Cadets Forced To Attend CAP

[majdomke]

I've gone through the forums and can't really find what I'm looking for. I'd like advice regarding cadets who are forced by their parents to attend CAP. I've read the post about homeschooling and I know my cadet is home schooled so perhaps the reason his parents make him come. I'm just looking for advice from my fellow CAP'ers on how you handle these situations and perhaps ways you overcame it. Thanks.

[RiverAux]

I think we stopped the CAP draft in the early 70s....

[majdomke]

I pulled my one cadet aside this past week and told him to try and make the best of it. I can't make his mom do what he wants. She's obviously forcing him for a reason. I just basically said to him that he was making the situation worse by not being motivated and not doing anything. He's also the main source of my poor uniform issues (see other post). You'd think he'd get tired of getting yelled at for his uniform and attitude or peer pressure would kick in, but not yet.

[Major Lord]

We had a cadet forced into joining CAP by his active-duty daddy, who thought we would "straighten him out". Instead of attending meetings, he was smoking the heathen devil weed and badmouthing his country with his other other little friends. Dad called in a tizzy after several months wanting to know why we permitted facial hair and body piercings, and we told him that his son had quit months before and not been back. The lesson for me was to put the REJECT stamp on applicants as soon as we became aware that mommy and daddy looked at us like day care or piano lessons. We are not a scared-straight program, or even a correctional facility for special needs kids.

[Pylon]

You're Deputy Commander for Cadets.  Step up and take some responsibility for the integrity of your program!    If the cadet doesn't want to be in your program, go right ahead and disenroll him. 

As Major Lord pointed out, I would never accept an application for a teenager whose parents were forcing him or her to be in CAP.   If I found out one of my cadets were running into lots of problems and then discovered it was because he or she did not want to be there, but rather was in our program under orders from the parents, you can be sure a long discussion would follow.  Remember, your unit retains the rights to determine who has the privilege of participating in your program.  Do not allow parents of cadets to take that power and discretion away from the senior members.

Having cadets who are forced to be in CAP is simply not conducive to the way we do things, by and large.  There's a large chance he or she will not actively participate, not try to further themselves and simply be a drag on your unit.  From the brief descriptions you've already given of the cadet in your situation (main source of your uniform problems, attitude, etc.), that would appear to ring true.  So step up, bring everyone in for a conversation (parents, cadet, commander) and come to a resolution where either the cadet decides he wants to participate, or let him go from the program entirely.  That's what I'd do.

[majdomke]

He actually wasn't forced to join, he was the one who wanted to join. He joined along with two other siblings who didn't want to join. Now, five months in, one of the other siblings is excelling, the other stuck it out and is doing ok, and then the one who wanted in all along decided he's done. I know I'm the DCC, I'm looking for ways to keep him in and try to get him involved, not kick him out.

[majdomke]

bring everyone in for a conversation (parents, cadet, commander) and come to a resolution where either the cadet decides he wants to participate, or let him go from the program entirely.  That's what I'd do.

This sounds more reasonable than kicking him out. Perhaps having to explain to his parents why he has been acting this way might be reason enough to turn around. Or, get them to realize we are not in the babysitting business.

[PA Guy]

We aren't social workers or baby sitters.  If the cadet doesn't want to be there cut him loose.  The cadet knows what he wants to do now that he has taken a look at the program and decided it isn't for him. You need to explain this to the parents and work with them.  If not you are going to find that you are spending an inordinate amount of time on this one cadet to the detriment of the others.  And whatever you do, do not send this cadet to encampment if he doesn't want to go.

[RiverAux]

In this situation, you can also remind the cadet that he personally signed underneath this statement:

I hereby make application for cadet membership in Civil Air Patrol. I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air
Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Until his membership expires he has obligated himself to participate in the program and should have the integrity to do so until such time as he requests to resign, which he has the option to do with or without his parent's permision -- The way I read it you need your parent's permission to join, but I don't see anything requiring their approval of a cadet's request to resign voluntarily. 

[majdomke]

That makes perfect sense River Aux... He did attend a BCS just prior to deciding he wanted to get out. Maybe that the straw that broke the camels back. I would never send him to encampment or sign off on it. Activities outside the squadron are closely watched and only those who represent CAP are allowed to attend.

[Spike]

I had a group of Home School Cadets whose parents made them join because the State gave them Physical Education and "outside activity" credits towards graduating.

