sword for cadet officers? 

I hope not!

[shorning]

Has there ever been any talk about bringing in the USAF or USAFA parade sword for cadet officers? 

Why?  What purpose would it serve?  When would they use it?  What need does it fulfill?  What about it being specifically banned by our regs?



BTW, the USAF does not have a sword.  The Academy does however.

[schreiberboy]

Has there ever been any talk about bringing in the USAF or USAFA parade sword for cadet officers? 

Why?  What purpose would it serve?  When would they use it?  What need does it fulfill?  What about it being specifically banned by our regs?

I think it could be used for the same reasons that it's used at the academy- for drill/parade cermonies.  I hadn't read about it being banned either, where does it mention that?

[mprokosch11]

During a parade our First Sergeant used his JROTC sword on the color guard, I wasnt sure if he could do that.

[schreiberboy]

During a parade our First Sergeant used his JROTC sword on the color guard, I wasnt sure if he could do that.

you were probably doing an army-style color guard like they do at my school- where the color guard commander stands in back?

[shorning]

I hadn't read about it being banned either, where does it mention that?

This demonstrates a good reason why cadets should be familiar the the rules that govern their programs. 

1-5c. Weapons. ...There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns, or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. ...

and

1.3. Restrictions. CAP regulations are the standards that all CAP members follow. Some of these regulations impact the Unit Honor Guard. For example, CAP Regulation 52-16 states that devices that can be used as a weapon are not allowed. Only non-operating (meaning not capable of firing) rifles are allowed. Therefore, no bayonets, sabers, swords, and the like, are allowed. ...

You can read it for yourself here and here.

[shorning]

...I wasnt sure if he could do that.

No, he can't.  See above.

[schreiberboy]

Thanks for informing me of that! I had seen the 52-16 1-5c but I didn't really consider a parade sword a weapon being that it isn't sharp (A butter knife could do more damage....) but the 52-8 makes it clear.

[mprokosch11]

During a parade our First Sergeant used his JROTC sword on the color guard, I wasnt sure if he could do that.

you were probably doing an army-style color guard like they do at my school- where the color guard commander stands in back?

No, he stood right next to the Senior rifleman.

[Chris Jacobs]

If there can be no weapons or any thing that can be used as a wepon at a cadet activity then how can cadets carry knifes for ground teams.  It is actualy in the ground team meber reference text.  So there seem to be exemptions to the rule.

[schreiberboy]

If there can be no weapons or any thing that can be used as a wepon at a cadet activity then how can cadets carry knifes for ground teams.  It is actualy in the ground team meber reference text.  So there seem to be exemptions to the rule.

I've heard (not read) that during SAREXs and such that you can carry a blade but it must be under 3 1/2 inches or something like that...

[schreiberboy]

No, he stood right next to the Senior rifleman.
[/quote]
Then i don't know what he was thinking- I'm suprised he got away with it- he really should have known better.  I have a JROTC sword too but I've never even thought of using it in a CAP color guard.

[Marine Corps Gal]

I think the sword would look awesome in parades too, but... ah well.

And YES, there must be exemptions to the "no-weapons-at-cadet-activities" rule, because knives ARE allowed.  It must be 3 and a half inches or less, but it is nevertheless allowed (I should know; I always carry one ).

[shorning]

I think the sword would look awesome in parades too, but... ah well.

And YES, there must be exemptions to the "no-weapons-at-cadet-activities" rule, because knives ARE allowed.  It must be 3 and a half inches or less, but it is nevertheless allowed (I should know; I always carry one ).

I'm going to guess that you didn't bother to read the regs and aren't familiar with the law.

[mikeylikey]

So when do you think Vanguard will start selling this sword?

[Pylon]

So when do you think Vanguard will start selling this sword?

Stirring the pot, I see?   

[smj58501]

Are light sabers forbidden? They are weapons by imagination only consisting of technology that has not been invented yet, even though they were used a long time ago in a place far, far away....

[Al Sayre]

You usually can't let two cadets have brooms at the same time without either a mock sword fight or a mock cudgel fight breaking out.  Why on earth would we want to give them real weapons?  Do you know how much paperwork we would have to fill out if someone got stabbed?   That would really cut into our donut eatin time...   Seriously though, it would be a bad idea.

