Time for subchasers to get benefits?

[RiverAux]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

[heliodoc]

Everyone is chirping about Obammy's redistribution of wealth

Uh No  CAP was still volunteer

Isn't that we everyone is clamoring for CAP's free services???

Is that not the entitlement "stuff" everyone is up and arms about??

Where is that money gonna come from??

I know, how about CAP's own budget??

[JohnKachenmeister]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

We have a few left, and you are right, it is WAY past time.

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.  CAP pilots and observers (who DID bring fire onto our enemies) were ignored.

I would not look for much support from an administration that has declared veterans to be "Threats to national security" though.

[BrandonKea]

Everyone is chirping about Obammy's redistribution of wealth

Uh No  CAP was still volunteer

Isn't that we everyone is clamoring for CAP's free services???

Is that not the entitlement "stuff" everyone is up and arms about??

Where is that money gonna come from??

I know, how about CAP's own budget??

I see both sides of this.

They were volunteer at the time, yes, but they certainly stuck their necks out, far more than I imagine any CAP member will ever be tasked to again. I think some sort of recognition is in order, absolutely, but why $1000 a month? Medal of Honor recipients only get slightly more than that!

And at the same time, who outside of CAP knows about the Coastal Watch? Who knows that we sunk subs? I doubt very many people know this at all.

So yes, recognition is in order, but I think the Merchant Marine legislation is more "feel good" than it is "need based," and we should look at other routes of recognizing the more unrecognized groups who helped this country in WWII.

[Short Field]

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military. 

So to get veterans benefits you have to have fired or heard shots???  Barbara London, a WASP, was awarded a Air Medal for her service in WWII - and it was awarded in WWII, not some feel-good time afterwards.  The WASPs were given veteran's benefits because they had served and many of them died flyng their missions - but in a time that women were not allowed to fly in the regular military.

[JohnKachenmeister]

a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military. 

So to get veterans benefits you have to have fired or heard shots???  Barbara London, a WASP, was awarded a Air Medal for her service in WWII - and it was awarded in WWII, not some feel-good time afterwards.  The WASPs were given veteran's benefits because they had served and many of them died flyng their missions - but in a time that women were not allowed to fly in the regular military.

You are trying to twist my words.  Stop it!

Fact:  WASP pilots did not see action, and were granted status as veterans.

Fact:  CAP pilot DID see action and were not recognized as veterans.

What's wrong with this picture?

I do not object to WASP pilots being considered veterans.  They are.  The reason that they, to the exclusion of CAP, Merchant Mariners, and others, were given veterans status is questionable.

[RRLE]

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.

Why do CAP members feel the need to denigrate the service of others, in this case the WASPs, in order to latch onto another benefit.

I quickly found the following while goggling "civil air patrol" "veterans benefits". I think someone owes the WASPs a huge apology regarding their wartime service record.

The Col Arnold mentioned in the quote below is Colonel Bruce Arnold the son of Gen Hap Arnold. I added the bolding.

The WASPs hoped to prove both that the Army had intended to officially militarize them and that in many ways they were a de facto part of the military before the end of the war. In his testimony before a House committee, Colonel Arnold outlined what he called his father's intentions to militarize the WASPs. He concluded his remarks with an impassioned plea: "...Who is more deserving, a young girl, flying on written official military orders who is shot down and killed by our own anti-aircraft artillery while carrying out those orders, or a young finance clerk with an eight to five job in a Denver office?... We hope that this committee will remember that the WASP too have borne the battle, a battle that left 79 of them killed or injured. Not to care for them also makes a mockery of the motto of the Veterans Administration as well as the whole Veterans Administration system in our country."

A former WASP commanding officer, Byrd Howell Granger, compiled a dossier of more than 100 pages of documents showing that the WASPs were subject to military discipline, that they were assigned to top secret missions, and that many of them received service ribbons after their units were disbanded. One document more than any other was especially persuasive. It was an Honorable Discharge certificate granted to WASP Helen Porter by her commanding officer at Strother Field in Kansas. It read: "This is to certify that Helen Porter honorably served in active Federal Service in the Army of the United States."

