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CAP is not the military

Started by flyguy06, April 18, 2006, 08:24:06 AM

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Earhart1971

Quote from: lordmonar on April 19, 2006, 02:05:33 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:08:33 AM
Quote from: Becks on April 19, 2006, 05:59:24 AM
We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just don't hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.

Its been tried, there have been some job postings for "Fund Raiser" types at National HQ in the past.

It all appeared to fall in a black hole, I have heard nothing about any major contributions.

It may be hard to fund raise at National HQ, now at the local level, if you can point to a Flight of Cadets and get the right rich person, they have been known to donate.

Naples Squadron has a building fully paid for by donors, so does Lake County Squadron.

On the National Level, I think it would work better just to have someone in Washington D.C. that goes to the Congress at Budget Time and lobbies
for CAP.  I think this has been done in the past, to maintain the budget as is.

The 10%.


Where exactly does this "10% saving" come from?  When you save federal money it is just spent elsewhere.  Those billions you say we save is from the fact that the military did NOT BUY the airframes in the first place.  It is a virtual savings not a real money in the bank gathering interest savings.

Here I will propose a solution.....why don't we (CAP) use some of our corporate funds and hire some professional fundraiser to gather the needed funding from private sources?  The only problem with this solution is that we will have to take real money from some of our programs to support it.

10%

The 500 million saved is spent elsewhere, and yes it is virtual, but the money saved is REAL!

If you don't have to fire up a H-60, or a C-130 to fly search missions, you can fly other Air Force Missions, and Half a Billion buys a lot of other hours on Air Force Aircraft. ITS AS REAL AS THE MONEY in your WALLET.

I think you misunderstood the 10%, what I meant is IF, CAP saves the Government Half a Billion or 500 million per year in Search Cost, why not pay CAP a 10% bonus for doing so? That would be 50 Million Dollars a year.

Now if I were at National HQ I would sure calculate the exact figure every year and promote that figure in congress.

And my question again, spread across the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of Federal Budget, I could find money.

Where I would look, or have Congressman look is:

Youth Programs that obviously do not work

Anti Drug Programs that may not work

Anti Gang Programs

Education Programs

Volunteer Funding from the Fed and Homeland Security Funds.

out of all that could we find money.

Now lets take a trip in the time machine, if we got more money what would the goals be?

A. Cadet Program - increase the Middle School Program

B. Increase Recruiting - Cadets - Goal 100,000 Cadets in the next few years.

C. Cadets and a successful Cadet program - Attracts x- Cadets and more Seniors back in the Program.

D. Assets - will attract all types of members.

I would set a long term goal of having half a million members, that equals a Lot of Votes, and political clout.

ABOUT NATIONAL HQ FUND Raising.

I have seen job postings for National Fund Raiser or  Sponsor Development, at Maxwell.

Its a black hole, I have heard nothing since, anybody heard anything more?

On the National Level, I think it would work better just to have someone in Washington D.C. that goes to the Congressmen and women and lobbies them.








lordmonar

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
The 500 million saved is spent elsewhere, and yes it is virtual, but the money saved is REAL!

No...the 500$M we saved the Air Force is only the operating cost of the nonexistent fleet of air craft needed to fly homeland SAR missions.  It's not like the Air Force has the $500M sitting in a bank instead of paying gas bills.  You cannot get 10% of money that does not exist.  To give us the $50M funding the Air Force would have to cut $50M from some other project, mission, benefit or Air Frame that actually need to field. 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM

If you don't have to fire up a H-60, or a C-130 to fly search missions, you can fly other Air Force Missions, and Half a Billion buys a lot of other hours on Air Force Aircraft. ITS AS REAL AS THE MONEY in your WALLET.

Again....the $500M was never allocated....it cannot be diverted to anything...because it never existed.  It is only a dollar figure estimate of the contribution that CAP gives to the Air Force.  There is REAL SAVINGS that can be used for other purposes.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
I think you misunderstood the 10%, what I meant is IF, CAP saves the Government Half a Billion or 500 million per year in Search Cost, why not pay CAP a 10% bonus for doing so? That would be 50 Million Dollars a year.

