Epaulets...whats the truth?

[biomed441]

So here I am, stiring up what is likely going to be another chastised thread. God forbid we talk about epaulets again.   Honestly I dont like the idea myself but I can't find an answer anywhere on this forum so I'll ask the question.

Who are the grey epaulets without grade for?  I am currently a SM, and when I asked my commander about them, he said they are not for SM without grade (That wonderful 6 month period), only for NCO's.  I read somewhere else in one of the threads that also confimred that they are not for SM without grade.

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

So, whats the real truth behind this? I'm in a way a bit of a uniform nazi as some would call it. Don't worry though I dont plan on bashing those who wear the other uniforms. I dont care what uniform someone wears as long as its worn properly. Which is why this issue bothers me. Something about being in a non reg uniform that just makes me go bleh. 

If someone can point out where it defines what the epaulets without grade are for, that would be awsome.

[Hawk200]

Those eps were designed to have metal NCO rank pinned on. Vanguard allegedly has them available embroidered, but many have said that it takes a while.

It's a bit of a flip compared to the Air Force. The Air Force disallowed the wear of epaulets on blue shirts a couple (few? several?) years ago.

[BrandonKea]

At least we don't have the Maroon Epaulets anymore...

As a SMWOG (Senior Member without Grade), you should wear the CAP Lapel insignia on both sides of your collar, much like a Cadet wears their grade insignia. (Ref. CAPM-39-1 Fig. 2-5 Note 1)

[BrandonKea]

Also, there's no mention of NCO's wearing any epaulets in 39-1 that I could find...

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_390_408_2035_2037&sort=20a&page=2

Those seem to serve no purpose now...

[DC]

Yep, the blank gray slides were intended for NCOs. The 'grade insignia' for a SMWOG is the same as that of a C/AB, nothing on the epaulets and CAP cutouts on the collar. See Note 1 on Figure 2-5, Page 20, CAPM 39-1. The person who barred you from inspecting the cadets was ignorant of the regulations, and should not have done so.

EDIT: Never mind, BrandonKea beat me to it...

[BrandonKea]

EDIT: Never mind, BrandonKea beat me to it...

Sorry, it's REALLLY slow at work.

[Eclipse]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

[notaNCO forever]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

I lost a color guard comp because the people inspecting didn't know the uniform regulations; apparently it's to much work for some people to read the 39-1.

[DC]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

I lost a color guard comp because the people inspecting didn't know the uniform regulations; apparently it's to much work for some people to read the 39-1.

I don't know what your wing is like, but I'd be willing to be there is some way to appeal results, you might look into it if you were wrongly penalized.

[vento]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You are not out of uniform if you wear the collar cutouts. According to CAPM 39-1, page 18.

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior
member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray
epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar.

And if you are wearing the white aviator shirt with the grey slack combination, then no epaulets and no cutouts.

[Gunner C]

This is what we get with so many uniform combinations, ever-changing regulations and interim letters, and not much training for SMs.

[JoeTomasone]

...And very few people who read 39-1 to begin with.

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

[Spike]

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

I would say there are maybe 3 pages Cadets need to concern themselves with in 39-1, and half of those pages are pictures!

[JoeTomasone]

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

I would say there are maybe 3 pages Cadets need to concern themselves with in 39-1, and half of those pages are pictures!

Exactly.   Read the section on Blues and the section on BDUs and 99.9% of cadets are DONE.

[Lt Oliv]

While we're on the topic I have a great Epaulet question for you folks...

Recently I showed up as my normal fuzzy (but well trimmed) self in an aviator shirt with epaulets and a pair of gray slacks.  I was told that if you do not meet AF Grooming standards, you cannot wear ANY grade insignia, to include epaulets on the Aviator style shirt. 

Instead, I was directed to wear no epaulets and obtain a nametag that contains my grade.

Now.....39-1 says nothing about not being able to wear epaulets on the aviator shirt if you have a beard (goatee), and I see no authorized nametag for that uniform that would permit you to include your grade on it. 