So was CAP subject to military discipline - like the WASPs were? I know the USCG Auxiliary after the formation of the USCG Temporary Reserves was not.

[Short Field]

Being a WASP pilot was a full-time paid job, not a sometimes volunteer.  They flew every type of aircraft and mission that Army Air Corps pilots flew except for combat.  IIRC, 34 died flying missions.  They were promised military commissions and agumentation into the regular military with pay and benefits but at the end of WWII were simply disbanded and sent home.  They were granted veteran's status because of what they did and the promises made and broken in WWI - NOT BECAUSE IT WAS TRENDY AND POLITICALLY CORRECT.    Everyone's service should stand on the facts of their own case.

[tarheel gumby]

Comparing the WASPs to CAP Coastal Patrol is comparing Apples to Oranges. There are many people that deserve vetran status that go unrecognized, to argue about this is pointless. Yes our members that served on AD with the CAP during WW 2 deserve vetran status

[ZigZag911]

How about VA medical benefits rather than cash? Might actually be more useful to some of these surviving pioneer members, at this stage of their lives.

[BrandonKea]

How about VA medical benefits rather than cash? Might actually be more useful to some of these surviving pioneer members, at this stage of their lives.

+1, but I hear the VA is, uh, not the greatest?

[ZigZag911]

True, but if someone has little/no health insurance, it's better than nothing.

[AirAux]

They should all be on Medicare already anyhow..  I know, we can give them PX and Commissary privileges...That's the ticket..

[Climbnsink]

We need to stop handing out gold stars as if everyone is still in first grade.  This crap needs to end, bennies for everyone and everything, building stopped because something once happened somewhere, etc.  Either paid or volunteer you get what you contracted for.  That's it.  No more no less.   

[RiverAux]

Soon after the war there was serious discussion in Congress about benefits for CAP members who served in the coastal patrol and the other "active" services (liasion patrol, courier service, etc.).  Part of that discussion was testimony from Army lawyers who said that in their opinion CAP members were subject to military discipline and the UCMJ while on such duty.  I've got copies of the Congressional Record on this somewhere. 

There were about 4000 people involved in this but IIRC Congress was worried about setting a precedent for the some 100-150K other CAP members who served during the war.

[RRLE]

There were about 4000 people involved in this but IIRC Congress was worried about setting a precedent for the some 100-150K other CAP members who served during the war.

I would imagine that the part time nature of the CAP involvement would also be a factor. The WASPs were on full time duty. So were the Philipinos who also were recently and finally recognized for their status. So were the Merchant Mariners.

You are going to have a hard time figuring out what how much time each CAPer put in during the war and therefore what fraction of a full-time equivalent they might be entitled to. They certainly don't deserve a full deal, if they deserve anything at all. Then expect all the USCG Auxies, Red Cross Nurses  and all the other unrecognized to line up at the public trough for their hand-out for their volunteer duty. Heck maybe my mother deserves a handout pension too. She was an official aircraft spotter. She could have caught a cold and died of some horrid disease while looking for enemey aircraft from roofs in NYC in the winter during the war.

[RiverAux]

The subchasers WERE full time as were the total 4000 or so in the other active services.   

[wingnut55]

YES Give them recognition.

CAPs sub chasing was classified until 1948, The first Air medals of WW2 were given to CAP pilots, I believe 90 or more Air medals were awarded to CAP pilots.  60 CAP members died in action.

Man these guys and Gals are hero's, the were volunteers but they were under orders, had the UCMJ over them, had active duty AAF commanders, Given combat training, wore AAF uniforms, Crews got Paid by the US Army 8 dollars per mission!!

Oh maybe dropping Bombs and depth Charges do not qualify??

Sign me up!! Lets March on Washington!!

And how many do you think are Left??  1,000, 2,000 or 100?

[Gunner C]

I'll wager there's fewer than 100.

[JohnKachenmeister]

1.  I am NOT denegrating the service of the WASPs.  But the CAP coastal patrol guys did as much as they did or more for the war effort.  If one group is recognized as veterans, the others, including the Merchant Marine and, yes, the Philippine Scouts, should also be so recognized.