Because the Government is already getting that saving by paying CAP $31.5M why would they pay more for the same service?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
Where I would look, or have Congressman look is:

Youth Programs that obviously do not work

Anti Drug Programs that may not work

Anti Gang Programs

Education Programs

Volunteer Funding from the Fed and Homeland Security Funds.

out of all that could we find money.

So....you will kill other useful programs because you need $50M?  Maybe these programs would work better if they had more money too?  Do you see where I am going with this?

Everyone has their pet project that is "essential" to the country and their districts.....but of course....everyones essential project is just another name for pork.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
Now lets take a trip in the time machine, if we got more money what would the goals be?

A. Cadet Program - increase the Middle School Program

B. Increase Recruiting - Cadets - Goal 100,000 Cadets in the next few years.

C. Cadets and a successful Cadet program - Attracts x- Cadets and more Seniors back in the Program.

That's nice and all.....however......you just spent all that money that was supposed to go to Emergency Services on your cadet program!

You cannot say....hay! We do great Emergency Service we save you $500M from the Defense Budget every year!  Give us $50M more and we can give you an even bigger savings by spending it on improving cadet programs for an age group that cannot do ES missions, and recruiting more cadet (who also cannot do ES missions) and getting more members to create and run this really great Cadet Program (who cannot do ES missions).

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
D. Assets - will attract all types of members.

What sort of assets are we talking about?  More trucks?  I read somewhere that CAP has over 1000 trucks, vans , and utility vehicles!  That is something like 200 per Wing!

If we bought more Air Planes how would that make us more able to fly our ES mission?  Have we been missing missions because there were no aircraft available for the search?  If we don't NEED the airframes for the mission then we don't need them. 

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Earhart1971

Capt Harris:

I read through your replies.

Question: Your are a member of Civil Air Patrol, Why would you  WORRY ahead of time about another program being cut, to give money to CAP?

Why would you be overtly concerned about such a prospect?

I believe there are probably lots of programs that PRODUCE no tangible Benefits, CAP produces Tangible Benefits to the public good.

Its not in our power to cut, its in the Hands of the House Appropriations Committee, and it would be a function of how well we can present CAP to the Congress.  The National Commander has laid some ground work in that area.
<p>
The programs that don't work are cut all the time, so I feel your loyalty is a little misguided, why not be a proponent of CAP, the Organization you are part of?
<p>
And the Air Force is not giving us the money, the CAP is getting the money from Congress.
<p>
The Air Force is the prime beneficiary of our cost effective search program.
<p>
Also, you asked why would the Government Pay More for the same service?
<p>
The Congress and the Representatives there, probably have never been made aware, of what we do, and how much we save them.
<p>
Low expectations on the part of CAP members, produce no growth, lets change the mind set.
<p>
Would you like CAP to be a rather small group of 50,000 spread over 50 states, thats about 1000 per state, or would you like to see the program spread and grow?
<p>
Frankly, I don't worry about other programs for youth, CAP, is the answer to Gangs, Drugs, School Discipline (Fla Wing has an Agressive Middle School CAP Cadet Program).
<p>
I have seen the majic of the Cadet Program first hand.





lordmonar

Earhardt1971.

The only reason why I responded in the first place was that you dissed NCO and that you blamed CAP's lack of money on the Air Force.

Bottom line is that there is no money to give to CAP without cutting something else.

The other point I was making was that you tout the ES mission success but want money for the CP mission.  If you want more money for CP you have to show CP successes and/or show how more money in that area would benefit the community.

Finally, there are other national level youth organizations that raise much larger budges then CAP's just from fund raising efforts.  If we want a better program with more people in it then we need to do a better recruiting and fund raising effort.....NOT ask congress to just give us more money and hope that it fixes the problem.

I love CAP.  I would like to see 200+ member squadrons and 30-40 squadrons per wing.  We can have this, with out raising our budget!  All we need to do is recruit, train and keep the membership.   This does not require any extra money.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Earhart1971

Public Fund raising will not work, the way it works for the Boy Scouts, because of public perception of CAP and its association with the Government.

