Question..

[Daniel]

i recieved a call from my commander...

He wanted my assistance in helping move his nieghbor into her new house.

We were in civilian clothes as this had nothing to do with CAP

but was I supposed to have complete miltary courtesies since he is my commander and an officer

or since this has nothing to do with cap was calling him sir enough?

[DC]

If both of you were in civvies and it was totally non-CAP, showing him the due respect that you would show any other adult would suffice IMO.

[Daniel]

there was a few members there, but that was it.

[BrandonKea]

Seems a little odd to me that a squadron commander would call a cadet to help a friend move, but stranger things have happened...

+1 to DC's comments, he's still your squadron commander, you probably aren't going to show up saying "Hey Jim!" or whatever his name is.

[Eclipse]

I'm going to go ahead and say this was a big non-no.  YMMV

CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.  The fact that more than one other member was there makes it worse, and if something happened, trying to convince an IG or other court that this wasn't a CAP activity isn't going to fly.

As to the actual question - Sir's and Ma'am's are appropriate.  That person is still your commander, and an adult - its doesn't matter what they are wearing.

[Daniel]

He told me what I was getting into before I agreed to it so I don't think I was free labour.

That and his nieghbor was 70 years old and broke her arm moving in

Also non-cap members we're there too

[EMT-83]

I would think that a "Good Morning, Sir" would about cover the C&C for the day.

Sounds like this was a great opportunity to help out a member of the community who found herself in a tough spot.

[Daniel]

Thats what I looked at it as.

And as a cadet should when he asked a question I came to attention answering yes sir or no sir.

[BrandonKea]

Thats what I looked at it as.

And as a cadet should when he asked a question it was coming to attention saying yes sir or no sir.

I think you meant to ask if you should come to attention when he was asking you a question?

No, simply being respectful and using "sir" would be sufficient, IMO.

[BrandonKea]

I'm going to go ahead and say this was a big non-no.  YMMV

CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.  The fact that more than one other member was there makes it worse, and if something happened, trying to convince an IG or other court that this wasn't a CAP activity isn't going to fly.

As to the actual question - Sir's and Ma'am's are appropriate.  That person is still your commander, and an adult - its doesn't matter what they are wearing.

How in the world could this be construed as a CAP activity? If I go out to Chilli's after a meeting with my squadron commander, is that a CAP activity? If I see him at the store, is that suddenly a CAP activity?

[Daniel]

I eddited for grammar reasons.

basically I just didn't salute him as when moving boxes that becomes difficult especially when you pass each other 6,000 times


@kea's last post, that was funny for some odd reason

[BrandonKea]

I eddited for grammar reasons.

basically I just didn't salute him as when moving boxes that becomes difficult especially when you pass each other 6,000 times

I would really hope you didn't salute him because you weren't in uniform.

[Daniel]

At encampment

(which we we're told is how to model ourselves)

We soluted even when we were out of uniform

[BrandonKea]

At encampment

(which we we're told is how to model ourselves)

We soluted even when we were out of uniform

That would be incorrect regardless of it being at encampment or not.

[Eclipse]

At encampment

(which we we're told is how to model ourselves)

We soluted even when we were out of uniform

That would be incorrect regardless of it being at encampment or not.

Not necessarily.

As to whether this was a "CAP Activity" - see how well that flies if someone gets hurt - lawyer asks the connection, you say he's your commander.  That's what lawyers do.  Anything to try an reach into the deep pockets of CAP.   You might be surprised what your parents would do if you were permanently injured or disabled.

Frankly, you'd all have been better served doing it as a CAP activity in the vein of community service.  At least you'd potentially have some liability protection.

Everyone should be clear on this - play all the jailhouse lawyer games you want about why or how things aren't "CAP Activities" - "you all just happened to show up together", "it was after the meeting", "we weren't in uniform", etc., make your case, but unless you're related to the other members, especially cadets, there will be no separating CAP from the involvement.  You know them because of CAP.

Commanders should maintain the bright line between themselves and their members, especially cadets, in the same way that teachers maintain the line between themselves and students.