[shorning]

Do you know how much paperwork we would have to fill out if someone got stabbed?

Speaking of which, the staple, ruler and pen could also be weapons.  But I digress...

[Pylon]

Do you know how much paperwork we would have to fill out if someone got stabbed?

Speaking of which, the staple, ruler and pen could also be weapons.  But I digress...

Which gives rise to ridiculous sounding exclamations like:

Cadet Admin Officer!  Put down that stapler!  That's dangerous.... well, supposedly...

[Al Sayre]

Do you know how much paperwork we would have to fill out if someone got stabbed?

Speaking of which, the staple, ruler and pen could also be weapons.  But I digress...

Which gives rise to ridiculous sounding exclamations like:

Cadet Admin Officer!  Put down that stapler!  That's dangerous.... well, supposedly...

(Donning tinfoil hat...)

Next new regulation:  All Cadets must use non-toxic washable finger paint for filling out paperwork.  Forms with multiple sections will be printed on 18" x 24" paper to eliminate the need for stapling and such forms are NOT to be cut "to size" by using any sharp or pointed implement.  Forms shall not be rolled up to prevent Cadets from poking someone in the eye.  All rulers and other measuring devices shall be bolted or screwed to a table or wall and the object to be measured will be brought to the measurement device for measurement.   

[pixelwonk]

"...because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire... "

[Pylon]

"...because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire... "

Hahaha!  Great photo, Tedd!   

[pixelwonk]

couldn't resist 

[ZigZag911]

Do you know how much paperwork we would have to fill out if someone got stabbed?

Speaking of which, the staple, ruler and pen could also be weapons.  But I digress...

Which gives rise to ridiculous sounding exclamations like:

Cadet Admin Officer!  Put down that stapler!  That's dangerous.... well, supposedly...

(Donning tinfoil hat...)

Next new regulation:  All Cadets must use non-toxic washable finger paint for filling out paperwork.  Forms with multiple sections will be printed on 18" x 24" paper to eliminate the need for stapling and such forms are NOT to be cut "to size" by using any sharp or pointed implement.  Forms shall not be rolled up to prevent Cadets from poking someone in the eye.  All rulers and other measuring devices shall be bolted or screwed to a table or wall and the object to be measured will be brought to the measurement device for measurement.   

Not a concern now that CAP is "paperless"....of course, all that computer keyboarding brings its own 'risks', such as eye strain, back ache, and carpal tunnel syndrome!

[BillB]

But the Pen is mightier than the sword. So equip each cadet with a pen. Come to think of it, better make it a felt tip pen.

[schreiberboy]

But the Pen is mightier than the sword. So equip each cadet with a pen. Come to think of it, better make it a felt tip pen.

And the chaplain better watch out, carrying that sword of the spirit...

[ZigZag911]

Ah....but is the laser printer mightier than the pen?!?

[schreiberboy]

Ah....but is the laser printer mightier than the pen?!?

we all better start wearing armor...some of those upper-enlisted cadet ranks could be used to make spears.  I suggest we get a tip-guard installed on them, and forget pinning on rank, let's use glue!  but not from a glue gun...that might burn us...and a gun is considered a weapon and therefore we shouldn't have one...so on second thought, velcro rank? 

[afgeo4]

The USAF doesn't have a sword, true, but... The Air Force Sabre is used by the officers in the USAF Honor Guard...  I don't know how to html or I'd post a photo.

I think cermonial sabres could have a place in CAP Honor Guard for ceremonial use only to be secured by senior members when not in use.  Otherwise it's a bad, bad idea.   By the way, our cadets are permitted to learn and use firearms as part of the cadet programs.  Is that any less dangerous than supervised use of sabres/swords?

[ZigZag911]

[/quote]

(Donning tinfoil hat...)