Normally I'd just wear the polo shirt, but I'd like to attend SLS in the near future, and you are only authorized to attend in the AF, Corporate or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. 

Group Commander affirmed the whole "beard = no epaulets" sentiment, but I'm not finding it in the regs anywhere. 

Thoughts?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Your Group CC is incorrect. There is no modification of the gray / whites for grooming standards. Any senior can where that uniform with their grade.

[Lt Oliv]

Well isn't that just plain awkward?

I've noticed a few variations of the whites and grays that I cannot find in 39-1 or any of the change letters.  One is the long sleeve aviator shirt, gray pants and a blue tie.  It is mentioned in the Level 1 training, but I can't find that anywhere either.  Am I missing just a whole block of instructions somewhere?

[ßτε]

Well isn't that just plain awkward?

I've noticed a few variations of the whites and grays that I cannot find in 39-1 or any of the change letters.  One is the long sleeve aviator shirt, gray pants and a blue tie.  It is mentioned in the Level 1 training, but I can't find that anywhere either.  Am I missing just a whole block of instructions somewhere?

CAPM 39-1 Page 75

[Rotorhead]

While we're on the topic I have a great Epaulet question for you folks...

Recently I showed up as my normal fuzzy (but well trimmed) self in an aviator shirt with epaulets and a pair of gray slacks.  I was told that if you do not meet AF Grooming standards, you cannot wear ANY grade insignia, to include epaulets on the Aviator style shirt. 

Instead, I was directed to wear no epaulets and obtain a nametag that contains my grade.

Now.....39-1 says nothing about not being able to wear epaulets on the aviator shirt if you have a beard (goatee), and I see no authorized nametag for that uniform that would permit you to include your grade on it. 

Normally I'd just wear the polo shirt, but I'd like to attend SLS in the near future, and you are only authorized to attend in the AF, Corporate or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. 

Group Commander affirmed the whole "beard = no epaulets" sentiment, but I'm not finding it in the regs anywhere. 

Thoughts?

Yes, you can't find it because it doesn't exist.

It really annoys me when people make up their own regs. We have more than enough real ones already.

White and grey with ep sleeves is allowed for fat and/or fuzzy

White and blue with USAF ep sleeves is allowed for fat but not fuzzy.

[JoeTomasone]

Your Group CC is incorrect. There is no modification of the gray / whites for grooming standards. Any senior can where that uniform with their grade.

Actually, the grade is REQUIRED.

Deviations from 39-1 are not authorized; so if it's not in 39-1, authorized BY 39-1 (such as items the Wing/CC can authorize) or in an ICL, you cannot do it.

[Rotorhead]

This is what we get with so many uniform combinations, ever-changing regulations and interim letters, and not much training for SMs.

There is much better guidance for NOAA (http://www.corpscpc.noaa.gov/perservices/pdf/NC_ODU_How_to_wear.pdf) and USCG Aux (http://a054.uscgaux.info/News%20and%20Information/Document%20Archives/2007%20Raleigh%20District%20Conference/Uniform%20-%20ODU.pdf).

These PowerPoints assume the members know nothing. Since that's what we see in a lot of new SMs, why can't NHQ be this specific?

[Eclipse]

These PowerPoints assume the members know nothing. Since that's what we see in a lot of new SMs, why can't NHQ be this specific?

They are, but also depend on the Unit CC's to have or establish a baseline level of knowledge and actually enforce our regs.

[Lt Oliv]

These PowerPoints assume the members know nothing. Since that's what we see in a lot of new SMs, why can't NHQ be this specific?

They are, but also depend on the Unit CC's to have or establish a baseline level of knowledge and actually enforce our regs.

This is very true.  However, I can see how it would be difficult to track every single change to the 39-1.  After reading the regulation, you then have to sort through a series of Change Letters, since the 39-1 does not mention the Corporate Uniform among other changes.

Pile on the ambiguities that exist throughout CAP Regs and couple that with additional command responsibility, and I'd say you have a recipe for misinterpretation. 

