Jump Pilot

[Trung Si Ma]

Nin -

My experiences from the jump side are old (I only have 6 civilian jumps - all in the 80's) and of the three places that I jumped (Raeford, NC; someplace in IL not to far from St Louis; and someplace in MI near Detroit) were one good (St Louis), and two questionable, very questionable.  The place outside St Louis was very professional and if I lived in that area, I'd be trying to fly with them now - if they're still in business.

The three places that I looked at to fly 182's were in three different states and within the last year and all of them were scary from the A/C side of things.  But I wasn't looking for the open door, I was looking at the condition of the A/C, the MX history, and the attitude of the people in charge.  One of them bragged of using MOGAS in his 182s, but showed me the door when I asked him about the STC so I could get one also.

I don't doubt that there are good places to go fly at, but my personal experience is 1:5 good vs bad.

[NIN]

My experiences from the jump side are old (I only have 6 civilian jumps - all in the 80's) and of the three places that I jumped (Raeford, NC; someplace in IL not to far from St Louis; and someplace in MI near Detroit) were one good (St Louis), and two questionable, very questionable.  The place outside St Louis was very professional and if I lived in that area, I'd be trying to fly with them now - if they're still in business.

Oh, the 1980s and even into the early 90s were still mighty "bandit" for most commercial DZ ops.  The Perris Twin Otter crash in, uh, 1993, I think, was a serious wakeup for the industry. (The advent of tandem parachuting, coupled with things like Point Break and ESPN's X-games sort of formed a "perfect storm" for public interest in skydiving around this time, too..)  The FAA really got serious about ops surveillance at DZs at that point.

I'd be curious which place in Michigan you went to.   Raeford had a good rep thru the 90s (including when it was the Golden Knight's home DZ), but I'd be really amazed if you had any kind of an issue with Gene Paul Thacker's operation there even in the 80s.  The guy who ran the place I started at (outside of Detroit) was good friends with Gene Paul and they traded equipment, airplanes, instructors, ideas, etc, for years from what I understand and everybody I knew who'd jumped there spoke highly of the operation.

The three places that I looked at to fly 182's were in three different states and within the last year and all of them were scary from the A/C side of things.  But I wasn't looking for the open door, I was looking at the condition of the A/C, the MX history, and the attitude of the people in charge.  One of them bragged of using MOGAS in his 182s, but showed me the door when I asked him about the STC so I could get one also.

I don't doubt that there are good places to go fly at, but my personal experience is 1:5 good vs bad.

I'm not surprised what you're saying, but either my standards are slipping, or what you expect out of a place that has to run a business with airplanes is a LOT higher than mine.   I mean, I don't expect aircraft that are factory-fresh, great paint and over-maintained like some of the military aircraft I've worked on, but they should keep from killing you and 4 of your buddies.  I have come to understand the business side of skydiving a whole bunch more over the last year (helping research the potential for a new airplane, lease vs. purchase, load factors, etc, and the cost of running a student operation alongside the main DZ operation) and it amazes me that *anybody* but the fuel suppliers and the mechanics can earn a living doing this.   In watching our owner-operator do maintenance on his aircraft, I understand even better how thin the margins really are (except if you're the parts supplier).  I mean, I felt a serious "ouch" in my own wallet area when he mentioned that he had to put new brakes, wheels and tires on the Otter and that all told it cost him about $10,000... (I think he swapped the Goodyears for Clevelands, or the other way around), and that one of the reasons he lands the Otter in the grass alongside the runway is that it saves his brakes and tires.   If he can get a few dozen more take offs and landings out of a set of tires or brakes and help keep the cost of operations down a little, I say "go for it." Otherwise, it gets passed along to the DZ and thence to the jumpers...

Eventually, sure, you have to maintain the aircraft to the standards.  But its a question of what is necessary to be safe and what is potentially ok to "defer" after awhile.

PM me that DZ if you think of it. If its the one I think it is, well, they're closed now and they're one of the places that I jumped at once and never returned.

[Flying Pig]

That Perris DZ crash was terrible.  I was there that day as a kid.  My dad and I used to go and watch the jumpers there.

[a2capt]

As I read this thread .. the bit about the key being swiped as a ritual?

Are you freaking kidding me?

I can't say that the thought of winging over and going after that sucker wouldn't come into my mind. Thats just a really pathetic unprofessional, unsafe thing to do.

Granted, most Cessna keys are infact way over on the other side .. and .. most jump planes I have ever seen also look like gutted wrecks and the door that is removed is on the other side..

Infact, most might be untrue. I can't recall seeing one that wasn't a gutted hulk.

Everything that comes out, is out. Plastics, un-needed harnesses, insulation, headliners, etc. Gone.

[Climbnsink]

As I read this thread .. the bit about the key being swiped as a ritual?

Are you freaking kidding me?

I can't say that the thought of winging over and going after that sucker wouldn't come into my mind. Thats just a really pathetic unprofessional, unsafe thing to do.

Granted, most Cessna keys are infact way over on the other side .. and .. most jump planes I have ever seen also look like gutted wrecks and the door that is removed is on the other side..