[BrandonKea]

As to whether this was a "CAP Activity" - see how well that flies if someone gets hurt - lawyer asks the connection, you say he's your commander.  That's what lawyers do.  Anything to try an reach into the deep pockets of CAP.   You might be surprised what your parents would do if you were permanently injured or disabled.

It was not a CAP activity, period. Our commanders are not held responsible for our actions outside of CAP, unlike in the military.

Frankly, you'd all have been better served doing it as a CAP activity in the vein of community service.  At least you'd potentially have some liability protection.

CAP Moving Service? Really? I hope I just missed the sarcasm.

Everyone should be clear on this - play all the jailhouse lawyer games you want about why or how things aren't "CAP Activities" - "you all just happened to show up together", "it was after the meeting", "we weren't in uniform", etc., make your case, but unless you're related to the other members, especially cadets, there will be no separating CAP from the involvement.  You know them because of CAP.

Again, the moment I show up with someone at an outside place, on MY time, I am NOT on a CAP activity. I work with a guy in CAP. Doesn't mean my time at work is a CAP activity. If a CAP Pilot is also an airline pilot and he happens to fly a cadet on the aircraft, it's not a Cadet Orientation flight.

There IS a clear line where the CAP activities start and stop.

Commanders should maintain the bright line between themselves and their members, especially cadets, in the same way that teachers maintain the line between themselves and students.

I agree somewhat with this. Should cadets be called to help a friend of the commander move? No, not in my opinion. Is it wrong? He's not likely to lose his command over it...

[heliodoc]

Daniel

Lots o info here, right?

On Active Duty folks were always helping each other move in or out or asking folks to do so regardless of rank and grade

You did alright by calling him "sir"

It was OBVIOUSLY NOT a CAP activity.  Hell, I have helped CAPers on their cars 20 years ago when they ran sprint cars on  pit crew and it was not a CAP activity

I wouldn't worry about it or loose ANY sleep over it!!

[JC004]

...
CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.
...

NOOOOOO!   

[Spike]

...
CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.
...

NOOOOOO!   

YESSSSSS! 

[Daniel]

   You might be surprised what your parents would do if you were permanently injured or disabled.

God beat you and my commander to the punch xD

[BrandonKea]

   You might be surprised what your parents would do if you were permanently injured or disabled.

God beat you and my commander to the punch xD

...huh?

[Daniel]

I'm disabled. I have mild cerebral palsy.

Its not big, just thought It was kinda funny.

[BrandonKea]

I'm disabled. I have mild cerebral palsy.

Its not big, just thought It was kinda funny.

Oh, ok...

[MSG Mac]

I'm going to go ahead and say this was a big non-no.  YMMV

CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.  The fact that more than one other member was there makes it worse, and if something happened, trying to convince an IG or other court that this wasn't a CAP activity isn't going to fly.

As to the actual question - Sir's and Ma'am's are appropriate.  That person is still your commander, and an adult - its doesn't matter what they are wearing.

How in the world could this be construed as a CAP activity? If I go out to Chilli's after a meeting with my squadron commander, is that a CAP activity? If I see him at the store, is that suddenly a CAP activity?

There have been several instances where a CAP member was injured while at a "Non" CAP affair which was called  by their Commander. When they get hurt at the activity, lawyers tend to say, The Captain or Commander asked them to do this so it is a CAP Activity. lawyers tend to file against the largest pocket.

[BrandonKea]

I'm going to go ahead and say this was a big non-no.  YMMV

CAP Cadets are not a free labor pool, friend or otherwise.  The fact that more than one other member was there makes it worse, and if something happened, trying to convince an IG or other court that this wasn't a CAP activity isn't going to fly.

As to the actual question - Sir's and Ma'am's are appropriate.  That person is still your commander, and an adult - its doesn't matter what they are wearing.

How in the world could this be construed as a CAP activity? If I go out to Chilli's after a meeting with my squadron commander, is that a CAP activity? If I see him at the store, is that suddenly a CAP activity?