2.  I do not think that the Coastal Patrol was classified.  The Germans certainly knew about it, and the CAP online museum has commercial advertising featuring CAP pilots in Coastal Patrol roles.  (Yes, now she flies coastal patrol for the CAP, but when the war ends, she will demand the same top performance from her washing machine that she demands from her airplane today...)

2.5  What WAS classified until after the war was the Japanese Balloon Bomb operation.  CAP flew patrols to spot the fires started by these weapons.

3.  I believe that CAP pilots were subject to military discipline, but the "UCMJ" did not exist until after the war.  1952, I think.  The Army and the Navy each had separate laws.

[BillB]

I find it amazing people like RRLE do not know the history of CAP. Or what the coastal patrol actually was. Was it a full time job? Yes! It wasn't a fly along the beach land and go home to cut the grass. Coastal Patrol flights were between 25 and 75 miles off the coast. Returning, pilots and observers remained on the CAP Base, or were quartered in motels off base under government contract. The Base itself was guarded by armed CAP Guards, or military personnel if the CAP Base was co=located with an Army Air Corp Field. CAP operated under orders from the War Department as military discipline was required of all members regardless of duties. RRLE  read "From Maine To Mexico" to find out about Coastal Patrol

[wingnut55]

John

I was reading either on the CAP history site or the Hero next door that the CAP sub Chasing was a forbidden subject for the News Media as such most of America was not aware of many of CAPs activities. I know that CAP members were under Military rules and regulations for sure, however I believe that the Military had very wide ranging powers over everyone.

[tarheel gumby]

A breif description of Costal Patrol and all that they did can be found in "The Flying Minute Men" and that can be found on the new member CD. It is a very good book to read. and for a good idea of what Coastal Patrol did there are histories of CPB 21 in Beaufort NC and CPB 17 in VA. That will give a good idea of what they were doing.

[CS]

Just to clarify, the US Merchant Marine is not recognized as a uniformed service and does not receive VETERANS benefits or recognition.  The HB only recognizes a period of a couple of years during WWII, and has not been passed into law.  The USMM also had the highest casualty (death) rate during WWII, higher that the USA, USAAF, USN, USMC.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I thought that ALL members of the Merchant Marine during WWII were retroactively given veterans status. 

And, I think they had the highest ALLIED death rate.  The highest death rate in WWII (80 percent of the entire force) was among U-Boat crews.

[RRLE]

There are two separate issues related to the USMM. Veteran status and veterans benefits. A 1988 court order forced the recognition of limited veteran status  for the WWII USMM. Full recognition had beeen promised to them by FDR but remained undelivered at his death.

A bill, H.R.23, has passed the House and sent to the Senate where it was referred to the Veterans Committe. The bill would:

To amend title 38, United States Code, to direct the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to establish the Merchant Mariner Equity Compensation Fund to provide benefits to certain individuals who served in the United States merchant marine (including the Army Transport Service and the Naval Transport Service) during World War II.

From an Army Time article about the bill

Rep. Bob Filner, D-Calif., the chief sponsor of the bill and the veterans' committee chairman, said he is pushing the measure as a matter of fairness to Merchant mariners who were given veterans' status years ago but never received the same benefits as other veterans.

The same bill passed the House last year but the Senate never considered it.

BTW - CAP's (or the attempt by some in CAP) in trying to latch onto these benefits is part of another Rep's strategy to defeat the bill entirely. Nice to know that some in CAP are helping put the screws to the USMM.

From the same article:

But Rep. Steve Buyer of Indiana, the committee's ranking Republican, launched a two-pronged attack: First, he argued against the entire bill because it could set a precedent for contractors working alongside U.S. troops in Iraq to also demand veterans' benefits.

He also argued that if Merchant Marine veterans deserved special status, then so do people in 28 similar groups who worked with the U.S. military during World War II — including the Flying Tigers, civilian volunteers in Bataan, the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps and the Women's Air Force Service Pilots.

The legislative skirmish ended with a 15-14 vote that excluded the 28 additional groups, and sends the Merchant Marine bill — HR 466 — off to a future vote by the full House.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Buyer seems pretty clueless.

