NTSB Releases Factual Report of Nevada CAP Crash

[sardak]

The NTSB has released the factual report of last year's crash in Nevada that killed Colonels Ed Lewis and Dion DeCamp.
SEA08FA023

Mike

[scooter]

How sad, this should not have happened!

[Pumbaa]

Drinking?

[NIN]

No, frequently there is alcohol found in the liver & muscles that is a by-product of decomposition (someone who is a medical professional can probably set my terminology straight)..   Depending on how long after death the autopsy is performed, they can find amounts of what amounts to alcohol.

Interesting to note that the NTSB's report still does not suggest a cause for the CFIT.

EDIT: Never mind. its the "Factual" not "Final" report.

[Short Field]

An uncalled for, disrespectful, and uninformed comment.  What the report found was normal post-mortem byproducts.  I can't speak to the Benedril but considering it was in the liver, it seems to have been in the body for a while.  

[Pumbaa]

How is what I posted an uninformed comment?  It was a valid point and question. The report said ethanol was found in the liver and muscles... I asked a one word question.  I found it to be odd and wanted clarification.  The left seat had a positive where the right did not.. 

NIN did a good job explaining what can happen.

I did not say, oh look the left seat was drunk!  I asked if the results confirmed drinking.

Jesus this place is getting so PC or whatever, you can't even ask an honest question without getting jumped on.  Welcome to CAP. 

[Short Field]

It is not matter of being PC but of respect.  A respectful question would have been to ask where the ethanol came from - not ask if he had been drinking.  It took me less than an minute to find the answer on the internet.

Sore subject as I worked for Col DeCamp and had the utmost respect for his professionalism and leadership.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Easy, Short Field.  The guy asked a simple question.  I realize that these are folks you know, and you may be emotionally connected, but there was no cause to jump down his throat.

[flyerthom]

Please be careful regarding speculations. Friends, colleagues and wing members of both people post here. Surviving family members lurk here. What isn't meant to be hurtful can be.

Also VGT has been in the news a lot this year for some tragic incidents.  Those who would like to adversely change the airport are actively searching for information.   Two senior squadrons and a cadet squadron actively use VGT. Please keep all of our CAP folks in mind.

Thank You in advance.

[CAPLAW]

Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Criticism of the government and advocation of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in "fair" political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are often made between speech and other acts, such as flag desecration, which may have symbolic significance

[Eeyore]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Terms of Service for this site say that there are certain rules to follow and you can't say whatever you want if it violates them.

[SarDragon]

Has this thread been sufficiently hijacked that it should be shut off? 

[Pumbaa]

All because a legit question was asked, due to something in the NTSB report?  Tell me where was my question was out of line?  Tell me... where did my question violated TOS?

This is a DISCUSSION forum.  We are suppose to discuss.  Asking if the toxicology report points to alcohol consumption is a violation of TOS?  Since when are we supposed to be afraid to ask what could be a potentially tough question?

One word.. my question was simply ONE word, and I get jumped on.

Many other people AND THE PRESS will pickup on the comment that alcohol was found in the liver & muscles in the left seat blood toxicology and not in the right seat... They will ask the same question. NIN did an outstanding job replying to it, with a brief explanation of what happens on decomposition.  So in fact, now if the question comes up in the "real world", an answer... NINs answer... can be given and cleared right away. Thus the "reputation" of these honorable men is protected.  CAP comes out looking as professionals.

We can't ask questions because they are dead?  Excuse me... we are suppose to be professionals, Professions are supposed to look at things, ask question to become informed, learn from mistakes, etc...  this forum is where you discuss all things CAP, SAR etc.. I came here to learn from others.

We SHOULD be discussing the report, analyzing it, LEARNING how to interpret it, DISCUSS the findings and ASK ALL questions. All because we are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS!

If I am unsure of something I ASK, and that is what I did!

It seems that others think that is wrong, because of sensibilities and emotion?  Well excuse me!! That is not how a professional works.  Guess what guys, our job is to deal with the fact of death.

Apparently, it seems that CAP has become some sort of a baby sitter club rather than a group of professionals who are seeking to do the best job they can, hell they would rather fight about uniforms.  Go join the local ladies tea of you want to be in a club.

I was aircrew in a SAR for a downed helo in NY a few weeks back, our ground crew, located the wreckage that was spotted from the air in the treeline.  Later, our group commander was asked question by the press and guess what question #2 was?  WAS HE DRINKING!?  And this was WITHOUT a report stating that alcohol found in the liver & muscles.  I am sure the wife of this man would like to protect her husbands memory, not by avoiding the question but ANSWERING it.  (BTW he told the reporter to go to wing for answers) And no he was not drinking a downdraft took the R-22 and pushed it straight down into the ridge.

If you want to be all sensitive go join the boy scouts or the brownies.

The fact of the matter is, by nature CAP, in terms of the SAR program we deal with life and death.  We face death head on.  Folks we are sometimes the first ones to the site and see the dead bodies.... This is not for the squeamish, this is not for those who want to avoid the 'hard' questions or the facts that possibly might not like!

I am not a lawyer.. Lawyers never ask a question where they won't like the answer.  I ask to learn, even if I may not like the answer.

Grow up people, be professionals, or go join the boy scouts and sing "Kumbaya" and tie knots.  When you get lost in the woods the REAL CAP will come and find you.

[lordmonar]

Grow up people, be professionals, or go join the boy scouts and sing "Kumbaya" and tie knots.  When you get lost in the woods the REAL CAP will come and find you.

One could say the same to you.

Let's just call this one done and move on.