There have been several instances where a CAP member was injured while at a "Non" CAP affair which was called  by their Commander. When they get hurt at the activity, lawyers tend to say, The Captain or Commander asked them to do this so it is a CAP Activity. lawyers tend to file against the largest pocket.

Is there an example of this? Obviously lawyers can sue whomever they want, but were any of these lawsuits successful?

[Daniel]

So we should have left they 70-year old lady with a broken arm unload her heavy stuff?

In that pretense If 2 senior members get married and have a son/daughter as a cadet.. and (s)he gets hurt some how they can sue CAP?

[BrandonKea]

So we should have left they 70-year old lady with a broken arm unload her heavy stuff?

In that pretense If 2 senior members get married and have a son/daughter as a cadet.. and (s)he gets hurt some how they can sue CAP?

I would say that their marriage and that child's entire life is a CAP activity. :-D

[Daniel]

Maybe this is the teenage mentality kicking in

but it seems like the only way cap and cap-like organizations can stay perfectly legal is to sit around and twiddle our thumbs each week taking 20 minute stretching breaks so we don't get carpal tunnel.

and this wasn't even a cap activity

[BrandonKea]

Maybe this is the teenage mentality kicking in

but it seems like the only way cap and cap-like organizations can stay perfectly legal is to sit around and twiddle our thumbs each week taking 20 minute stretching breaks so we don't get carpal tunnel.

and this wasn't even a cap activity

I'm glad you get it :-)

[NC Hokie]

but it seems like the only way cap and cap-like organizations can stay perfectly legal is to sit around and twiddle our thumbs each week taking 20 minute stretching breaks so we don't get carpal tunnel.

Mmmmmm...wise is the young padawan to the ways of the lawyers.  Far will he go, yes!

[Daniel]

well sir,

we can't test anymore, paper cuts.

I'm done being a teen now, its time to act like an C/A1C again :-)

[jimmydeanno]

On the customs and courtesies thing...

Why would you change how you address people simply because you were out of the environment you normally are?  When you are at school, do you not call your teachers "Mr. Soandso?"  If you were out and about town and you ran into your teacher, would you call him "Jim" instead?

So take it to this activity.  Your Squadron Commander asks if you'd like to help.  You say, "Yes Sir, I would."  Is there any reason that you wouldn't continue to call him Sir regardless?  Did you call the nice old lady with the broken arm "Ma'am" at all, or did you call her Judy?

Just remember that Customs and Courtesies are signs of respect for individuals.  It is never inappropriate to show respect for people.  Why would anyone show different levels of that respect in different situations? 

As for saluting and such?  You weren't in uniform, so no, that would have been inappropriate, but titles of address are appropriate in all situations - regardless of whether or not it's a CAP activity.

I live in a small town, and have about 5 of our cadets that live locally (our unit is about 30 minutes away).  I run into them at around the school, Walmart, the movie store and even the barber shop a couple times.  Despite that, none of them EVER call me by my first name.  They'll either address me as Sir, as in "How are you doing, Sir?" or they'll actually call me "Major," "It's good to see you Major."

Now, on whether or not the nice thing you guys did for the woman, I wouldn't call it a CAP activity.  We make many friends and associations in our organization.  People belong to many organizations, etc.  Just because a couple of people from the local unit are together, doing the same thing, doesn't make it a CAP activity.

What if they are all members of the VFW AND CAP?  Does it make it a VFW event?  No.
What if a bunch of union construction workers go to the local bar for a few drinks?  Does it become a Union sponsored drinking event? No. 

But, even if this was a CAP event, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it being so.  Our cadet oath states, "...and advance my education and training rapidly to be of service to my community..."  At some point, that education and training is going to be used outside of the CAP arena, so why not actually help the community by providing a much needed service to this woman?

There wasn't anyone forcing anyone to do it, it was a group of people epitomizing the CAP Core Value of Volunteer Service and Respect, being of service to their community.