I think the responsibility lies with NHQ AND with local Commanders.

[LtCol057]

Going back to Ollie's question, the nametag with the grade insignia is for use on the blazer.  At one time, it could be worn on a white shirt without epaulets, but IIRC, that combination was recently retired with the most current M39-1 (Mar 05).

I'm glad I looked it up, because I just realized that the regimental tie is no longer authorized for the white/gray uniform, just the blazer combo. 

[Eclipse]

I guess the definition of "recent" is subjective - I don't consider something that happened 4+ years ago "recent", and that's just the publish date.

The nameplate and regimental tie changes happened in the very early '00's.

[LtCol057]

Considering that I've found some forms and regs that were published in the early 70's that are still in use, I consider 4 years ago "recent".

[Lt Oliv]

Going back to Ollie's question, the nametag with the grade insignia is for use on the blazer.  At one time, it could be worn on a white shirt without epaulets, but IIRC, that combination was recently retired with the most current M39-1 (Mar 05).

I'm glad I looked it up, because I just realized that the regimental tie is no longer authorized for the white/gray uniform, just the blazer combo.

Excellent, so it once was authorized and now is not.  That is a lot different from someone "making up their own reg."  And it only mentions the elimination of the blazer nametag with the aviator shirt in the summary.  I'm sure many people simply go right to the section they are concerned with and glance right over it (like I've been doing). 

A very confusing read, especially compared to military uniform regulations.  All we can do is our best with what we have.

[PHall]

A very confusing read, especially compared to military uniform regulations.  All we can do is our best with what we have.

AFI 36-2903 isn't exactly crystal clear either, or even up to date.
There is no mention of the ABU in the reg currently. You have to check the IMC's and various messages to get current info.

Gee, just like CAP!

[DBlair]

I'm confused as to why a SMWOG would not wear the grey shoulder marks/epaulets without grade? Like a C/AB, they wear 'CAP' as their grade, cloth 'CAP' on BDUs which distinguishes them from Cadets, and so wouldn't the shoulder marks/epaulets without grade be suited for SMWOG as the grey epaulets signify SM and the insignia being just 'CAP' would signify being SMWOG. Please explain why a SMWOG cannot wear these 'blank' SM epaulets?

[Eclipse]

Please explain why a SMWOG cannot wear these 'blank' SM epaulets?

Because 39-1 says to wear the cutout on the collar, why does anyone need more "explanation" than that?

However, if you need more that that, it also looks ridiculous.

[DC]

I'm confused as to why a SMWOG would not wear the grey shoulder marks/epaulets without grade? Like a C/AB, they wear 'CAP' as their grade, cloth 'CAP' on BDUs which distinguishes them from Cadets, and so wouldn't the shoulder marks/epaulets without grade be suited for SMWOG as the grey epaulets signify SM and the insignia being just 'CAP' would signify being SMWOG. Please explain why a SMWOG cannot wear these 'blank' SM epaulets?

Because 39-1 says so. SMWOG still have gray nametapes to distinguish them from cadets, who wear blue ones.

[DBlair]

If the 39-1 specifically says this about blues, than I guess I was wrong. That being said, I think the blank epaulets are a much better idea for SMWOG than the cutouts worn by C/AB. Forgive my lack of knowledge regarding SMWOG specifics as I never had to deal with that issue, but it appears there are a lot of areas needing to be clarified as it often seems to be an area of confusion.

[DC]

If the 39-1 specifically says this about blues, than I guess I was wrong. That being said, I think the blank epaulets are a much better idea for SMWOG than the cutouts worn by C/AB. Forgive my lack of knowledge regarding SMWOG specifics as I never had to deal with that issue, but it appears there are a lot of areas needing to be clarified as it often seems to be an area of confusion.