Next new regulation:  All Cadets must use non-toxic washable finger paint for filling out paperwork.  Forms with multiple sections will be printed on 18" x 24" paper to eliminate the need for stapling and such forms are NOT to be cut "to size" by using any sharp or pointed implement.  Forms shall not be rolled up to prevent Cadets from poking someone in the eye.  All rulers and other measuring devices shall be bolted or screwed to a table or wall and the object to be measured will be brought to the measurement device for measurement.   

[/quote]

Now that we're paperless, our emphasis should be on not sticking their AF swords in electric sockets!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Please refer to CAPR 69-4, Paragraph 1-9, (A) through (B):

Sabres:  Sabres are authorized for CAP officers in the grades of 2nd Lt and above.  Sabres will not be used during regular training nor in the field.  Sabres will not be used on the flight line.  Sabres will not be used by cadet officers. 

All sabres used by CAP officers identified in (A) above will be plastic, brightly colored, and approximately 3 inches in length.  They will be used solely for the purpose of facilitating the consumption of fruit or fruit slices when such fruit or fruit slices are added to cocktails to enhance the flavor or appearance of such cocktails.  Possession of more than one sabre per officer is authorized, and sabres may be lined up on the bar to assist the officer in maintaining a count of cocktails consumed.

[bosshawk]

No swords, please.  There are too many "CAP Officers" on these posts who would be tempted to fall on those swords over things like uniforms, patches and ribbons.

[Major_Chuck]

No swords!  Light Sabre's...that is the way to go....

[davedove]

Not a concern now that CAP is "paperless"....of course, all that computer keyboarding brings its own 'risks', such as eye strain, back ache, and carpal tunnel syndrome!

But it does bring to mind the real reason to go paperless:  to avoid all those nasty papercuts!

[DNall]

Please refer to CAPR 69-4, Paragraph 1-9, (A) through (B):

Sabres:  Sabres are authorized for CAP officers in the grades of 2nd Lt and above.  Sabres will not be used during regular training nor in the field.  Sabres will not be used on the flight line.  Sabres will not be used by cadet officers. 

All sabres used by CAP officers identified in (A) above will be plastic, brightly colored, and approximately 3 inches in length.  They will be used solely for the purpose of facilitating the consumption of fruit or fruit slices when such fruit or fruit slices are added to cocktails to enhance the flavor or appearance of such cocktails.  Possession of more than one sabre per officer is authorized, and sabres may be lined up on the bar to assist the officer in maintaining a count of cocktails consumed.

Nice! 

There are sabres in all AF commissioning programs & they really get used in ceremonial parades (including honor guards), which is the only place they're useful. The tradition is for officers never to be armed w/ rifles, only swords or pisols. Not that it matters since we don't have a choice. The only two places I can think of it being appropriate would be pass in review at encampment & possibly for the commander of an exhibition/ceremonial drill team. However, I happen to think the reg is a good idea as written, for the reasons cited above. OTS pix below:

[ThorntonOL]

For the allowed knifes is that blade length or the entire length?

[Short Field]

Well, I have a Air Force Sword stored in the closet but didn't have a clue as to the regs covering the wear of it.  There are no USAF regs that cover it.  This is the best I could find on the internet but it tracks with my experience - normally cutting the cake at the USAF Birthday Ball:

The Air Force ceremonial sword is one of those "unwritten traditions." Ceremonial Swords may be carried by Air Force personnel (cadets, enlisted, officers) for any formal ceremony which warrants it. An example would be honor guard, or a group of NCOs/Officers performing the "Arch" at a military wedding. Generally, permission (and a briefing) must be obtained from the Wing Protocol Office before wearing a sword, in uniform at any ceremony (except for those who do so routinely, such as honor guard members -- they are generally covered by local -- Wing level -- honor guard policy or regulations, telling them when to wear the sword or not).

[Cecil DP]

So when do you think Vanguard will start selling this sword?

Truthfully, They had one at last year's National Board meeting in Atlanta. Looked like a variation of the USAFA sword. Cost about $300, maybe $350.