There is no more risk involved in this activity than there is reorganizing the squadron building, running the encampment obstacle course, going to Hawk Mountain, etc.  I'm sure that even if it was an officially sanctioned CAP event that nobody would dispute the legitimacy of what they were doing.

[BrandonKea]

I live in a small town, and have about 5 of our cadets that live locally (our unit is about 30 minutes away).  I run into them at around the school, Walmart, the movie store and even the barber shop a couple times.  Despite that, none of them EVER call me by my first name.  They'll either address me as Sir, as in "How are you doing, Sir?" or they'll actually call me "Major," "It's good to see you Major."

Sorry to hijack, but you reminded me of something...

:-) I was at a theme park in Kansas City with a group of IACE cadets several years back. We were having a good ol' time, riding the rides and seeing the sights. We waited in line for awhile to get onto one of the better roller coasters, and as we were being strapped in, I thought I was hearing someone yelling my name. I looked around, but saw no one. We took our trip on the roller coaster, and as we came back to the loading/unloading zone, I heard it again... "Lieutenant Kea, LIEUTENANT KEA!!!" and there's this kid waving his hands around and jumping up and down. All these IACE cadets are looking at me like "Who is this guy?" (and to be honest, I had no clue just that moment)

We get off the roller coaster and I go over and go to talk to this kid, and he's like "Lieutenant Kea! Remember me from encampment?? I was in Echo Flight and then I was in that flight that you commanded for like a day! I just wanted to say hi and thank you, you taught me a lot and now I'm a C/TSgt." I smiled, first at the fact that I remembered him now, only a C/Amn at the time, and in my special one day only flight that was deemed to need more training in customs and courtesies. And second, I smiled because he remembered me, and picked me out of a crowd to tell me that I helped him. I congratulated him, and seeing my IACE cadets running off on me, told him I had to run.

And as I walked away, I turned and told him "Oh yeah, I got promoted too, I'm a Cadet Captain now!" He snapped to attention and said "Sorry sir!" I laughed and said "No worries, see ya later."

I have no idea what that Cadet went on to do, but I like to think that I at least helped him see that customs and courtesies are important, in or outside of CAP.

[Nathan]

For me personally, if I'm out of uniform, I don't expect saluting. If I'm at a meeting out of uniform, I still expect the rank because, well, I'm in a CAP setting. But if I'm at the mall, and happen to bump into some C/Amn from the squadron, I honestly have no problem if they refer to me by my last name only. If I hear it, it will let me know, "CAP", but to be referred to by rank is a little outlandish in an enviornment where my rank and authority in CAP has no meaning.

I am not particularly okay with being called by my first name out of uniform unless it is either another senior member or a cadet I worked closely with while I was a cadet.

Most cadets don't seem to be able to make the separation, and once they are allowed to call you by first name, they assume they are on "buddy terms", and next thing you know, you're getting facebook messages with Youtube videos involving dogs burping with the caption, "LOLRZ TIS IS FUNNY .

[Daniel]

I live in a small town, and have about 5 of our cadets that live locally (our unit is about 30 minutes away).  I run into them at around the school, Walmart, the movie store and even the barber shop a couple times.  Despite that, none of them EVER call me by my first name.  They'll either address me as Sir, as in "How are you doing, Sir?" or they'll actually call me "Major," "It's good to see you Major."

Sorry to hijack, but you reminded me of something...

:-) I was at a theme park in Kansas City with a group of IACE cadets several years back. We were having a good ol' time, riding the rides and seeing the sights. We waited in line for awhile to get onto one of the better roller coasters, and as we were being strapped in, I thought I was hearing someone yelling my name. I looked around, but saw no one. We took our trip on the roller coaster, and as we came back to the loading/unloading zone, I heard it again... "Lieutenant Kea, LIEUTENANT KEA!!!" and there's this kid waving his hands around and jumping up and down. All these IACE cadets are looking at me like "Who is this guy?" (and to be honest, I had no clue just that moment)

We get off the roller coaster and I go over and go to talk to this kid, and he's like "Lieutenant Kea! Remember me from encampment?? I was in Echo Flight and then I was in that flight that you commanded for like a day! I just wanted to say hi and thank you, you taught me a lot and now I'm a C/TSgt." I smiled, first at the fact that I remembered him now, only a C/Amn at the time, and in my special one day only flight that was deemed to need more training in customs and courtesies. And second, I smiled because he remembered me, and picked me out of a crowd to tell me that I helped him. I congratulated him, and seeing my IACE cadets running off on me, told him I had to run.

