Time for subchasers to get benefits?

[BillB]

I find it amazing people like RRLE do not know the history of CAP. Or what the coastal patrol actually was. Was it a full time job? Yes! It wasn't a fly along the beach land and go home to cut the grass. Coastal Patrol flights were between 25 and 75 miles off the coast. Returning, pilots and observers remained on the CAP Base, or were quartered in motels off base under government contract. The Base itself was guarded by armed CAP Guards, or military personnel if the CAP Base was co=located with an Army Air Corp Field. CAP operated under orders from the War Department as military discipline was required of all members regardless of duties. RRLE  read "From Maine To Mexico" to find out about Coastal Patrol

[wingnut55]

John

I was reading either on the CAP history site or the Hero next door that the CAP sub Chasing was a forbidden subject for the News Media as such most of America was not aware of many of CAPs activities. I know that CAP members were under Military rules and regulations for sure, however I believe that the Military had very wide ranging powers over everyone.

[tarheel gumby]

A breif description of Costal Patrol and all that they did can be found in "The Flying Minute Men" and that can be found on the new member CD. It is a very good book to read. and for a good idea of what Coastal Patrol did there are histories of CPB 21 in Beaufort NC and CPB 17 in VA. That will give a good idea of what they were doing.

[CS]

Just to clarify, the US Merchant Marine is not recognized as a uniformed service and does not receive VETERANS benefits or recognition.  The HB only recognizes a period of a couple of years during WWII, and has not been passed into law.  The USMM also had the highest casualty (death) rate during WWII, higher that the USA, USAAF, USN, USMC.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I thought that ALL members of the Merchant Marine during WWII were retroactively given veterans status. 

And, I think they had the highest ALLIED death rate.  The highest death rate in WWII (80 percent of the entire force) was among U-Boat crews.

[RRLE]

There are two separate issues related to the USMM. Veteran status and veterans benefits. A 1988 court order forced the recognition of limited veteran status  for the WWII USMM. Full recognition had beeen promised to them by FDR but remained undelivered at his death.

A bill, H.R.23, has passed the House and sent to the Senate where it was referred to the Veterans Committe. The bill would:

To amend title 38, United States Code, to direct the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to establish the Merchant Mariner Equity Compensation Fund to provide benefits to certain individuals who served in the United States merchant marine (including the Army Transport Service and the Naval Transport Service) during World War II.

From an Army Time article about the bill

Rep. Bob Filner, D-Calif., the chief sponsor of the bill and the veterans' committee chairman, said he is pushing the measure as a matter of fairness to Merchant mariners who were given veterans' status years ago but never received the same benefits as other veterans.

The same bill passed the House last year but the Senate never considered it.

BTW - CAP's (or the attempt by some in CAP) in trying to latch onto these benefits is part of another Rep's strategy to defeat the bill entirely. Nice to know that some in CAP are helping put the screws to the USMM.

From the same article:

But Rep. Steve Buyer of Indiana, the committee's ranking Republican, launched a two-pronged attack: First, he argued against the entire bill because it could set a precedent for contractors working alongside U.S. troops in Iraq to also demand veterans' benefits.

He also argued that if Merchant Marine veterans deserved special status, then so do people in 28 similar groups who worked with the U.S. military during World War II — including the Flying Tigers, civilian volunteers in Bataan, the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps and the Women's Air Force Service Pilots.

The legislative skirmish ended with a 15-14 vote that excluded the 28 additional groups, and sends the Merchant Marine bill — HR 466 — off to a future vote by the full House.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Buyer seems pretty clueless.

The Womens Auxiliary Service Pilots (WASP) already were recognized as veterans back in the early 1990's, at least.  The Flying Tigers (Actually, the American Volunteer Group) became the 14th Air Force in 1942 (With the exception of "Pappy" Boyington, who re-activated his Marine Corps commission); and the Womens Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC) dropped its "Auxiliary" status before the war ended, becoming the Womens Army Corps (WAC).  All of these groups are already veterans.

[Gunner C]

3.  I believe that CAP pilots were subject to military discipline, but the "UCMJ" did not exist until after the war.  1952, I think.  The Army and the Navy each had separate laws.

You are correct, sir.  It was passed by congress in 1950 and signed into law by HST in 1951.

[wingnut55]

CAP Duty was considered as military service. Please review some of the documents at the CAP historian site. The Patti collection

http://www.caphistory.org/museum_photo_gallery_patti.html

In 1948 the USAF issued a certificate of Active Duty Military to CAP members for service in WWII.

I think this would be more than enough proof for Congress (Not for just the one Guy)

During much of WWII, CAP was commanded directly by the AAF.

[RiverAux]

Here are some things I had typed up that were drawn from the testimony before Congress I referenced earlier:

CAP coastal patrol members were considered civilians until the JAG handed down opinion SPJW 373.1 on May 8, 1942 that said that coastal patrol units

are accompanying or serving with the Army of the United States in the field, and that under the provisions of article of war 2(d) they are amenable to military discipline and subject to the jurisdiction of military courts.

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Incidentally, the testimony also said that 4,612 saw active service in coastal patrol, tow-target units, liaison patrol, and courier service.  Approx 1,200 of them later joined one of the armed forces. 

[wingnut55]

River AUx

are you working on the project to have them classified as veterans?

[RiverAux]

Nope. 

[Eclipse]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

[flyguy06]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

We have a few left, and you are right, it is WAY past time.

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.  CAP pilots and observers (who DID bring fire onto our enemies) were ignored.

I would not look for much support from an administration that has declared veterans to be "Threats to national security" though.

UUUU wow. watch it now,. I am a vet and I happen to love this administration.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

We have a few left, and you are right, it is WAY past time.

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.  CAP pilots and observers (who DID bring fire onto our enemies) were ignored.

I would not look for much support from an administration that has declared veterans to be "Threats to national security" though.

UUUU wow. watch it now,. I am a vet and I happen to love this administration.

Let me know how much the Administration loves you.

[Gunner C]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

And regardless of the internal view of CAP being military or not, the Geneva Convention includes "Civilians accompanying an armed force in the field" among those eligibble for the privilege of prisoner of war status if captured.

[Gunner C]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

And regardless of the internal view of CAP being military or not, the Geneva Convention includes "Civilians accompanying an armed force in the field" among those eligibble for the privilege of prisoner of war status if captured.

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