Infact, most might be untrue. I can't recall seeing one that wasn't a gutted hulk.

Everything that comes out, is out. Plastics, un-needed harnesses, insulation, headliners, etc. Gone.

Harnesses are left in and used these days.  Never used seatbelts(in the back) until the aforementioned Perris crash.   That has changed for the better.  As for taking the key- it was certainly done in the old days but I'm pretty sure it's just legend now.  Anyway what's the big deal 10K over an airport?   Of course I've heard of pilots carrying a spare key as well. 

[N Harmon]

Anyway what's the big deal 10K over an airport?

Well, by removing the key, you have pretty much forced the pilot into an emergency landing. Like a real forced landing.

Should the pilot try not to draw attention and just hope he/she can make a quiet descent and land with enough speed to taxi off of the runway? Or should the pilot do the sensible thing and declare an emergency? If it were a loved one of mine in the pilot's seat, I would expect him/her to do everything possible to come home safely. Nobody should risk their lives to cover up someone else's prank.

Say the pilot lands safely, like he/she should in all likelihood. Does he/she make a report to the FAA as required? Chances are he/she will probably have to explain why the key left the airplane. If not in the report, then certainly in a follow up. Nobody should risk their ticket to cover up someone else's prank.

What happens if the pilot stalls the aircraft trying to avoid a collision with that herd of cattle now on the runway, and crashes? The investigation is certainly going to reveal that the key was missing. Do you think the investigators, upon finding out why, are going to shrug it off as "just a joke"?

[Climbnsink]

FYI there is never a need to notify the FAA.  Perhaps you should reread Part 830.  As for having the key stolen- the OP has been warned subtly and not subtly that flying jumpers entails certain risks.  That doesn't justify taking the key but really if there is a commercial pilot that can't land an engine out from 10k over an airport... well that pilot needs at least a 709 ride anyway.

[N Harmon]

FYI there is never a need to notify the FAA.  Perhaps you should reread Part 830.  As for having the key stolen- the OP has been warned subtly and not subtly that flying jumpers entails certain risks.  That doesn't justify taking the key but really if there is a commercial pilot that can't land an engine out from 10k over an airport... well that pilot needs at least a 709 ride anyway.

Wow. Just wow.

[NIN]

Well, by removing the key, you have pretty much forced the pilot into an emergency landing. Like a real forced landing.

Well, one could say the same thing about every dude flying a glider when they pull the cable release handle.

I realize that its not the same thing (ie. the pilot didn't ascend to altitude with the intent to be a glider...), but still.

Should the pilot try not to draw attention and just hope he/she can make a quiet descent and land with enough speed to taxi off of the runway? Or should the pilot do the sensible thing and declare an emergency? If it were a loved one of mine in the pilot's seat, I would expect him/her to do everything possible to come home safely. Nobody should risk their lives to cover up someone else's prank.

Say the pilot lands safely, like he/she should in all likelihood. Does he/she make a report to the FAA as required? Chances are he/she will probably have to explain why the key left the airplane. If not in the report, then certainly in a follow up. Nobody should risk their ticket to cover up someone else's prank.

What happens if the pilot stalls the aircraft trying to avoid a collision with that herd of cattle now on the runway, and crashes? The investigation is certainly going to reveal that the key was missing. Do you think the investigators, upon finding out why, are going to shrug it off as "just a joke"?

Consider the fact that the last time I heard about something like this was probably 12 or 14 years ago, and who knows when such an incident actually occured prior to that (lets think: The last time the Golden Knights were regularly doing 4-way out of Cessnas was probably before some of our s'members here were even born), my guess is that: a) it hasn't occurred in 20+ years, at the very least; b) it was never very widespread; c) when it did happen, the aviators involved were skilled enough not to bend the plane on arrival.

For all I know, the story is apocryphal (but I kinda doubt it, as its been restated a number of times from people in different corners of the sport, so while its an "oral history" kind of thing, its not like the guy in Massachusetts heard it from the same guy I heard it from in Michigan), so take it for what its worth.

Besides, as I said, the key on a 182 is located all the way on the far left of the panel.  If you're inattentive enough on jumprun that someone can reach totally around you and grab the key out of the ignition, maybe you should fly cargo instead?  (also, another trick, although generally accidental, is knocking the fuel selector on the floor to "off."  I think it would be 10x easier, although about 10x more dangerous, to just flip the selector...  Would suck mightily for all concerned to run the float bowl dry just about the time you're turning downwind to base and you're bit wide and a bit low...)

Most turbine jumpships that I'm familiar with don't even have a key....

[PHall]

Most turbine jumpships that I'm familiar with don't even have a key....

Oh there's a key, the door key.

[Flying Pig]

Its idiotic to think that someone would, as some sort of right of passage, attempt to take your key and jump with it, causing you to make a power off landing.

I would equate that to someone taking the bullets out of a rookie cops gun on his first day just to see if he notices.  Id be knocking someones teeth out either way.  Quite honestly, every DZ I have ever been to, the jumpers were a different breed, but safety seemed to be the one thing nobody screwed with.