And as I walked away, I turned and told him "Oh yeah, I got promoted too, I'm a Cadet Captain now!" He snapped to attention and said "Sorry sir!" I laughed and said "No worries, see ya later."

I have no idea what that Cadet went on to do, but I like to think that I at least helped him see that customs and courtesies are important, in or outside of CAP.

OHHHHHH you went to WOF/OOF!

I went there this weekend

ontopic: So if most people in this thread are correct then I did really nothing wrong

[jimmydeanno]

...I did really nothing wrong.

"Squid,"

It sounds like you're a good cadet.  If you just maintain your positive attitude and continue with your desire to help people, you'll be just fine.  You did nothing wrong.  In fact, you did everything right.  More people would be served well by your example.

Keep up the good job and thanks for your commitment.

[Eclipse]

ontopic: So if most people in this thread are correct then I did really nothing wrong

Daniel, you did nothing wrong.  All you did was help an old lady at your Commander's request.

That doesn't necessarily mean the situation was right.  As Commanders it is our responsibility to
consider the consequences of days that don't go according to plan and protect all parties and the organization to the extent its possible.

[Eclipse]

What if they are all members of the VFW AND CAP?  Does it make it a VFW event?  No.
What if a bunch of union construction workers go to the local bar for a few drinks?  Does it become a Union sponsored drinking event? No. 

In neither case could you show that the only affiliation between the members was CAP, and in your examples, neither is a Commander/subordinate situation.

But, even if this was a CAP event, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it being so. 

As I said, this would likely have been better done as an in-uniform CAP activity, since there would be no questions as to protocol or protection.  No reason it couldn't have been.

[jimmydeanno]

In neither case could you show that the only affiliation between the members was CAP, and in your examples, neither is a Commander/subordinate situation.

My only point with that was just because people belong to the same group doesn't mean if they are found together it becomes that groups activity.  Nor does it mean that if you draw on that pool of resources you have contact with, does it become a CAP actiivty.

I used to work for my squadron commander.  He offered me the job.  Does that mean he was offering me the job as my squadron commander or my future boss?  The latter.

My wife lives in the same house I do and I'm her [CAP] supervisor.  We both helped our neighbors with a yardsale.  Does that mean someone is going to kick us out of CAP for doing an "unapproved fundraising event?"

Would it be prudent for the commander to say, "Hey, this isn't a CAP event, but I know you might want to help?" Sure.  Necessary? No.   Because we all live in the real world where common sense usually comes through.

As for the uniform, we do PT in shorts and a T-Shirt, why can't we move boxes for an old lady with a broken arm in them too?

[Daniel]

At that rate,

its not like I hid what I was doing from my folks or anything.

My mum woke me up from a dead sleep to tell me my commander wants my help to move someone

[LtCol Hooligan]

You know- since this was done outside of CAP- it would qualify for hours towards your community service ribbon.  You should ask her to sign your sheet and put it in your file so you can keep earning your hours.  Nice job to help her Daniel.  I am sure you made her month!! 

Oh- and most commanders will tell you if you are doing something wrong.  He would have said "Cadet, call me George today" if he wanted you to do so.  I think he was happy you were there and contributing to your community.  This is Character Development at it's finest.  Keep up the good work.

[Daniel]

On the topic of suing cap.

You know the most dangerous activity I have done in CAP

The activity that I end up bleeding every time I do it?

Uniform prep.

I nick myself with the pins and burn myself on the iron every time
have I sued cap yet? No. because I'm not trying to get CAPs money
Heck I've donated to cap like 6 times in my 6 month membership.

