kilts at special events

[Rob Sherlin]

39-1 doesn't say anything about it, but has anyone worn a kilt to a special event (like a wedding) with a mess dress uniform? If so, did you wear a regular tartan, or the Air Force tartan since it's basically an Air Force Mess uniform?

[RiverAux]

39-1 doesn't have to say that you can't wear a kilt.  If it isn't listed as a uniform, it doesn't exist as far as CAP is concerned.  It doesn't prohibit wearing a suit of armor either.

[PHall]

I refer you to Paragraph 1-1 of CAPM 39-1.

Short version, if it's not in the reg, you can't wear it.

[Pylon]

As above, per Paragraph 1-1 of CAPM 39-1, the manual is exclusionary in nature.  In other words, the manual must explicitly list and authorize something for wear with the uniform otherwise it cannot be worn.  If this were not the case, 39-1 would have to create an endless list of prohibited items from pink beanies and crocs to squadron smoking jackets and monocles.

So in other words, never acceptable.  What would be acceptable would be wearing your kilt and whatever civilian attire that goes with it, along with a Civil Air Patrol lapel pin.

[Hawk200]

..., or the Air Force tartan since it's basically an Air Force Mess uniform?

There is no Air Force Mess uniform that includes a kilt. One of the Air Force bands wears a uniform that includes a kilt and is very fancy, but it is not a uniform that everyone in the Air Force can wear.

There's no paralell to draw with Civil Air Patrol. We don't even have an official band.

[isuhawkeye]

I wear a kilt quite regularly.  I wore one at my wedding.

I have never considered doing a mix and match quasi air force uniform

The prince charlie jacket looks great, and many wear ribbons, and medals on that jacket

[Rob Sherlin]

 Was just a curiosity because a member I met said he did so at a wedding. The Air Force DOES have a tartan (a unique kilt pattern)! Other than wearing it with a dress uniform or something, I don't know when the kilts used.

  PS...The mess dress jacket would look good with a kilt.........Wish CAP had it's own tartan!

[SarDragon]

I have seen a kilt with the AF tartan worn twice on formal occasions - once at a civilian event, and the other at a CAP event. Both looked really great, and I certainly wasn't going to be the party-pooper telling someone they weren't supposed to be wearing them, particularly at the CAP event. [Lancer knows who I'm talking about.]

[ltcmark]

Here you go:

[PHall]

Was just a curiosity because a member I met said he did so at a wedding. The Air Force DOES have a tartan (a unique kilt pattern)! Other than wearing it with a dress uniform or something, I don't know when the kilts used.

  PS...The mess dress jacket would look good with a kilt.........Wish CAP had it's own tartan!

The tartan you speak of is worn by the Pipe Band of The Band of the Air Force Reserve.

The have special permission from HQ AFRC and HQ USAF to wear the kilt and the accessories that go with it with the Air Force Service Dress Jacket.

They were also the ones who designed and registered the tartan.

[Hawk200]

Was just a curiosity because a member I met said he did so at a wedding. The Air Force DOES have a tartan (a unique kilt pattern)! Other than wearing it with a dress uniform or something, I don't know when the kilts used.

  PS...The mess dress jacket would look good with a kilt.........Wish CAP had it's own tartan!

The tartan you speak of is worn by the Pipe Band of The Band of the Air Force Reserve.

The have special permission from HQ AFRC and HQ USAF to wear the kilt and the accessories that go with it with the Air Force Service Dress Jacket.

They were also the ones who designed and registered the tartan.

I've seen kilts with service dress coats, but I believe the Piper's Band uniform is now completely unique, and doesn't share components with service dress any longer. Only a few of the insignia are Air Force. It's a sharp looking outfit, though.

[cap235629]

if one wanted they could design a tartan and send it up the chain of command, and if approved, register it.  I will tell you that I am sure that the registering it part will be the easiest.............

[D2SK]

How cute.  Men in skirts.  In uniform.

[CadetProgramGuy]

How cute.  Men in skirts.  In uniform.

**Throat Clearing**

Kilts....Men in Kilts.....

[Eclipse]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5288.msg101366#msg101366

[argentip]

I have seen a kilt with the AF tartan worn twice on formal occasions - once at a civilian event, and the other at a CAP event. Both looked really great, and I certainly wasn't going to be the party-pooper telling someone they weren't supposed to be wearing them, particularly at the CAP event. [Lancer knows who I'm talking about.]

The member you mention has worn his kilt since I have known him.  It's now a tradition I guess.