[PHall]

Well, I have a Air Force Sword stored in the closet but didn't have a clue as to the regs covering the wear of it.  There are no USAF regs that cover it.  This is the best I could find on the internet but it tracks with my experience - normally cutting the cake at the USAF Birthday Ball:

The Air Force ceremonial sword is one of those "unwritten traditions." Ceremonial Swords may be carried by Air Force personnel (cadets, enlisted, officers) for any formal ceremony which warrants it. An example would be honor guard, or a group of NCOs/Officers performing the "Arch" at a military wedding. Generally, permission (and a briefing) must be obtained from the Wing Protocol Office before wearing a sword, in uniform at any ceremony (except for those who do so routinely, such as honor guard members -- they are generally covered by local -- Wing level -- honor guard policy or regulations, telling them when to wear the sword or not).

I believe the only place that would have a reg covering swords would be the Air Force Academy.
Probably a AFCW series reg.

[SAR-EMT1]

I just wanted to mention... someone above mentioned that the USAF used the pretty-pointy-thing in all commissioning programs...
Um, I was AFROTC for several years and my roommate was in both AAS and Drill Team. Neither group ever had access to a sword much less used one as part of a ceremony or anything. Cadet Wing King was from my hometown in fact (and we were members of BSA, CAP and the same church at the same time too but i digress)


Point is he didnt have a metal toothpick either. If the Cadet Colonel doesnt have one, aint no one gonna have one.
And they didnt exist at Field Training that I know of either.

YMMV

[Short Field]

^^^Same here.  The one in my closet belongs to my wife.  It was awarded to her as the top AFROTC cadet during the annual awards ceremony.   I missed that but did get back from overseas the next day in time to commission her.   

[wingnut55]

But Lattie, you must ride in front of your men and cry "FREEDOM", and then we can all pull up our pretty CAP Blue Kilts and wag the dog, truly a sight that NHQ will not forget.

Don't throw it, it is really cheap and will break, don't Barbee either, it is made in China and so your meat will have lead in it.

and as a former Cadet (When CAP flew AT6s) wouldn't you love to Carry it when we park cars at an air show, I mean, a guy does not stop, we stab his tire, Cool, like Rambo. Dude

[JayT]

Has there ever been any talk about bringing in the USAF or USAFA parade sword for cadet officers? 

Well, now there's been.

But before that, no, no one cares.

[Hawk200]

I wonder how many people would want a sword once they know how much they cost. And once they know how much they cost, how many would demand that CAP issue them one. There are some people in this organization that think that CAP owes them. The sense of entitlement is idotic for a volunteer organization.

All in all, I think the expense would outweigh the "cool" factor once it's known.

[Flying Pig]

Having worn an NCO sword as a Marine, they are really a pain in the rear.  And frankly, you need a certain body shape to get away with wearing a sword.  Having a 15 year old with a 14 inch waist and a sword and belt cinched around them doesn't' look all that great.

[mikeylikey]

Having a 15 year old with a 14 inch waist and a sword and belt cinched around them doesn't' look all that great.

PLUS.....do you really want to explain to Mom and Dad why little Johny or Suzie is missing an ear, or be on the conference call with NHQ trying to get medical expenses paid for your Cadet who is now in the ICU??

The AF hardly uses swords/sabres etc.  CAP absolutely does not need them! 

It is only a "cool bling item".  If they want bling, HAWK MTN is still accepting applications until the end of June!!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, CAP has a sword.

You can order it from Vanguard.  It says "Civil Air Patrol" in pretty script writing right on the blade, and has a little picture of a high-wing single-engine patrol plane on it.

It costs something in the way of $400 with shipping. 

I do not know what it can be used for. 

Well, I know, but there are regulations against carving out the livers of cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

Something just seems dreadfully wrong about having a Cessna etched onto a sword...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Something just seems dreadfully wrong about having a Cessna etched onto a sword...

In the interest of accuracy, I am not sure if it is a Cessna or an old Piper.

[mikeylikey]

^ Why do we even have a CAP Sword available from Vanguard, when they can't produce NCO slides, Flight Officer Rank Insignia, and other things that the members need??

STUPID Vanguard, and stupid sword

[JohnKachenmeister]

Why do you ask a question in the first paragraph only to answer your own question in the second paragraph?   

[RRLE]

Vanguard CAP Sword (pictures) Thread