After the majority of them decided it was just about showing up and not participating, I met with the parents and told them that If the Cadets did not start actively participating and attending events outside normal squadron meetings, I would write letters to the state education board and inform them of the situation.

Next meeting none of the Cadets from home school showed up, they went and joined the community track club.

Sometimes, people join CAP with ulterior motives, or for a quick situational fix.  I had a few kids want to join because the juvenile court had ordered them to find a community service organization to work off hours. 

My advice; be upfront, honest, direct and hold your position.  If you don't the Cadets that do not really want to be there will drag your program down the toilet. 

[LtCol057]

I've found that sometimes, not always, cadets that are home schooled have a deficiency in social interactions.  Sometimes if they are active in CAP, they work thru that deficiency.

As far as cadets not coming to the meetings, it might be a good idea to notify the parents anytime the cadet misses meetings.  We had a cadet a few years ago that told his father he was coming to the meetings, when in reality, he was going out with his buddies and getting stoned.  It came to light when he got injured in a wreck and his father called raising all kinds of cane.  When we pulled the signin sheets and showed his father that he hadn't been to a meeting in 3 months, the story changed.  I realize cadets might miss a meeting occasionally. But if they miss 3 meetings in a row, and we weren't notified in advance, I want a letter sent to the parents. If the cadet decides to quit the program, I want a resignation in writing.

A few years ago, when I was the DCC, I had 2 cadets that quit coming to meetings for a couple of months. Then they realized that they needed the community service credit, they wanted me to sign their sheets.  I refused, telling them and their parents that since they quit coming, they were no longer eligible for my signature. 

[GoofyOne]

Here's one for you.  We have a couple of cadets in our squadron who wear their uniform well.  However, they do not participate.  By this I mean in discussions and conversations.  They are sarcastic with the leading cadets and seniors.  When team building activites are done they grumble and make life misarable.  They do nothing besides the regular meetings.  No encampmant, no bivouac, no fundraising, no fun activities with the other squadrons. Zero participation outside of squadron. Their dad is also a member and the DCC.  The hands are tied for all leading cadets and other seniors who see the issue. DC just lets it go.  This is truly a situation of between a rock and a hard place.

[BillB]

In pre-CPPT days, one Florida Juvenile Judge discovered CAP. He required the juvenile offenders to join CAP for a two year "probation" period. Enough of these kids were forced into CAP that they started their own Squadron. It didn't take long before the kids started to get with the program and wanted to be better cadets than in other Squadrons in the area. They actually took pride into being in the "reject" Squadron. And for some reason, kids in the area wanted to join the offenders unit. Granted the Squadron had great senior leadership and the kids really got into CAP. Trying to outdo each other to become Flt Sgts etc, caused the cadets to really turn their lives around. The Squadron died after about four or five years after the judge retired.

[Rotorhead]

Their dad is also a member and the DCC.

How the heck was this allowed to happen?

[GoofyOne]

Small squadron.

[Spike]

Here's one for you.  We have a couple of cadets in our squadron who wear their uniform well.  However, they do not participate.  By this I mean in discussions and conversations.  They are sarcastic with the leading cadets and seniors.  When team building activities are done they grumble and make life miserable.  They do nothing besides the regular meetings.  No encampment, no bivouac, no fundraising, no fun activities with the other squadrons. Zero participation outside of squadron. Their dad is also a member and the DCC.  The hands are tied for all leading cadets and other seniors who see the issue. DC just lets it go.  This is truly a situation of between a rock and a hard place.

Go around the DAD.  He is forging the promotions, I do believe the Cadet Promotions call for "Active Participation", well.....that means activities outside of normal meetings too.....does it not?

[NC Hokie]

Their dad is also a member and the DCC.

How the heck was this allowed to happen?

I've never seen any prohibition against a DCC (or other senior cadet staffer) having children as members of the squadron.

[NC Hokie]

Go around the DAD.  He is forging the promotions, I do believe the Cadet Promotions call for "Active Participation", well.....that means activities outside of normal meetings too.....does it not?

"Active Participation" is one of those nebulous phrases that NHQ loves to put in our regulations.  I've seen it defined as participation outside of the weekly meetings, regular attendance at weekly meetings, and being engaged (taking notes, asking and answering questions, etc.) during meetings and activities.  Seems to me that these cadets fail two of those three, but if the squadron goes with the middle definition, there's not much that can be done.