Epaulets are used to indicate the grade of the person wearing them, since by definition Senior Members Without Grade have no grade, a uniform item to identify their grade is absolutely pointless, as they don't have one to identify. CAP cutouts on the collar are just as good of an indicator as anything, and like I pointed out, they have a gray nameplate to separate them from the cadets.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

[biomed441]

A bit of an update on the situation.  The competition contined as scheduled and some AF personnel with CAP experience conducted the inspections. The cadets all looked amazing btw, so if you are a member of the SWR, you can be certain the cadets represented our region very very well.

As for me, I continued to wear my uniform according to what 39-1 said. Like I said before, I'm what some call a "uniform nazi" and actually have read the entire 39-1 as well as the memorandums that accompany it. So I hope some of those previous comments about people not reading the 39-1 were not directed at me.

Anyways, that being said, I ask questions when I myself get questioned on my uniform. And when the one that questions me is a Major, eh I have to wonder if maybe I overlooked something. 

Also I'll have to agree that maybe the SMWOG grade should be wearing the grey epaulets, mainly because I've been confused for being a cadet several times in the last few months alone. I'm 21 so am pretty close to their age group.  Sadly there are some that just dont seem to take notice of the grey nametag and silver on the flight cap.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Please explain why a SMWOG cannot wear these 'blank' SM epaulets?

Because 39-1 says to wear the cutout on the collar, why does anyone need more "explanation" than that?

However, if you need more that that, it also looks ridiculous.

Well... The ridiculous appearance of a uniform item does not mean that it is NOT required under 39-1.  Witness:  The refusal of the NB to authorize dark blue nametapes for the Blue BDU.  The result is that brand-new uniforms look like you put old, faded patches on them.

[BillB]

If you are a SMWOG, why are you wearing a flight cap with silver braid?

[Eclipse]

Please explain why a SMWOG cannot wear these 'blank' SM epaulets?

Because 39-1 says to wear the cutout on the collar, why does anyone need more "explanation" than that?

However, if you need more that that, it also looks ridiculous.

Well... The ridiculous appearance of a uniform item does not mean that it is NOT required under 39-1.  Witness:  The refusal of the NB to authorize dark blue nametapes for the Blue BDU.  The result is that brand-new uniforms look like you put old, faded patches on them.

Sadly, you're more than correct.

I've actually taken to carrying pages from 39-1 as "reinforcement", though generally I don't need any.
You guys catch me once in a while, but generally the people in my AOR are hard-pressed to find something I'm not up on.

One situation, for example, was the first time I wore the senior semi-formal (blazer, dress shirt, crest w/ no nametag and one medal).  It was probably the first time in my wing anyone had worn it - I certainly got asked about it several times.

I just keep the page folded in the inside pocket for giggles.

[biomed441]

If you are a SMWOG, why are you wearing a flight cap with silver braid?

Because 39-1 says so.  Actually i believe it says blue and silver braid. I made a poor assumption that everyone knew what I meant when I said silver braid. I'm not refereing to the full silver braid such as what general officers wear.

39-1 ref pg 41 note 2

[MIKE]

^ Thats not what it says for SMs without grade.

... Cap has dark-blue colored edge braid for cadets, senior member NCOs, Airmen and senior members without grade; ...

[biomed441]

^ Ah I see. Referenced the wrong thing. Thanks for pointing that out.  Goes to show that even people who have read the 39-1 can still overlook things. Anyways i'll be sure to fix that whenever I get the chance.   

[Eclipse]

Those are two reasons I discourage new members from going to service dress before 2d Lt - holes in your collar (yeah, I know self-healing shirts), and having to buy a second service cap in 6 months.

[biomed441]

Thats not a bad Idea when your SM's can afford the other uniforms. I'm an unemployed college student. I can't even afford a polo from vanguard, let alone anything else. ROTC was kind enough to let me hang onto my blues and BDU's so thats what I have to work with.   

[Eclipse]

The majority of new members, especially seniors, come to the table with nothing, so despite the fact that 39-1 mandates they buy and wear the aviator whites as their basic uniform, I generally encourage new members to get a golf shirt to wear with existing pants and shoes until they know if they like CAP.