[notaNCO forever]

On the topic of suing cap.

You know the most dangerous activity I have done in CAP

The activity that I end up bleeding every time I do it?

Uniform prep.

I nick myself with the pins and burn myself on the iron every time
have I sued cap yet? No. because I'm not trying to get CAPs money
Heck I've donated to cap like 6 times in my 6 month membership.

I think it is more your insurance company that CAP is worried about getting sued by.

[Spike]

Unless you live in the same neighborhood as the lady moving, your Commander was wrong in asking for your help.  CAP Cadets are not a labor pool!  He used your sympathies toward the old lady and her condition to motivate you into helping. 

Let me ask....who else helped you mover her??

As far as customs and courtesies go, it is not improper to render a salute if you and the Officer are both out of uniform.  You still know he is an Officer....nothing changes that fact.  Just because there is no uniform doesn't mean rank goes away.  If you didn't want to salute because it felt weird, a simple "Sir" is all that is needed.

In the end I hope he at least bought you lunch.  If not, he is totally in the wrong.

(I would never ask Cadets to use their time to help me help someone else move.  Improper situation!!!  Unless the person moving is known to you, and the person wanted you there specifically.  Even then I would feel funny about asking you.)

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

[Spike]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

Wow...you misconstrued my point entirely.  Katrina was a CAP ACTIVITY.  IT WAS A CAP ACTIVITY.  IT WAS A CAP ACTIVITY. 

Helping an Old Lady Move is NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.  IS NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.  IS NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.

Now having said that....Helping an Old Lady move is a personal choice far removed from anything CAP.  What this Cadets Commander did was use CAP as a way to get the young Cadet to HELP.  That was improper.

Getting hurt moving a box would fall to his parents insurance policy.  Getting hurt moving a box during the Aftermath of Katrina while on the CAP roster in CAP uniform would fall to either CAP Corporate or Air Force Insurance policies. 

This discussion is not about insurance though.  It is about customs and courtesies outside of CAP.  I answered that, and gave my opinion on the actions of the Cadets Commander.  YOU brought into play something totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Please don't make it seem like I am against helping OLD PEOPLE with things.

Also, I went to help after Katrina.....so I have been there done that, if that is what card you wanted to play.

Don't mix apples and oranges here. 

[Eclipse]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

Jimmy,

I have to ask, are actually reading your responses before hit "post"?   It looks to me like you're simply ignoring the facts and the details to make your argument.

Katrina was an official CAP mission.  Helping some random person, regardless of the circumstance, is not.  We have a process, regulations, and rules for how we provide resources and assistance, and they don't include the above, especially out of uniform, and with no activity approval.

Frankly, as more details come out, this sounds more and more like a bad idea, at least as it was handled.

"Commander calls up with no notice and says, 'come help me move furniture for someone you don't know'.  Were someone injured or something expensive broken, lawyers would have a field day with that.

That seems to be lost on a lot of people when these discussions come up - the people making the legal arguments won't be coffee house lawyers with the most benevolent interpretation of every regulation and intention, they will be high-priced minutia-hounds with the sole purpose of finding enough of a chink in the defense's armor that they can win an argument in court, or more likely receive an out of court settlement.

Free citizens are entitled to do anything they want, but their status as members of organizations which have rules and regs doesn't end just because they flip some mental switch, especially when we're talking about adult commanders and cadet subordinates.

[Short Field]

The big issue is did the cadet go simply because it was his Commander calling him.  That is where the abuse of position issue comes into play.   Commanders in the RM worry about this all the time as it can and does get them removed from Command.  "Hey Sarge, why don't you grab a couple of airmen and come over and help me wax my car on Saturday morning" is the same thing as helping the old lady move her furniture.   The exception here would be if it was a CAP activity - as in XX Composite Squadron was going to help a old lady move.

The abuse of position comes into play because you don't know if the cadet really wanted to participate but did in order to stay on the Commander's good side (or the flip side - avoid getting on his bad boy list).   

