Separate Organizations

[RADIOMAN015]

I think that if the AF seriously thought about this they would probably decide to drop the cadet program entirley and just make it a seniors-only organization.  After all they already have a much-larger JROTC program that is probably more or less as effective as CAP at what it does for youths.  Right now the only real difference between the two is that CAP cadets can participate in ES missions, but I don't think the AF really cares about that too much.

Doesn't the pay for the JROTC instructors have to be funded by the local community?  Due to this significant economic downturn and school budget strains, I would suspect this is one of the programs that in some communities will be cut.
CAP's cadet program is far less expensive overall & accomplishes more that JROTC, which is basically just marching around in circles!
RM 

[2ltAlexD]

I think the reason to split the Cadet and Senior programs up would give the actual AF Aux more opportunities for actual Air Force mitions and would give CAP more respect.

[Nathan]

I think the reason to split the Cadet and Senior programs up would give the actual AF Aux more opportunities for actual Air Force mitions and would give CAP more respect.

How would either of these occur by splitting the organization?

[PA Guy]

I think the reason to split the Cadet and Senior programs up would give the actual AF Aux more opportunities for actual Air Force mitions and would give CAP more respect.

Cadets aren't part of the "actual AF Aux"?  What about the ones that are ES rated and probably participating in an AFAM somewhere today? What do you think those "actual AF mitions" might be? How would getting rid of the cadets garner more respect? Are you saying that cadets conduct themselves in such a manner as to bring disrespect on the organization? Are you suggesting that without cadets CAP would then be composed of only high speed low drag senior members? How do cadets prevent us from receiving Air Force missions?

[es_g0d]

I'm in no way advocating the position, but many emergency responders require a minimum of age 18 for liability purposes.

[Spike]

^ Our insurers don't have the same liability rules as your local EMS or Fire Company.

[Cecil DP]

I think that if the AF seriously thought about this they would probably decide to drop the cadet program entirley and just make it a seniors-only organization.  After all they already have a much-larger JROTC program that is probably more or less as effective as CAP at what it does for youths.  Right now the only real difference between the two is that CAP cadets can participate in ES missions, but I don't think the AF really cares about that too much.

Doesn't the pay for the JROTC instructors have to be funded by the local community?  Due to this significant economic downturn and school budget strains, I would suspect this is one of the programs that in some communities will be cut.
CAP's cadet program is far less expensive overall & accomplishes more that JROTC, which is basically just marching around in circles!
RM

JROTC Instructors are paid the difference between their retired pay and the pay they would receive on active duty.

[JayT]

Well, first off the orginal poster hasn't answered any of The questions asked of her throught this thread. I'd like to understand her plan better.

Second, JROTC is a lot more then just marching. I recieved much more academic knowledge in JROTC, as well as a lot more informal and formal leadership experience then I ever did in CAP. So, just because you have your stereotypes, doesn't mean thats whats right. For example, I recieved high school credit for JROTC. 

[es_g0d]

^ Our insurers don't have the same liability rules as your local EMS or Fire Company.

True.  But, in many cases, neither are they permitted to use personnel under the age of 18 on their incidents.  Thus if we wanted to work more interagency and on a greater number of incidents, this sticky issue would need to be clarified. 

[Spike]

^ Our insurers don't have the same liability rules as your local EMS or Fire Company.

True.  But, in many cases, neither are they permitted to use personnel under the age of 18 on their incidents.  Thus if we wanted to work more interagency and on a greater number of incidents, this sticky issue would need to be clarified.

True

.....JROTC is a lot more then just marching. I received much more academic knowledge in JROTC, as well as a lot more informal and formal leadership experience then I ever did in CAP. So, just because you have your stereotypes, doesn't mean that's whats right. For example, I received high school credit for JROTC. 

I was never in JROTC (just ROTC) so my question is how much student to instructor time is there during a normal week?  Is it a class everyday or just once a week?  Second, I have a fairly good Cadet Program running in the Squadron.  We have far more leadership and leadership activities (labs) than most Squadrons do.  I have a 4 person team working the Cadet Program side of the house.  With over 30 Cadets it is a big chunk of our energy in the Squadron.

I would not say that JROTC is better than CAP, nor would I say CAP is better than JROTC.  Heck, I had fewer hours in ROTC classes leading to a Commission than I spent in four years as a CAP Cadet in a classroom environment. 

[es_g0d]

And the leadership laboratory of participating in ES as a cadet provides more real-world leadership training and experience than AFJROTC, AFROTC, USAFA, or the CAP cadet program without ES could ever hope to approximate.

[JayT]

And the leadership laboratory of participating in ES as a cadet provides more real-world leadership training and experience than AFJROTC, AFROTC, USAFA, or the CAP cadet program without ES could ever hope to approximate.

First off, are you sure that you want to inculde USAFA on that list? I hear they provide some pretty good training without looking for ELT's.