[Hawk200]

How cute.  Men in skirts.  In uniform.

Are you familiar with the concept of "intolerance"? Make sure you look at the word "intolerant" as well.

Comments like that are inappropriate. If it's not your thing, say so. But don't be bashing a culture you're ignorant of.

[Slim]

I have seen a kilt with the AF tartan worn twice on formal occasions - once at a civilian event, and the other at a CAP event. Both looked really great, and I certainly wasn't going to be the party-pooper telling someone they weren't supposed to be wearing them, particularly at the CAP event. [Lancer knows who I'm talking about.]

The member you mention has worn his kilt since I have known him.  It's now a tradition I guess.

I'm not 100% sure if that's an AF tartan, or his family's.  Either way, he doesn't wear it with a CAP uniform.  In his case, it would constitute civilian attire.  Clergy shirt and a dinner jacket with Air Force medals/master aircrew wings (he's a retired SMSgt), which is-I believe-allowed.

He's been doing it the 20 years I've known him, and Pops in drag has become a MIWG/GLR-N tradition.

[isuhawkeye]

How cute.  Men in skirts.  In uniform.

The kilt has been a military uniform longer than any uniform you wear.

Brave men have worn Kilts into battle for generations.  They are hardly skirts, and comments like that just show ignorance

[PlaneFlyr]

The concept is interesting, but like any other deviation from 39-1, would require appropriate approvals.  Run the idea up through your wing commander, so he/she can bring it up at the next National Board meeting.  If CAP NB approves it, final approval will still have to be granted by USAF.  And most likely, they'd only allow the approved USAF kilt pattern.

Does anybody know if USAF allows people, other than their pipe band, to wear a kilt?  If they don't, then we probably won't either.

On a side note - nobody would want to see my pasty white legs in formal attire, especially if there is a meal at the event.

[RiverAux]

And most likely, they'd only allow the approved USAF kilt pattern.

Nah, it would need to have CAP-distinctive ultramarine blue markings on it.  You know that the entire structure of the Air Force would collapse were a CAP member to be mistaken for a member of the AF pipe band. 

[Hawk200]

And most likely, they'd only allow the approved USAF kilt pattern.

Nah, it would need to have CAP-distinctive ultramarine blue markings on it.  You know that the entire structure of the Air Force would collapse were a CAP member to be mistaken for a member of the AF pipe band. 

As long as it doesn't look like the chicken foot scarf...

[PlaneFlyr]

And most likely, they'd only allow the approved USAF kilt pattern.

Nah, it would need to have CAP-distinctive ultramarine blue markings on it.  You know that the entire structure of the Air Force would collapse were a CAP member to be mistaken for a member of the AF pipe band. 

My bad.

[Grumpy]

"squadron smoking jackets and monocles"  Now I like that!  I usually have problems with dropping my monocle in my soup though,

[Grumpy]

Actually, the first time I saw a kilt at an AF dinning out/Dinning in was on a DVD that Maxwell put out.  The DVD has examples excerpts from the manual of arms for the saber, color guard and some other items this old doesn't remember.  But the thing I do remember is seeing the VIP approaching the head table and the last guy was wearing a kilt so I had to do some research on that.

http://www.scottishtartans.org/USAF.htm

[D2SK]

How cute.  Men in skirts.  In uniform.

**Throat Clearing**

Kilts....Men in Kilts.....

Not that  there's anything wrong with that.

[RogueLeader]

And most likely, they'd only allow the approved USAF kilt pattern.

Nah, it would need to have CAP-distinctive ultramarine blue markings on it.  You know that the entire structure of the Air Force would collapse were a CAP member to be mistaken for a member of the AF pipe band. 

I know:

Standard USAF Blue with ultramarine blue on top edge, say 1.5" border, and 1.5 inch Grey border on the bottom.

[O-Rex]

Kilt with CAP uniform: NO

Yeah, the USAF Pipe and Drum Band wears them, but all services have distinctive band uniforms that the line troops cannot wear.

Alternative: wear your own (would be considered civilian attire) it's customary to wear them with a military-style jacket: we had one guy who actually wore his kilt-ensemble to a CAP dining-in. 

Two 'musts:'

1. Actually BE of Scottish descent.

2. Be able to pull-off wearing it ( ! )

[RogueLeader]

Irish don'twear kilts?

[Hawk200]

Two 'musts:'

1. Actually BE of Scottish descent.

2. Be able to pull-off wearing it ( ! )

Then two things

1. Completely Scottish or will a percentage do?

2. Define "pull off wearing it"

[davidsinn]

Irish don'twear kilts?