[GoofyOne]

The DC accepts this.  It is felt that if it is questioned ramifications will happen to other cadets of SM.

[GoofyOne]

Correction the Squadron Commander accepts this.

[majdomke]

Their dad is also a member and the DCC.

How the heck was this allowed to happen?

I'm the DCC and I have two kids in my unit. Does that mean I need to resign? If anything, I make my two kids work and train harder than anyone else so there are no signs of nepotism.

[majdomke]

Correction the Squadron Commander accepts this.

If you truly believe regulations are being violated, you have an obligation to notify your group or wing IG. This can be done anonymously if needed. My take on what you're saying is that favoritism is being displayed along with disregard for regulations regarding cadet promotions.

[GoofyOne]

The participation side is considered the meetings but those that do stuff outside don't seem to get extra credit. 

One cadet has/had been held back from promotions to get leadership experience but they can't really get that in the squadron but he is trying. 

I'm aware of the regs and understand them completley but others in high positions interpret in different ways.  Have no choice but to follow the leader.

This is truly a rock and a hard place and one dares not make waves because it will come back to haunt in a really big way.  We just have to suck it up and deal with it or those who don't like it quit or move on.

[Polecat]

I've found that sometimes, not always, cadets that are home schooled have a deficiency in social interactions.  Sometimes if they are active in CAP, they work thru that deficiency. *Snip*

IMO The fact that they are home schooled has nothing to do with it. I am home schooled and the only differance I have noticed is that I have advanced faster than ANY cadet in my squadron.  And making a generalization like that just isn't right. The same exact thing could be said about public and private school kids. I have found that the other home schoolers I have worked with have been more focesed than public schoolers because they treat it like a normal public school classroom. And if you go to/gone to or have taught at a public school recently, you would know how disrespectful they are to the teachers.

That being said, what you should do is sit down with their parents and tell them that if the cadet doesn't want to be there he shouldn't be there. In my experience cadets that don't want to be there just make it misrable for those who want to and like being there.

Sorry for the long post and any spelling errors because the spell check wouldn't work for me.

[notaNCO forever]

I've found that sometimes, not always, cadets that are home schooled have a deficiency in social interactions.  Sometimes if they are active in CAP, they work thru that deficiency.

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting. 

[BrandonKea]

I've found that sometimes, not always, cadets that are home schooled have a deficiency in social interactions.  Sometimes if they are active in CAP, they work thru that deficiency.

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

I've personally seen a mix of both.

[davedove]

Their dad is also a member and the DCC.

How the heck was this allowed to happen?

I'm the DCC and I have two kids in my unit. Does that mean I need to resign? If anything, I make my two kids work and train harder than anyone else so there are no signs of nepotism.

Which isn't right either.  You have to find the right balance so that you treat them the SAME as other cadets.

[majdomke]

Their dad is also a member and the DCC.

How the heck was this allowed to happen?

I'm the DCC and I have two kids in my unit. Does that mean I need to resign? If anything, I make my two kids work and train harder than anyone else so there are no signs of nepotism.

Which isn't right either.  You have to find the right balance so that you treat them the SAME as other cadets.

In my role as DCC, they are treated equally. In my role as their father, they are pushed to live up to their potential. Most parents dump and run. They are the ones whose cadets perform poorly, fail to advance and never take on any outside activities. The parents who take the time to come in once in awhile are the ones who make sure their cadets are on time, in proper uniform and maintain progress in the program. I probably have 25-50% of my cadets whom I've never met their parents. It's sad but true. In this society where parents are divorced and many teens are left on their own to do their own thing, they luckily show up at CAP's doorstep so we can help turn them into successful adults. The parents might be forced to sign the application but there's nothing we can do to force them to show interest.

[Spike]

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

Please post the link to the report you are getting these statistics from.  I can point you to reports that say the exact opposite. 

[notaNCO forever]

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

Please post the link to the report you are getting these statistics from.  I can point you to reports that say the exact opposite.

I spent half a semester researching this, I'll have to look but I believe those facts were from a report released by the government.

[BrandonKea]

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

Please post the link to the report you are getting these statistics from.  I can point you to reports that say the exact opposite.

I spent half a semester researching this, I'll have to look but I believe those facts were from a report released by the government.

