Green Flare Searches

[rescue520]

Hey all,
I have been tasked in creating a training program for the use of a flare / very pistol for green flares searches and target illumination.
I was just wondering if anyone has any training information or any information in relation to flare pistols, green flare searches or target illuminations?
These will be fired from a fixed wing aircraft
Thanks in advanced
Rescue520

[A.Member]

These will be fired from a fixed wing aircraft

Not from a CAP aircraft. 

It's extremely questionable (read:  highly unlikely) as to whether FARs will even allow for this.  Although I can't site a specific FAR off hand - I know 91.15 addresses dropping objects.  Either way, I certainly wouldn't allow it in my airplane. 

Who asked you to do this?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Use of Very pistols is very (no pun intended) dangerous.  Firing them from the ground as a distress signal may be OK, but one must consider the fire danger.  Firing them from the air is prohibited for the following reasons:

1.  Accidental discharge inside the aircraft is a possibility, since a Very pistol does not have the positive safety features of other types of pistols.

2.  Fire danger from an aerial discharge is extreme and unpredictable... would you want one falling on your house?

3.  No CAP aircraft is equipped with the flare launch ports of World War II military aircraft, which used flares for communication in lieu of radio transmissions, (which were subject to enemy intercept).

This is one of those dumb ideas that pop up every so often.

[Flying Pig]

These will be fired from a fixed wing aircraft    No they wont

I think your local FSDO might have the information your looking for!

Please don't do this.  Its going to come down bad for the rest of us.  If the FAA finds out CAP (you) are firing flare guns from low flying aircraft to mark targets they are going to think we all do it....holy cow.  Not to mention your local fire department or US Forest Service may want to speak with you. Im curious who tasked you to do this?

In my air unit at work, if we need to "mark" a location.  We hit the "MARK" button on the GPS and radio it out.  Or, we drop smoke from a hovering helicopter on to the target.
Flare guns are meant to be fired up so they burn out before hitting the ground.  Not to be fired INTO the ground.  Last thing I would want to do is shoot it towards a target, ie. crashed airplane or victim and then start a fire.

I should ask though......were you tasked to do this for CAP or are you an outside agency looking to see if we can assist you with your training? Either way, sorry, cant help you.

[Major Lord]

To paraphrase and slightly misquote the great philosopher Smokey the Bear " Remember, only you can prevent forests....."

I have 25 and 37 mm Flare guns, and I am pretty confident that you could set fire to a snow bank with one! I wonder if the original poster is an agent provocateur......

Major Lord

[rescue520]

Ok guys, i should have included a little bit of more information,
Please let me know if in not welcome on this forum, But i am a mission co-ordinator on Australias Dedicated Fixed winged aircraft. I have posted this question here as i am trying to see what other countrys / organisations do in relation to this. This was the only airborne search and rescue forum i could find online. (please let me know if you know of any others). We do have permission from our regulator to do this, and we have been successfully trialing it for a number of months now. As im not fully aware of where CAP operates but these flares will only be fired over water. Lakes/ocean. We have our own proceduers on how to do this SAFELY but i was just trying to get information for other organisations on if they do it, how they do it, what success they have had, and how they train their members. Our procedures if followed correctly will not allow an activation of a flare in the cabin by a crew member. Of course this is a very dangerous thing to be doing but our procedures will minimise the risk to the aircraft and the crew.
Below is the information that our National search and rescue manual has in relation to green flares.
5.6 Flare Searches
General
* Military aircraft may be capable of conducting a Flare Search at night. The
procedure is appropriate to nighttime operations when it is known that survivors are
equipped with distress signal flares. The military authority concerned will decide the
practicality of such a search.
* The search is flown at 5000 FT or below the cloud base if lower. The crew fires a
green flare every 3-5 minutes after entering the search area and at each turning
point of the search pattern.
* The frequency with which flares are fired from the aircraft should ensure that
survivors could sight at least two successive flares. The survivors are expected to
respond to green flares by firing their own red flares. The crew will acknowledge the
sighting of the distress flares by firing a succession of green flares and switching on
the aircraft's landing lights.
*The spacing between adjacent tracks (S) will depend upon visibility. The quality of
pyrotechnics available to survivors is usually limited and survivors are unlikely to fire
flares until sighting the lights of or flares from a search aircraft. For this reason,
sweep width for a flare search should be based on the range at which survivors may
see the search unit. On entering a search area, search units may turn on all
possible lights and from time to time display search lights or landing lights to
facilitate sighting of the search unit by survivors. However, night vision of on-board
observers needs to be taken into account.
For those interested in the aircraft we operate they can visit the website. www.aerorescue.com.au
Rescue

[SJFedor]

^----- That's kinda cool actually....