They do. My wife is of Irish decent and her family has a Tartan.

[ol'fido]

I love the idea of wearing a kilt in this manner!!

And I do believe that in WWI the German laddies referred to the Scottish Highland Regiments as the "Ladies from [Hades]". I was trying to avoid the foul language filter there and made it a rhyme without thinking about it.

[Grumpy]

I love the idea of wearing a kilt in this manner!!

And I do believe that in WWI the German laddies referred to the Scottish Highland Regiments as the "Ladies from [Hades]". I was trying to avoid the foul language filter there and made it a rhyme without thinking about it.

. . .and I thought my humor was sick.  Then again, a sick sense of humor is better than no sense of humor.

[LtCol057]

Not sure if it was authorized or not, but one of my former cadets has posted on his Facebook page a pic of him wearing a kilt along with the USAF Mess Dress jacket.  He was a Spaatz cadet and an Air Force Academy grad, so I'd assume he would know if he could wear it or not.  He was never the type to go outside of the regs.

[PHall]

Not sure if it was authorized or not, but one of my former cadets has posted on his Facebook page a pic of him wearing a kilt along with the USAF Mess Dress jacket.  He was a Spaatz cadet and an Air Force Academy grad, so I'd assume he would know if he could wear it or not.  He was never the type to go outside of the regs.

It's not even remotely authorised by AFI 36-2903.

I too have seen Air Force personnel wearing the kilt with the mess dress jacket, at a non-Air Force event.

It would get ugly very quickly if you tried to wear a kilt to an "official" Air Force event.

[SarDragon]

I have seen a kilt with the AF tartan worn twice on formal occasions - once at a civilian event, and the other at a CAP event. Both looked really great, and I certainly wasn't going to be the party-pooper telling someone they weren't supposed to be wearing them, particularly at the CAP event. [Lancer knows who I'm talking about.]

The member you mention has worn his kilt since I have known him.  It's now a tradition I guess.

I'm not 100% sure if that's an AF tartan, or his family's.  Either way, he doesn't wear it with a CAP uniform.  In his case, it would constitute civilian attire.  Clergy shirt and a dinner jacket with Air Force medals/master aircrew wings (he's a retired SMSgt), which is-I believe-allowed.

He's been doing it the 20 years I've known him, and Pops in drag has become a MIWG/GLR-N tradition.

OK, looked at some of Lancer's pix on FB, and see what you're talking about.

[Gunner C]

Does anybody know if USAF allows people, other than their pipe band, to wear a kilt?  If they don't, then we probably won't either.

No.

[Hawk200]

I must say I'm a little amazed at how many people seem to want to wear it with a uniform, or think it's OK.

It's especially disconcerting how many people think we have too many different uniforms, but think a kilt variation is acceptable? What results in this line of thinking? Is it not OK to have loads of uniforms, unless they draw a great deal of attention? Granted, I haven't tracked how many think it's acceptable compare to the ones that think a kilt is fine, but still.

From CAPM 39-1: "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear"

What more needs to be said?

[davedove]

Kilt with CAP uniform: NO

Yeah, the USAF Pipe and Drum Band wears them, but all services have distinctive band uniforms that the line troops cannot wear.

I completely agree.  A kilt is not an approved uniform item in CAP, so don't wear it as part of a uniform.

Alternative: wear your own (would be considered civilian attire) it's customary to wear them with a military-style jacket: we had one guy who actually wore his kilt-ensemble to a CAP dining-in. 

The Prince Charlie jacket is based on the military jackets of the 19th century and has a very military feel to it.  It has the same basic cut as the mess jackets.  Note:  you are not authorized to wear your CAP medals on civilian attire, but you can wear any military medals you have earned.

Two 'musts:'

1. Actually BE of Scottish descent.

2. Be able to pull-off wearing it ( ! )

Not true, you don't have to be a cowboy to wear boots and you don't have to be Scottish to wear a kilt.

I do have to agree about being able to pull it off.  You have to have a certain level of confidence to wear a kilt.

[O-Rex]

Not true, you don't have to be a cowboy to wear boots and you don't have to be Scottish to wear a kilt.

I have a pair of cowboy boots I wear on occasion, but I leave my riding chaps at home...