[notaNCO forever]

    I don't see how helping and elderly person move can be construed as abuse of power. If the commander requested something that was for their personal gain, like having cadets do yard work for him, then their is abuse of power. From the sounds of it the commander probably realized that his elderly neighbor needed help moving, and he also knew his squadron had cadets willing to serve the community. If someone like a youth group pastor had kids from his church help a neighbor move I don't think it would be construed as abuse of power, and in my opinion it's pretty much the same situation. A leader seeing someone in need and is in a community service minded group, so he asked for their help.

[Eclipse]

That's the challenge for us in CAP (and similar organizations), by nature we're all inclined to help.  The organization, however, has rules put in place to protect all parties involved (including itself) as to how, and when, we're allowed to get involved.

9.9 times out of ten, this is a non-issue with a big "thank you" at the end (and maybe cookies).

Its the .1 amount of times that always cause the most headache and background noise, and leave people asking "what were you thinking".  This is why constant reinforcement of things like CPPT, ORM, Safety, and other "FUN! EXCITING!" topics is so important.

We all think we know where the line really is, and then see others walking near or over it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Short Field]

    I don't see how helping and elderly person move can be construed as abuse of power.

Here it is in less polite terms:  The CC calls some members of the squadron to come help someone move.  All the ones that show up are on the CC's good guy list and get promotions and awards.  All the ones who didn't show up - reguardless of reasons - fail to get promotions and awards.  Moral of story:  If the CC asks you to do something - do it  or pay the price. 

The abuse of power is the CC forcing some members to perform non-CAP functions or face retaliation in CAP.  The forcing to perform and the retaliation can be either real or preceived - and how do you know the cadet does not preceive it that way.    It does not matter if that was the Commander's intention: the question is how does the cadet preceive it.   This cadet apparently didn't have a problem with it.  Will all cadets feel the same way?

[EMT-83]

Wow, that's a stretch.

[BrandonKea]

Wow, that's a stretch.

+1

I'd quote Voltaire here but that would seemingly be wasteful.

[Eclipse]

Wow, that's a stretch.

Sadly, its not.

Welcome to CAP, may you never personally have to deal with the nonsense some of us do. 

[Thom]

Wow, that's a stretch.

Sadly, its not.

Welcome to CAP, may you never personally have to deal with the nonsense some of us do.

This is not just CAP...

At the last 3 companies I have worked at, all of them Fortune 500 (or 100 even), there was a VERY strict policy that you do NOT ask folks to do things off the company clock, unless you had a PRE-ESTABLISHED PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with them.  It's OK to ask Joe, who you've worked with and hung out after work over beers, for the last 18 months, to help you move a couch next weekend.  It is NOT OK to ask every guy in your department, ESPECIALLY those who directly report to you, to help you move your couch next weekend.  PERIOD.

This falls under the 'Abuse of Authority' umbrella.  (Note that most places distinguish between asking your DIRECT REPORTS/UNDERLINGS, and asking you PEERS.  Your Peers are presumed to not have any reason to fear you if they say no to your request.  This means that you can ask all the guys who work WITH you to help you move, but not the ones who work FOR you.  And, hey, if you want to ask your boss, go ahead...)

Quite often subordinate folks will feel that they MUST help, or they will be penalized.  And, then the Lawyers get involved and the handcart is rolling straight down the tracks to Heck...

And, FYI, this is actually most often seen in the context of 'Charitable' requests, in that Leaders/Managers feel much less restrained in 'requesting' the assistance of their underlings when the task is 'Worthy'.  Such as moving an injured elderly woman, assisting with a Charity Drive, helping out at a Charity Walk/Run, cleaning up a Youth Center, etc.  Since these are such 'Good' things, why would it possibly be bad for a Leader/Manager to leverage their direct reports to help out?  Except, it is, essentially, extortion, with the implied threat of punishment/lack of reward as the 'negative motivator'.  Most people have enough sense to know why it is wrong to ask your direct reports to come over and clean out your garage for you, but that internal censor fails them on 'Wholesome & Good' tasks.