Oh not that Government thing again 

[cap235629]

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

Please post the link to the report you are getting these statistics from.  I can point you to reports that say the exact opposite.

I spent half a semester researching this, I'll have to look but I believe those facts were from a report released by the government.

In my own PERSONAL experience I would have to vote with the opposite of your position.

I am involved in MANY youth activities including all of those mentioned.

I also live in a part of the country where home-schooling is extremely common.

The majority of the young men and women I encounter who are home-schooled are on average 2-3 years behind their peers socially.  Most are advanced academically.

YMMV

[notaNCO forever]

The average home schooler is better socialized than most public schooled kids with a wider variety of people. They are also involved, on average, of 5.2 "after school" activities like Boy scouts, CAP, church youth groups, ect. The myth that they are social misfits is wrong and insulting.

Please post the link to the report you are getting these statistics from.  I can point you to reports that say the exact opposite.

I spent half a semester researching this, I'll have to look but I believe those facts were from a report released by the government.

In my own PERSONAL experience I would have to vote with the opposite of your position.

I am involved in MANY youth activities including all of those mentioned.

I also live in a part of the country where home-schooling is extremely common.

The majority of the young men and women I encounter who are home-schooled are on average 2-3 years behind their peers socially.  Most are advanced academically.

YMMV

Maybe I'm just letting my personal opinion get in the way and trusting a few statistics to much; in my life I have met home schoolers that have no social problems and some that are not the best socially. I live  on the Eastern seaboard and most home schoolers I meet are socially adept I don't know many home schoolers from down South and in the Midwest though. I think parents who are extreme in their religious beliefs tend to cause more problems than homeschooling in particular.

[majdomke]

Please return to topic...

[arajca]

The unit I work with has a simple philosophy:
Child likes CAP, Parents don't/indifferent - no application
Parents like CAP, child doesn't/indifferent - no application
Child likes CAP, parents like CAP - application

Until the commander meet with the parents, potential cadets do not receive an application.

Lost a few potential cadets because of this, but in general, parents really appreciate it.

[Ned]

The unit I work with has a simple philosophy:
Child likes CAP, Parents don't/indifferent - no application
Parents like CAP, child doesn't/indifferent - no application
Child likes CAP, parents like CAP - application

Until the commander meet with the parents, potential cadets do not receive an application.

Lost a few potential cadets because of this, but in general, parents really appreciate it.

I concur with almost everything above, but as a former cadet with indifferent parents and also as a former parent indifferent to at least some of the endless variety of activities my children engaged in (music lessons, ballet, swim team, drama club, HS sports, Scouts, etc. etc. etc.), I would suggest that the unit commander rethink her/his position on "interested cadet / indifferent folks".

Usually, it is only after the cadet begins to succeed as a troop that we can get the appreciation / engagement of the parents.  It's a bit much to expect that when both the potential cadet and the folks know little or nothing about the program.

Ned Lee
Former Cadet

[Eclipse]

I concur with almost everything above, but as a former cadet with indifferent parents and also as a former parent indifferent to at least some of the endless variety of activities my children engaged in (music lessons, ballet, swim team, drama club, HS sports, Scouts, etc. etc. etc.), I would suggest that the unit commander rethink her/his position on "interested cadet / indifferent folks".

Ditto "don't like" vs. "won't let them play" are two different things.

Also, what do you do when mom is an anti-military "hippie" and dad is a gung-ho fighter jock?  BTDT.   

[Polecat]

I concur with almost everything above, but as a former cadet with indifferent parents and also as a former parent indifferent to at least some of the endless variety of activities my children engaged in (music lessons, ballet, swim team, drama club, HS sports, Scouts, etc. etc. etc.), I would suggest that the unit commander rethink her/his position on "interested cadet / indifferent folks".

Ditto "don't like" vs. "won't let them play" are two different things.

Also, what do you do when mom is an anti-military "hippie" and dad is a gung-ho fighter jock?  BTDT.   

Couples like that just make me wonder....  I have had cadets who liked it but had to quit because their parents were hippies. But sit down and talk with the parents and tell them that they don't have to join the military and we are not the military. A long talk like that usually helps unless they are pretty much unreasonable about it.

As far as the home school thing:
Open a "Homeschooling and CAP" topic and I will gladly discuss and debate til the cows come home. This topic is not the place for it.