The Womens Auxiliary Service Pilots (WASP) already were recognized as veterans back in the early 1990's, at least.  The Flying Tigers (Actually, the American Volunteer Group) became the 14th Air Force in 1942 (With the exception of "Pappy" Boyington, who re-activated his Marine Corps commission); and the Womens Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC) dropped its "Auxiliary" status before the war ended, becoming the Womens Army Corps (WAC).  All of these groups are already veterans.

[Gunner C]

3.  I believe that CAP pilots were subject to military discipline, but the "UCMJ" did not exist until after the war.  1952, I think.  The Army and the Navy each had separate laws.

You are correct, sir.  It was passed by congress in 1950 and signed into law by HST in 1951.

[wingnut55]

CAP Duty was considered as military service. Please review some of the documents at the CAP historian site. The Patti collection

http://www.caphistory.org/museum_photo_gallery_patti.html

In 1948 the USAF issued a certificate of Active Duty Military to CAP members for service in WWII.

I think this would be more than enough proof for Congress (Not for just the one Guy)

During much of WWII, CAP was commanded directly by the AAF.

[RiverAux]

Here are some things I had typed up that were drawn from the testimony before Congress I referenced earlier:

CAP coastal patrol members were considered civilians until the JAG handed down opinion SPJW 373.1 on May 8, 1942 that said that coastal patrol units

are accompanying or serving with the Army of the United States in the field, and that under the provisions of article of war 2(d) they are amenable to military discipline and subject to the jurisdiction of military courts.

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Incidentally, the testimony also said that 4,612 saw active service in coastal patrol, tow-target units, liaison patrol, and courier service.  Approx 1,200 of them later joined one of the armed forces. 

[wingnut55]

River AUx

are you working on the project to have them classified as veterans?

[RiverAux]

Nope. 

[Eclipse]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

[flyguy06]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

We have a few left, and you are right, it is WAY past time.

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.  CAP pilots and observers (who DID bring fire onto our enemies) were ignored.

I would not look for much support from an administration that has declared veterans to be "Threats to national security" though.

UUUU wow. watch it now,. I am a vet and I happen to love this administration.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The US House of Representatives recently passed a measure (HR23) that would give a $1,000 a month payment to those who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. 

Isn't it about time for CAP's combat veterans to receive similar recognition (if we have any left)?

We have a few left, and you are right, it is WAY past time.

The WASP pilots (who never fired nor heard a shot) were given veterans benefits years ago because it was trendy and politically-correct to recognize women in the military.  CAP pilots and observers (who DID bring fire onto our enemies) were ignored.

I would not look for much support from an administration that has declared veterans to be "Threats to national security" though.

UUUU wow. watch it now,. I am a vet and I happen to love this administration.

Let me know how much the Administration loves you.

[Gunner C]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

And regardless of the internal view of CAP being military or not, the Geneva Convention includes "Civilians accompanying an armed force in the field" among those eligibble for the privilege of prisoner of war status if captured.

[Gunner C]

Also, I note AAF Antisubmarine Command Instruction No. 1, Nov. 27, 1942 which said that coastal patrol units are to:

To patrol coastal shipping lanes as directed during daylight hours for the purpose of protecting friendly shipping and of locating and reporting enemy submarines, enemy warships, or suspicious craft, and to take action as equipment permits in destruction of enemy submarines; to conduct such special antisubmarine missions as are directed by headquarters, Army Air Force Antisubmarine Command

Sound like combat vets to me.

Could also be Blackwater Xe.

Civilians is civilians.

Incorrect.  Combatants is combatants.  If you are sent out by your government to kill an enemy, then you're a combatant.  What you are getting confused with is overrated security guards and rent-a-cops.  I looked at Blackwater at one time.  I couldn't hold my nose - too many wannabees.  I don't operate with folks whose answer to any situation is to shoot someone.

Our antisubmarine hunter ancestors were not of that ilk.  They weren't cowboys, they were patriots who were eager to serve their country any way they could.  Comparing them to Blackwater does them a great disservice.

And regardless of the internal view of CAP being military or not, the Geneva Convention includes "Civilians accompanying an armed force in the field" among those eligibble for the privilege of prisoner of war status if captured.

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