Of course you're welcome!

However, I've never heard of us using this technique, as we do very limited, if any, overwater work, and even less for search and rescue purposes. The US Coast Guard handles almost all maritime search and rescue activities in the US.

I'm curious now, what type of aircraft are you using and how is it you launch the flares?

[Gunner C]

Double Nomex for everyone!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, don't we feel salty!

We assumed you were an American Civil Air Patrol member, and all of us had a visual image of an observer with a flare pistol firing out of the pop-open window of a Cessna 172.  You know, right out of the cabin and right under the fuel tank.

In the US we rarely search over water (that's the Coast Guard's job) and even more rarely run a visual search at night.  Our night operations are searches for ELT signals, toward which an aircrew would direct a ground search team.

So I'm sorry if it appeared that I was "Talking down" to you.

G'Day!   

[A.Member]

Ok guys, i should have included a little bit of more information,
Please let me know if in not welcome on this forum...

You're absolutely welcome here.  It's always interesting to hear other perspectives.  Obviously, the vast majority of our discussions are focused around the Civil Air Patrol in the United States but please feel free to join in as you see fit.

Below is the information that our National search and rescue manual has in relation to green flares.
5.6 Flare Searches
General
* Military aircraft may be capable of conducting a Flare Search at night. The
procedure is appropriate to nighttime operations when it is known that survivors are
equipped with distress signal flares. The military authority concerned will decide the
practicality of such a search.
* The search is flown at 5000 FT or below the cloud base if lower. The crew fires a
green flare every 3-5 minutes after entering the search area and at each turning
point of the search pattern.
* The frequency with which flares are fired from the aircraft should ensure that
survivors could sight at least two successive flares. The survivors are expected to
respond to green flares by firing their own red flares. The crew will acknowledge the
sighting of the distress flares by firing a succession of green flares and switching on
the aircraft's landing lights.
*The spacing between adjacent tracks (S) will depend upon visibility. The quality of
pyrotechnics available to survivors is usually limited and survivors are unlikely to fire
flares until sighting the lights of or flares from a search aircraft. For this reason,
sweep width for a flare search should be based on the range at which survivors may
see the search unit. On entering a search area, search units may turn on all
possible lights and from time to time display search lights or landing lights to
facilitate sighting of the search unit by survivors. However, night vision of on-board
observers needs to be taken into account.
For those interested in the aircraft we operate they can visit the website. www.aerorescue.com.au
Rescue

Interesting.  I dig your airplanes!     

However, I'm not sure I truly understand the need for firing the green flare.  Do "survivors" know that they are to respond with red flares?   What is the purpose behind this exchange?   To me, it still seems the risk of firing one from inside an aircraft would outweigh any potential benefit.  How is the flare deployed from the Dornier?  Out a side door on a low speed pass?  I'm curious because that's a pretty good sized aircraft, especially when compared to the Cessna 172/182s that we typically fly.

As mentioned in an earlier post, it is our practice to over fly the target and mark the location using GPS.  These detailed coordinates can then be radioed to ground teams (or a maritime crew) for direct guidance to the target.  This approach works regardless of time (day or night) or terrain (mountains, water, etc.).  In addition, the marker (coordinates) remain fixed (as opposed to any drift, etc. that potentially could be encountered with flares).

[Flying Pig]

Definitely welcome.  I assumed you were a CAP member here in the US.  So I think to all of us it was..."Uhhhh.....Why are you asking this you should know?"  We here all familiar with the US Federal Aviation Regulations.  Here in the US we have a reg almost completely prohibiting dropping, not to mention "firing" something from an airplane.  Are you guys volunteers or paid?

Well, it makes more sense now.  Your not crazy like we all thought! :clap:

[c172drv]

rescue520,
     As you can see we are a passionate bunch up here.  The type of thing that you are doing is more likely best addressed by either the US Coast Guard or the US Air Force.  The USAF use to do this and probably still does with its A-10's.  They utilized it more for target aquisition but the principle is the same.  Big issues I would see is to find a good place for mounting the flares. 

     I would expect that a standard flare box that they mount on military aircraft would be the best.  I've seen mountings on the sides of Dash 8's that were more deffensive but it should prove effective for your operations since it is a similar size and desgined aircraft.  I expect the the fairings around the main gear would prove to be a good location for pointing down and staying outside the pressure vessle.