Besides its a rare  CAP member that wants to work in CAP, and then on top of that, raise funds to operate with.

Run a Squadron, comply with all the regs, and spend the extra spare time raising funds to operate, I just don't see it happening.

And you raise the point on Search vs Cadet Program.

Cadet Program and SAR are on equal footing with me, but the Cadet Program is the darling of the Program and always will be, WHY?, the public perception is the key, we sell what sells.

And you cannot have a 200 person squadrons on a ZERO Budget, which is what most Squadrons run on.  I would be interested if any 200 member Squadron exists, beyond a JROTC unit, and without paid personnel to run it like the JROTC.


The Middle School Squadrons in Florida, are running on a budget of about 50,000 to 60,000 per year funded by Grants and the School Board, and there are some that have 50 to 100 Cadets, now that is one way to build membership.





BillB

.........making note to give Capt Harris a failing grade in math.....1000 vehicles divided by 52 Wings equals 19 vehicles per Wing, not 200. Otherwise i agree 101%
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

lordmonar

Quote from: BillB on April 22, 2006, 09:58:25 AM
.........making note to give Capt Harris a failing grade in math.....1000 vehicles divided by 52 Wings equals 19 vehicles per Wing, not 200. Otherwise i agree 101%

One extra zero and you crucify me! ::)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AM
Public Fund raising will not work, the way it works for the Boy Scouts, because of public perception of CAP and its association with the Government.

What have you done to help change that perception?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMBesides its a rare  CAP member that wants to work in CAP, and then on top of that, raise funds to operate with.

Almost everyone in my squadron understands our budget and is willing to do what it takes to maintain an income stream to match our expenses. The particular method my senior squadron uses is annual squadron dues. I know this isn't as practical for units with cadets, but there are other ways for them to raise funds. My last unit, a composite squadron, had significant income from recycling. Cadets collect the cans and botles, and a senior takes them to the recycle center and turns them in for money, which them goes in the squadron bank account. We made about $300 a year that way.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMRun a Squadron, comply with all the regs, and spend the extra spare time raising funds to operate, I just don't see it happening.

Happens all the time in units that have a firm grasp of reality. It just needs to be sold right to the membership.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMAnd you raise the point on Search vs Cadet Program.

Cadet Program and SAR are on equal footing with me, but the Cadet Program is the darling of the Program and always will be, WHY?, the public perception is the key, we sell what sells.

And you cannot have a 200 person squadrons on a ZERO Budget, which is what most Squadrons run on.  I would be interested if any 200 member Squadron exists, beyond a JROTC unit, and without paid personnel to run it like the JROTC.

There used to be a 150 member unit in my group, with 75 or 80 active cadets that got along just fine at that level. Membership levels decreased after some internal problems, but none of it was related to financial issues.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMThe Middle School Squadrons in Florida, are running on a budget of about 50,000 to 60,000 per year funded by Grants and the School Board, and there are some that have 50 to 100 Cadets, now that is one way to build membership.

What have you done to try and get a program like that in your local area?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Earhart1971

#48
Your 1st Point:"What have you done to help change that perception?"

It unrealistic to try and change a fact " we are a Auxillary of the United States Air Force" and that hurts our fund raising, sorry its just a fact of life for CAP, there has not been a successful national effort to raise funds for CAP.

Your Second Point: On Squadrons doing Car Washes: I am not talking about small time fund raising, everybody has been doing such things for years.

Your Third Point: Again, everybody does, things like Car Washes, and such.

Your Fourth Point: What I am doing?  Actually, I promoting the School Program and this Sheriff Candidate: www.electBillArmstrong.org
He wants to sponsor a Squadron.

iowacap

Everyone is talking about how they cut the budget and that and government should toss money their direction. Well for one it takes a lot of hard work and dedication and talking with the government and A LOT of time to show them why they should spend the money, In our state we have done just that but it all comes with a price from us volunteers here is a link to an article on capblog about it and will give you an idea. http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2006/04/iowa_ag_shows_c.html This should give you an idea on what the hard work and working with the government will give you and encourage other wings to follow suit or try to do simular things as it will tell you in the aritcles and comments!