[Rob Sherlin]

  The Scots aren't the only ones who wear kilts, as there are Irish, and Welsh tartans too. From what I am seeing, you CAN probably wear one with the Mess uniform and not break CAPM 39-1 regs, if you just take off the boullion, shoulder boards and such, that affiliate the uniform with CAP. I don't know about wearing the uniforms to milatary or CAP events other than having permission to (people say it's not allowed, but how do you explain the photos of people wearing kilts (who are not in the "band") at military events.
  It does look good with the mess uniform, and if you have one, it beats going and spending another $300 and up on a "Prince Charlie" or"Argyle" jacket.

[D2SK]

  It does look good with the mess uniform, and if you have one, it beats going and spending another $300 and up on a "Prince Charlie" or"Argyle" jacket.

If you are going to wear a plaid skirt, you might as well go all out and get the matching jacket so you'll have  the complete outfit.

[Rob Sherlin]

  It's not a SKIRT!!!!! Come to the "Highland Games" and make and comment like that, and you might be tossed like the "caper". It's just not right to keep insulting the "wearing of kilts", or "the honor of" like that! And whether you like it or not, it has been part of every military branch, every state (even a lot of counties have their own tartan), and has, and is still worn by a lot of great men. To those of us who are proud to wear them, and what it means, it's very offensive!
  It's like calling you a "Nazi", or "Kraut" because of your heritage! It just so happens there has been a lot of dedication, and "spilling of blood" for America, by people who wear kilts (in battle yet), and were some of the toughest SOB's you would ever want to encounter! A lot of organizations in America recognize this and adapted to it (Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or not), and wear them (not only military, but state and local police, etc.)
  So, please, don't call them skirts! Don't call them dresses! Be respectful!!!

[D2SK]

  It's not a SKIRT!!!!! So, please, don't call them skirts! Don't call them dresses! Be respectful!!!

Rob,

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=kilt

According to Princeton University, it is a skirt.

(n) kilt (a knee-length pleated tartan skirt worn by men as part of the traditional dress in the Highlands of northern Scotland)

And, for what it's worth, calling a a skirt-like garment as skirt is not akin to calling a person of German descent a nazi.  One is a racial epitaph, the other is not.         However, with that being said, some of my German ancestors were, regrettably, nazis.  That being said, I'm not complaining or even the least bit offended every time the term "uniform nazi" is thrown out around here.

[Rob Sherlin]

Never the less where you got your info......Trust me!....It's dissrespectful!!!!!

I don't care what Princeton University calls it!!!

Being called "Nazi" is the same thing!!! It was a matter of honor, choice, and wearing the uniform! Just because you're German, doesn't make you a "Nazi", and if you take offense of being called one, than you somewhat know how it feels! At that time, it was what you believed in, joined, and honored that made you so ! It's the same thing with kilts, and even people who are not from a "kilt wearing" heritage are pround to wear them for what their organization is and stands for!

  Look! All I'm asking is that you call them "kilts", instead of skirts, dresses, etc!

[Major Lord]

I think anyone trying to prevent us from wearing our kilts with Mess Dress is anti-Celtic racist, intent on undermining our Druidic way of life. The warrior tradition of the Scots has won for us the eternal rights to wear the kilt in the same way as Orthodox Jews have a right to wear the Yarmulkha. (Besides, sometimes an an Officer just wants to feel...pretty! ) Oh yeah, the chicks dig it! If you want to insult a Scot to his face over wearing a kilt, be prepared to have a yard of Cleighmore thrust through your entrails, a Skein Dugh up your nose, or a Caber tossed in your general direction. ( Powerful, but not accurate) The Kilt is a representation of his entire family lineage, and its much worse than insulting someones mother.

Major Lord
Of the Clanranald

[D2SK]

Never the less where you got your info......Trust me!....It's dissrespectful!!!!!

I don't care what Princeton University calls it!!!

Being called "Nazi" is the same thing!!! It was a matter of honor, choice, and wearing the uniform! Just because you're German, doesn't make you a "Nazi", and if you take offense of being called one, than you somewhat know how it feels! At that time, it was what you believed in, joined, and honored that made you so ! It's the same thing with kilts, and even people who are not from a "kilt wearing" heritage are pround to wear them for what their organization is and stands for!

  Look! All I'm asking is that you call them "kilts", instead of skirts, dresses, etc!

Rob.  "Our" organization doesn't authorize kilts for wear with the CAP uniform.  Our organization has never authorized one, nor has it ever been associated with one, etc.  Therefore, please don't try to find a way around the rules to wear one with your CAP uniform.  Please don't get your skirt kilt up in a bunch over this.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Major Lord.....