    Areas that I know are problems especially for over water flying with flares is target fixation.  Circling flares in the dark really kills peoples ability to determine height.  Pilots have been known to circle down at the same relative height to the parachute flare and fly that position all the way into the ground.  You should have the advantage of the radar altimeter in the DO328 but I don't know how that will work over water since all my flying is mostly over land with the occational river short of the runway.

[PHall]

U.S. Air Force aircraft don't even have a flare port or much less carry the pistol.
But they do still carry the Aldis Lamps with Red and Green filters.

[DC]

U.S. Air Force aircraft don't even have a flare port or much less carry the pistol.
But they do still carry the Aldis Lamps with Red and Green filters.

A-10s (and possibly some other airframes) can carry illumination flares mounted on the outside that can be fired by the pilot. They use them to illuminate targets at night for strafing runs with the 30mm. 

[PHall]

U.S. Air Force aircraft don't even have a flare port or much less carry the pistol.
But they do still carry the Aldis Lamps with Red and Green filters.

A-10s (and possibly some other airframes) can carry illumination flares mounted on the outside that can be fired by the pilot. They use them to illuminate targets at night for strafing runs with the 30mm. 

Yeah, they're in a pod mounted on one of the weapon stations.

There are also the IR missile defense flares that are carried in magazines that are mounted in the wings.
But you don't use them for illumination.

Plus why would you make your NVG's useless by launching an illumination flare?

[DC]

U.S. Air Force aircraft don't even have a flare port or much less carry the pistol.
But they do still carry the Aldis Lamps with Red and Green filters.

A-10s (and possibly some other airframes) can carry illumination flares mounted on the outside that can be fired by the pilot. They use them to illuminate targets at night for strafing runs with the 30mm. 

Yeah, they're in a pod mounted on one of the weapon stations.

There are also the IR missile defense flares that are carried in magazines that are mounted in the wings.
But you don't use them for illumination.

Plus why would you make your NVG's useless by launching an illumination flare?

Intimidation maybe? I dunno, I'm sure there is a valid reason...

[rescue520]

G'day all

SJFEDOR: We fly a Dornier 328 Turbo Prop, The aircraft have had a rear cargo door modification which opens inwards. And we simply just fire the very pistol out the door.

haha ahh yes i see the picture you all had in your head now. It would look very interesting in a 172, Probably only try it once.

A.Member: I think their theory behind the green flare searchs it that it will allow us to cover a greater search area, but only when we are looking/searching for a specific vessels. I believe this would only be used for the missing professional fisherman which we seem to get all too often, and professional sailors who may have had the training to fire a red flare back. This is still in our trial stage and have yet to use it for real, We should be going live with this procedure in the next few weeks so i will let you know how it goes for real.
I will try and get some photos for you all of our inflight opening door. But for the search we will have the dropmaster sitting at the door, firing the flares. (the door make for a much better viewing/searching window)
I see yeah, we generally use the mark on the FMS/GPS systems, But we have found when we have support vessels, expecially for a Man overboard search that a 15min white marked dispatched from the aircraft is much better for them to locate debris / people in the water.

Flying Pig: We are all paid crew, We have 2 pilots and 2 observers and one mission co-ordinator on board for every sortie.

C172DRV: The flares that we will be using will be hand fired from the very pistol.  Yeah we do have a Radalt and it works beautifuly over water, and generally if we are doing prolonged target illumination the orbit would be programmed into the FMS and the aeroplane will fly it for us.

DC: mmm unfortunalty we dont have a 30mm, sometimes would come in handy for some taskings we have done.

PHall: The use of the illumiation flare will be for the survivors to see the items whe have dispatched to them, For surface vessels assisting or recovering, For helicopter operations for the some of the smaller guys who dont carry NVG we can light up the area for them. For the crew on board most of the target investigation will be either NVG or FLIR.

Thanks for all your warm welcomes. If you guys would like to know anymore about what we do or anything let me know and i can post more info, some photos etc.

Thanks all
Rescue

[SJFedor]

I'm not gonna lie. I want your airplane. 

[Flying Pig]

I loved the 2 months I spent in Brisbane when I was in the Marines.  Ill tell you what.  I will allow your organization to invite me over on an exchange program!

[rescue520]

yeah the plane is pretty great, They have modified it pretty well to act as a SAR platform.
The job is going to get more interesting for us in the next few months as the large door mod has only just been completed. We will be getting larger stores for us to dispatch and a lot more stored options for us.

Ahh yeah, im based in Cairns. Brissy has a good base down there.

I'd love to do an exchange sometime, not sure what the company would say but i think it would be great to see what other organisations do.

So what types of aircraft do you all fly/ use for sar?