$17-35 depending on what they buy.

[biomed441]

In my personal case, its much cheaper to just get a new flight cap to wear for a few more months.  Still wont help my, getting confused with being a cadet issue though.  But, I guess I can survive that for a little while. Still I like your idea a lot Eclipse about not having new SM's using the service uniform.

All the more reason that SMWOG should be wearing plain grey epaulets, despite how ugly it might be to some. 

[MIKE]

Talk about confusing... Having a username such as Captainbob, and being a no grade s'member.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Those are two reasons I discourage new members from going to service dress before 2d Lt - holes in your collar (yeah, I know self-healing shirts), and having to buy a second service cap in 6 months.

THAT, in my humble opinion, is the definitive answer.  The Golf Shirt works on quite a few levels for new members.

[biomed441]

Talk about confusing... Having a username such as Captainbob, and being a no grade s'member.

Haha, I was wondering if someone was going to comment about that.  Its actually a nick-name that I was given a long time ago. Actually back as a cadet. And no I was never a cadet captain either.  Someone just thought it had a strange but fun ring to it, and its stuck ever since.  Although, if I ever become a Major, I may just have to change it.

[BrandonKea]

...Although, if I ever become a Major, I may just have to change it.

Ohhh, yeah THEN change it... 

[CadetProgramGuy]

Your Group CC is incorrect. There is no modification of the gray / whites for grooming standards. Any senior can where that uniform with their grade.

Actually, the grade is REQUIRED.

Deviations from 39-1 are not authorized; so if it's not in 39-1, authorized BY 39-1 (such as items the Wing/CC can authorize) or in an ICL, you cannot do it.

Lets go deeper than that......If you were 'forced' to remove your grade, then you were in an incomplete uniform, also not authorized by the regs.  If you were instructed to remove grade, then you should have been instructed to remove all of the other bling as well.

[Lt Oliv]

I was instructed to remove grade for that particular event and obtain a name tag with my grade on it to wear with the aviator shirt, sans epaulets, if I refuse to shave the beard. 

I did what I was told, and have been making marks in the 39-1 so I have reference points to bring up with my Chain of Command.  My hope is that our Group Commander will look at the summary of changes to the 39-1 and say "Looks like they changed the reg I was referencing, carry on."  If not, the whole thing can get messy.

[Rotorhead]

I was instructed to remove grade for that particular event and obtain a name tag with my grade on it to wear with the aviator shirt, sans epaulets, if I refuse to shave the beard. 

I did what I was told, and have been making marks in the 39-1 so I have reference points to bring up with my Chain of Command.  My hope is that our Group Commander will look at the summary of changes to the 39-1 and say "Looks like they changed the reg I was referencing, carry on."  If not, the whole thing can get messy.

Probably the best solution, given the incorrect info being promulgated by the Group Cdr.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Back in the day...

And by that I mean sometime in the 1990's, it used to be that the BDU and the flight suit were worn without grade of the wearer did not meet weight/grooming.

That was done away with when the BBDU came out.

The white/blue combo is for fat guys but is disallowed for fuzzy guys.  The white and gray is for fat and/or fuzzy.

But, given the changes, confusion happens.  Some people are more easily confused than others, however.

[USADOD]

Back in the day...

And by that I mean sometime in the 1990's, it used to be that the BDU and the flight suit were worn without grade of the wearer did not meet weight/grooming.

That was done away with when the BBDU came out.

The white/blue combo is for fat guys but is disallowed for fuzzy guys.  The white and gray is for fat and/or fuzzy.

But, given the changes, confusion happens.  Some people are more easily confused than others, however.

:clap:  That is hilarious, who knew Seniors had a humorous side.

[Eclipse]

And by that I mean sometime in the 1990's, it used to be that the BDU and the flight suit were worn without grade of the wearer did not meet weight/grooming.

I believe the phase out was around 2002 to coincide with the new blue field uniform.  I joined in 99 and have photos from the early 2000's of members in beards with no grade in camo.