Scanner as an Interim position

[RiverAux]

An newly updated question on the knowledgebase asks why there isn't a badge for the mission scanner position and here is part of the answer:

There is no Mission Scanner aviation badge because the scanner position is an interim step to mission observer.

While many scanners do go on to become Observers, it isn't required nor is it laid out anywhere that I've seen that it is expected, so I think that part of the answer is bogus.  Now, there are probably other legit reasons for not having a Scanner badge, but if they really intend for Scanner not to be a position in its own right they should just abolish it and make it part of the Observer trainnee requirements. 

[Hawk200]

An newly updated question on the knowledgebase asks why there isn't a badge for the mission scanner position and here is part of the answer:

There is no Mission Scanner aviation badge because the scanner position is an interim step to mission observer.

While many scanners do go on to become Observers, it isn't required nor is it laid out anywhere that I've seen that it is expected, so I think that part of the answer is bogus.  Now, there are probably other legit reasons for not having a Scanner badge, but if they really intend for Scanner not to be a position in its own right they should just abolish it and make it part of the Observer trainnee requirements.

OK, so the answer's bogus. Many people never get observer for the simple fact that they just don't want to. What's wrong with that?

[SarDragon]

Well, qualification as a Scanner is a pre-req for Mission Observer, but, as you say, follow-on training isn't a requirement. Having two MOs in the A/C offers a slight advantage for some taskings, but a competent Scanner can certainly accomplish a lot. At my unit, we actively encourage the progression, particularly since most of our members are pilots.

As for a badge, how many Scanners don't go on to become Observers? Would having the badge available be cost effective for the members and CAP as a whole? how many would actually get sold? What's your thought for what it should look like?

[RiverAux]

I wasn't saying that Scanners should have a badge.  I was disagreeing with the statement that Scanner is nothing more than an interim step to observer.

Personally, I think we push too many people to become Observers.  We all know that it is very difficult for non-pilot Observers to get enough right-seat time to stay really qualified to perform the Observer function and having a bunch of folks who are only occassional Observers dilutes the overall quality of the Observer pool and can make it hard for the serious Observers to maintain their skills. 

[Eclipse]

I'm with Riveraux here.  Scanner is an end for many members and an important part of a proper aircrew.

They normally do the heavy lifting on photo and SDIS missions.

Any inference that Mission Scanner is an interim rating is simply incorrect and should be corrected.

[lordmonar]

River.....why are you always trying to stir up trouble?

A KB answere of why MS's don't have a badge is not NHQ's attempt to dis anyone.

Let it go.

[Eclipse]

There is that, too.

You've been digging pretty deep lately into stuff asked and answered a bunch of times.

With all the September kids logging into here lately, they will think this is something "new".

[Pylon]

Obviously this isn't the case.  MS can be a terminal qualification.  Just because MP or MO are pre-requisites to AOBD, doesn't mean that MP's or MO's are automatically expected to continue to progress on to AOBD.  GTMs aren't necessarily expected to follow on to GTL, either.  It's perfectly acceptable to qualify as GTM3 and contribute from that level indefinitely.  So don't read into it.

As was mentioned above, the Knowledgebase is more often the opinion of NHQ staff members which at times does not actually reflect reality, practice, regulation or intent of Civil Air Patrol as an organization.

[N Harmon]

I think Civil Air Patrol should create a generic aircrew badge which would cover the other air specialties that current do not have a badge (scanner, archer operator, archer track operator, and air radiological monitor). This would be consistent with the real Air Force. But until that happens, people will continue to assume that a mission scanner is "pre-Observer" instead of being a specialty qualification requiring its own skills to master.

[RiverAux]

There is that, too.

You've been digging pretty deep lately into stuff asked and answered a bunch of times.

With all the September kids logging into here lately, they will think this is something "new".

Actually I check the knowledgebase every month or so to see if anything interesting has come up and this issue was updated there very recently, so I didn't "dig" anything up.  And if you think the answers that NHQ puts in the KB don't matter, you might want to think about the fact that these are the same folks that actually write our regulations and their interpretations are those that end up in the regs eventually.

[Hawk200]

...you might want to think about the fact that these are the same folks that actually write our regulations and their interpretations are those that end up in the regs eventually.

That's actually a good point. There's a number of things that are a matter of opinion. I believe a lot of people here have heard that we still don't have cloth nametags for the flightsuit because someone on National staff doesn't care for them.

[RiverAux]

They may not be the actual decision makers, but the people that write the rules have a whole lot of influence in what actually goes into them and a lot of influence in what rules are a priority to change as well. I've got some experience along these lines in my real life. 

[ZigZag911]

The "generic aircrew badge" for AC members other than MP or MO is a good suggestion.

I must admit I've always considered scanner as a 'stepping stone' toward observer, but of course that is not how it's written anywhere.

[Hawk200]

The "generic aircrew badge" for AC members other than MP or MO is a good suggestion.

I always thought so. Easy way to do it, too. Take the CAP eagle and stick it in the middle of a set of the basic CAP wing desing. Similar concept to how both the Army and the Air Force treat other than specific wings.

I must admit I've always considered scanner as a 'stepping stone' toward observer, but of course that is not how it's written anywhere.

I think that it's considered a stepping stone is because it's required to get to observer. If we treated it as a qualification of it's own, I think it would be be better regarded.

May not hurt to have a few qualifications in the bird with some common instruction to them. An aircrew course, as such. Follow up with whatever you want to do. I think commo and photographer could be considered qualifications in their own right.

[Trung Si Ma]

The "generic aircrew badge" for AC members other than MP or MO is a good suggestion.

I always thought so. Easy way to do it, too. Take the CAP eagle and stick it in the middle of a set of the basic CAP wing desing. Similar concept to how both the Army and the Air Force treat other than specific wings.

I'd like to see a mission aircrew badge with the following:

Basic Badge - Scanner / Archer op / photographer / fill in the blank
Senior Badge - MO or MP
Master Badge - MO and MP

To make it more distinctive and to show that this is a CAP only badge, go back to the traditional drooped wings

[N Harmon]

I'd like to see a mission aircrew badge with the following:

Basic Badge - Scanner / Archer op / photographer / fill in the blank
Senior Badge - MO or MP
Master Badge - MO and MP

To make it more distinctive and to show that this is a CAP only badge, go back to the traditional drooped wings

One of the complaints that I have about the Ground Team badge is that it rewards 101 qualifications rather than real mastery of ground team skills. You can theoretically rate a master ground team badge and have only been on a total of four ground sorties your whole life. I'm not sure aircrews really want to go down that road with their badges.

Here is a list of aviation badges in the real Air Force:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force#Aviation

Their badges are broken up by specific aviation related jobs, with the aircrew badge being a sort of "catch all". Seniority with each badge is determined by hours and/or years of service (I'm not sure exactly how that works, but it is experience-based).

I think there is some wisdom in the way in which the real Air Force does their badges, and we would be wise to look at them for clues on how we should do ours.

[RiverAux]

We already have gone down that road with the observer and pilot badges...

[Trung Si Ma]

We already have gone down that road with the observer and pilot badges...

And sommething has changed?

[N Harmon]

We already have gone down that road with the observer and pilot badges...

How so?

[RiverAux]

And sommething has changed?

No.  Didn't say it had.