Thom Hamilton

[jimmydeanno]

Spike, Eclipse,

I understand where you're coming from, my point was that there is only one situation in which this would be deemed improper by normal people.  That situation is one where the CC calls up and orders this cadet to take his free time and help this individual.  This was clearly not the case, as said by the person who stated that they were asked if they wanted to do it, and of their own free will VOLUNTEERED their time to a good cause.  Last I checked, we give people awards for doing that sort of thing.

If this were an official CAP activity, it would be just like them going and cleaning trash up on the side of the road, assisting with Habitat for Humanity, neighborhood cleanups, etc.  No mission number, no NOC approvals, inter-agency agreements, MOUs, etc.  Just another CAP activity.  If something happens; injuries, property damage, etc, that is why our organization has insurance.

Since this wasn't an official CAP activity, it still isn't inappropriate.  The squadron commander isn't using his cadets as a free labor pool.  It's being made out like the guy is running down to the Home Depot to snag a few day laborers.  He knows the cadets, knows their parents and ASKED if they'd like to help.  The request was made by the civilian, not the Sq CC. 

I don't see any abuse of power, liability for the organization that doesn't already exist in everything else we do, or any other negative to this action other than people thinking that this kid was taken advantage of because someone didn't buy him lunch.

Our organization does things.  Our members serve their communities outside of CAP in capacities that aren't related to CAP.  This is a perfect example.  We're allowed to do things together without it being a CAP activity.

I point my cadets to volunteer opportunities all the time; soup kitchens, nursing homes, community volunteer days, etc.  Does that mean that I'm abusing my "power" because I'm pointing to specific opportunities?  Does that mean that I'm somehow "commanding" those cadets to do those specific ones or else they'll be on my bad side?  No.

That's my point.

[Daniel]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

So I guess everyones wrong in the end

[Eclipse]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

Mess?

[Daniel]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

Mess?

Not physically.

But I guess my point is we all mess up

(Some more then others)

Daniel

[BrandonKea]

I don't think there's any mess for you to clean up. This was blown way out of proportion (which never happens here.)

You're fine, kudos to you in fact for helping out!

[Daniel]

I don't think there's any mess for you to clean up. This was blown way out of proportion (which never happens here.)

You're fine, kudos to you in fact for helping out!

Well what I'm now talking about is a bit different.

It only had something to do with this thread as I wanted to say no one can completely follow protocol.

[Eclipse]

I don't think anyone here would say you messed up, certainly not you personally, but were this one of my commanders I would certainly be discussing with them whether or not this was a good idea, and the potential exposure the corporation has in these cases.

That's why many of these areas are gray, to allow for commander discretion.

The fact that some of us here don't like the idea doesn't make it a "mess".

[Capt Rivera]

So after reading through all of this, i have a question for those who say the commander abused his "power."

It it an abuse of power to offer an opportunity for members to help a woman in need or is it an abuse of power to offer an opportunity for members to help a woman in need that the commander happens to know?

To me it should not matter if the commander somehow knows the woman or if some other organization contacted him and said "you guys seem to like serving the community, would you like to assist...?

I see no issue with a commander letting his squadron know of an opportunity to serve the community. Since more then a few members expressed interest, I believe the commander should have made it a squadron event. However, lack of a squadron event lends to logging of community service hours...

[Short Field]

It it an abuse of power to offer an opportunity for members to help a woman in need or is it an abuse of power to offer an opportunity for members to help a woman in need that the commander happens to know?

I really like that phrase, "offer an opportunity".

My mum woke me up from a dead sleep to tell me my commander wants my help to move someone

This was not a case of a commander letting his squadron know of an opportunity to serve the community - it was a case of the commander calling people to fall out and support the commander in doing something the commander wanted done.  How many only showed up because he was their Squadron Commander?   

[Spike]

We need to make a poll......."Abuse of Power", or "Not Abuse of Power". 

[Eclipse]

We need to make a poll......."Abuse of Power", or "Not Abuse of Power".

No, we don't.