 Indeed the ladies love them!!! I think there's just a big uneducated response about kilts, Celtic pride, the influence and effort our ancestors put into wars for freedom, the accomplishments, and the many other things which made a lot of American organizations recognize the wearing of the kilt, and adapt it as an honor to wear them. I could go a lot deeper into Celtic history, but I want to stay focused on the kilt for the post.

[Rob Sherlin]

D2SK

  Yes, I know this (your last post), and I would not wear a kilt with a CAP uniform (If I take everything off the mess dress that associates me with CAP (much like wearing woodland camo pants, a black t-shirt, and boots) then there should be no problem). The original post was to find out who has worn them in a CAP or military wedding or special function. Maybe we should try to press for a CAP tartan if believed in.
  Maybe we can make special liederhosen for you!

[notaNCO forever]

 I really don't think it is worth all the effort to get a kilt, or tartan, authorized for wear for a total of probably five people in the entire organization to be able to wear them.

[isuhawkeye]

don't forget to remove the buttons.  they are specific

[Hawk200]

D2SK

  Yes, I know this (your last post), and I would not wear a kilt with a CAP uniform (If I take everything off the mess dress that associates me with CAP (much like wearing woodland camo pants, a black t-shirt, and boots) then there should be no problem). The original post was to find out who has worn them in a CAP or military wedding or special function. Maybe we should try to press for a CAP tartan if believed in.
  Maybe we can make special liederhosen for you!

Rob, it's time to add D2SK to your ignore list. It's obvious that he's attempting to be inflammatory. Ignore it, and address the original post.

[ColonelJack]

And, for what it's worth, calling a a skirt-like garment as skirt is not akin to calling a person of German descent a nazi.  One is a racial epitaph, the other is not.     

Epithet, not epitaph.  (Though in some circles, using the epithet could get you an epitaph.)

However, with that being said, some of my German ancestors were, regrettably, nazis.  That being said, I'm not complaining or even the least bit offended every time the term "uniform nazi" is thrown out around here.

Same here on both counts.  In fact, a distant cousin was one of the biggest of the Nazis (in more ways than one).  The term doesn't bother me either.

Jack

[Rob Sherlin]

Hawk and NCO,

Agreed!...Thanks for leveling me out and putting me back on track guys!

[Cecil DP]

I recall when I moved back to Massachusetts in the early 80's the Broctkon Cadet Squadron had a Bagpipe band which marched in CAP uniforms with Kilts. Even the future Wing Commander wa a member of it.

[Earhart1971]

..., or the Air Force tartan since it's basically an Air Force Mess uniform?

There is no Air Force Mess uniform that includes a kilt. One of the Air Force bands wears a uniform that includes a kilt and is very fancy, but it is not a uniform that everyone in the Air Force can wear.

There's no paralell to draw with Civil Air Patrol. We don't even have an official band.

Bagpipe Band you bypass 39-1, The Air Force would probably be proud to have another Bagpipe Band to call on.
You can do anything if you look and sound good. You could even attend the Edinbourgh Tatoo if you are good enought. CAP Band with a great Drum Major in the Bearskin, would really be an asset to the National Program.

[Rob Sherlin]

Now that sounds like a plan!!!  Who else here plays the pipes? Or drum?

[Hawk200]

..., or the Air Force tartan since it's basically an Air Force Mess uniform?

There is no Air Force Mess uniform that includes a kilt. One of the Air Force bands wears a uniform that includes a kilt and is very fancy, but it is not a uniform that everyone in the Air Force can wear.

There's no paralell to draw with Civil Air Patrol. We don't even have an official band.

Bagpipe Band you bypass 39-1, The Air Force would probably be proud to have another Bagpipe Band to call on.
You can do anything if you look and sound good. You could even attend the Edinbourgh Tatoo if you are good enought. CAP Band with a great Drum Major in the Bearskin, would really be an asset to the National Program.

I disagree on "bypassing" 39-1. That kind of thought doesn't have any place here. What would need to be done is either a manual specific to the band that includes special uniforms, or a supplement to 39-1 covering the Band uniform only.

I agree that it would be cool to have CAP represented by a pipe band. But it needs to be done the right way.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Good point!.....Members allready have a problem with uniforms and equipment as it is, as cost goes. Plus, a set of pipes is going to cost you quite a bit (more than a dress uniform). Unless a local unit is formed, and willing to travel Nationaly, I don't think it's going to happen........But it would be cool to have a CAP tartan (kilt), considering what CAP has done in the past.