Second, when it comes down to it, the ES experience and training many, if not most, cadets recieved is largely camping skills, and field craft. And some of those skills are penciled whipped in.

I think that not only could the CPR survive without ES, but may actually do better, because it wouldn't have to worry about the entirely culture of CAP ES in many places. A lot of cadets spend a lot of money on gear they'll never need to use because they don't get called out, or have other obligations.

But this is super off topic.

[es_g0d]

Yes, I'm very certain I want to include USAFA in that list.  I learned more practical leadership as a CAP cadet on a ground team than I did in four years at USAFA.    Some CAP cadets may not get as much out of the program as others, that's simply the breaks. 

Nonetheless, I firmly believe that it is ES that makes the largest standout contribution that differentiates it from other programs.  Because of that, it actually is better preparation for real life or even "the real Air Force."  Its easy to keep your boots shined if you never go out in the woods!  We're all members of the organization first, and complete the mission (necessarily) afterwards.

The CAP cadet program could certainly survive without ES.  It does so in may places.  Its simply a much richer program if ES is included.

[jimmydeanno]

My 'suggestion' earlier was thought because it would be much easier to market each program individually.  I think it would be a lot easier to answer the question, "What are you?" 

Instead of "The Civil Air Patrol is a congressionally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation with three missions; Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education and Emergency Services who perform 95% of the inland search missions tasked by the AFRCC...yada...yada...yada  which leaves people completely confused.  Also notice that the other two missions are completely left out because we go straight to the ES side.

Splitting the missions into independent groups with better delineation between them would also help with having other program managers make decisions for your program.  For example, you're the Cadet Programs guy at NHQ. 

You have a vision of the image you want to portray with the program.  You are given the ability to create materials, etc.  Then voila, the ES guy decides that every cadet must take OPSEC, regardless of whether or not they want anything to do with ES.  OPSEC, which has absolutely nothing to do with the core CAP Cadet Program requirements or needs becomes the very first thing they have to do after sending in their application, simply because to order their uniforms they need to go into e-services. 

Or for example, you have a cadet squadron who does nothing to do with ES.  Now, they run the risk of getting shut down if they don't do OPSEC, etc. 

I also think that it might be time to have our paid NHQ employees actually have some authority over the stuff they're supposed to do (like the Head Cadet Program guy being allowed to create policy and tell Wing DCPs that they need to get their crap together, etc.)

YMMV

[ZigZag911]

What are we trying to "fix" here at national level?

Confusing advertising? poor public/USAF/congressional/US government perception of our identity and capabilities?

Look, CAP is far from perfect....but the root of these problems seems to be training at the local level, and continuing the PAO effort that has been going on for some time....keep spreading the word, support our PA folks, do our jobs -- we're far stronger united than we'd be split up as proposed.

[Gunner C]

One of the challenges here is, while we have plenty of PA, we have little marketing.  What little we have is disjointed, not related to a marketing campaign.

[es_g0d]

I think that's a really good point... a marketing campaign would be excellent.

Anything would be better than the NASCAR fiasco.

[Cecil DP]

I think that's a really good point... a marketing campaign would be excellent.

Anything would be better than the NASCAR fiasco.

The $6,000,000 Million Fiasco

[Nathan]

Instead of "The Civil Air Patrol is a congressionally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation with three missions; Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education and Emergency Services who perform 95% of the inland search missions tasked by the AFRCC...yada...yada...yada  which leaves people completely confused.  Also notice that the other two missions are completely left out because we go straight to the ES side.

Eh, I solve this problem by specifically recruiting to a certain mission.

I usually start out with, "What do you know about us?" Then I move on to, "Why are you here?"

With cadets, it easy. I touch briefly on the other two missions, but hit cadet programs as hard as I can. If they're interested in doing ES, then I'll talk about ES more, but if they aren't, then for all intents and purposes, they don't need to know any more than that CAP does, in fact, have an ES branch. As far as they are concerned, CAP IS the cadet program.

I think that the problems mentioned COULD be solved by separating the branches, but I see it causing a lot more hassle than is necessary. Most of the problems mentioned can be solved internally without nearly as much work.

[Chicago_Pilot]

Eh, I solve this problem by specifically recruiting to a certain mission.

I usually start out with, "What do you know about us?" Then I move on to, "Why are you here?"

This approach makes a lot of sense.  It is the same way I was taught to flight instruct.

When I first meet up with a new flying student, I ask why they are learning how to fly.  Some are doing it to become airline pilots.  So we learn to use the rudder to make sure people don't spill their drinks.  For others, it is about recreation.  So we learn how to plan a cross country to a great resort.  One new student told me he was learning to fly in order to be able to steal airplanes!  Turns out he was a repo guy.  So we learned about the importance of logbooks (you need to repo the logbook too) and doing a thorough preflight!

If I can teach very different flying students, I think CAP can have a variety of missions.  It makes for a much richer organization.