Buying a Radio

[CAP.is.1337]

I want to ask you'll what is the best reliable, compliant, handheld VHF radio to get for CAP. I know that radios must be authorized before use. If I get a HAM license, I want to buy a radio I can use for CAP as well.

I have checked on the communications site, and the Equipment Compliance Report is confusing for me.
Can you'll give your recommendations for a CAP-compatible handheld radio and where to buy, or instructions on the meanings of WideBand, NarrowBand, and P-25?

Edit:
After searching, and reading about P-25, it seems that the only "portable" radios on the list that are fully compliant are:

Code Select Expand


Kenwood TK-5210
Kenwood TK-5210
E.F. Johnson 5100 Series
Motorola    Astro Saber
Motorola  XTS-3000
Motorola  XTS-3500
Motorola  XTS-5000
Relm DPH
Icom IC-F70DS/DT (D Models Only)
M/A COM P7100 IP
Tait TP-9100

Can anyone expound on these?

[MIKE]

http://cap.rradio.biz/

I'm not sure it is really worth it to spend this kind of money on CAP COMM gear.  The costs involved have taken a lot of members off the air.  You can no longer acquire a radio for $150 new and expect to use it for CAP unfortunately.

Figure out if you really need it... If you really need it, can one be provided for you to use instead?

[Chris Jacobs]

I understand that the p-25 radios are better suited to what we are doing but why must it be a requirement.  I was told that it came down from the defense department.  Is this true.  And if it is why is no one trying to get a break for CAP or some exceptions.  The radios are so expensive they are going to limit our abilities.  I know personally that about half of the member owned radios that our squadron members have will become obsolete soon and that will really cut back on some of our vital ES services.  I am just wondering if any one knows any real good reason this is being forced on us expert for some bureaucrat making a rule.

[CAP.is.1337]

I am just wondering if any one knows any real good reason this is being forced on us expert for some bureaucrat making a rule.

Interoperability and security. If I am reading correctly, government agencies, like FEMA and state emergency management departments will be required to switch. More than likely, SAR teams, and Fire/rescue would be soon to follow. If CAP were still using analog radios, that would mean that we would one of the few who would require either everyone switch to analog, or analog retransmition, either a rather large security risk and another blow to the professional image of CAP.

[Matt]

APCO P-25 as I am to understand it is the Digital Encryption which parrallels analog channels.  Essentially with the encryption on, you could have one conversation in digital and one in analog and never know that both were happening.

P-25 would allow for public safety to indeed be more secure on site.  Which allows for us, if we use it, to relay information between units and base which may be sensitive and not worry about it being intercepted by media or scanner jockies.

As for having it on your personal equipment.  That is a bold idea; especially at it's current add-on price.  I know that for the E.F. Johnson HTs the cost is approximately $425 as the add-on, cranking the overall price to about $1800 per unit.

I enjoy CAP, but I'll stick with the Kenwood TK-280 that I found on eBay with lots of goodies for under $300.  It's WB/NB compliant and is as tough as Motorola or Johnson.  It may not have the P-25, but I don't foresee that being a mandatory thing for at least a few years (enough for me to get through college and get a decent paying job).

Moral: Don't rule out those which are WB/NB simply because they don't have P-25, limits the search a great deal, and ups the overall costs close to and most likely over $1000 for an HT.

[Eclipse]

I agree, the majority of the chatter I have heard regarding the reason for the switch is that narrow-band radios free up the saturated spectrum, not because of encryption.

[Slim]

As I understand it, APCO P-25 standards are only required for equipment purchased with appropriated or corporate funds.  There is no such requirement for member funded gear.

Which is the best depends on user preference.  Some prefer EF Johnson, while others prefer Kenwood, Motorola, Vertex or Tait.  The only hook is that the equipment must be both wide and narrow band compliant.

Personally, I prefer Motorola.  I use them every day, and I just can't beat the durability.  I have an MT-2000 handheld with 160 channels, alphanumeric display, and the wide band (136-174 MHz) antenna.  I have all of the frequencies for work, my fire dept, military (for the base we have our encampment at), Coast Guard/marine, and two banks of amateur repeaters and common simplex channels, and the darn thing still has more empty channels.  It's been wet, overheated, took a swim in both a portable water tank and Lake St Clair, and dropped several times and it still works just fine.

If you don't need a lot of channels, the HT-1000 is the way to go.  It's basically the 16 channel little brother to the MT-2000.  Meets all of the same specs, and is just as durable.  One of the neighboring departments lost one inside a burning house, and found it after the fire was out.  The antenna coating was melted off, as were the control knobs.  They took a pair of pliers to it, turned it on and it still worked.

You can find either of these on eBay for reasonable prices, just have to look.

I bought one of the Tait T-2020s from the Supply Depot before they went under, and it's a good radio as well.  My only issue with it is that 25 watts is a little wimpy to me; the Motorola Spectras we have at work are 110 watts.  Otherwise it works just fine.

Best thing to do is find a radio that meets what you are willing to spend, check the compliance list and go for it.  If you take care of it, it will last you a lifetime.  OTOH, if you're a little clumsy with it now and then, these radios will forgive you for it.  I've had my MT-2000 for ten years.

[Eclipse]

Assuming this is correct, then the use of encrypttion will be limited at best.  My mobile is USAF gear, but my handheld will likely always be my personal property.

As to which mobile I prefer? Anyone that works!

[KyCAP]

I would check with your Wing DC.   

Although CAP does not require the use of P-25 for "our" Command and Control communication support today....  Agencies that you might support in your mission "might".   Most Public Service radio networks are now running encryption and digital trunking.   If you want to have the capability to "interface" with them directly from the field in your area you will need this feature.

Cordially,

Capt. Russ Hensley, CAP
Director of Communications
Kentucky Wing

[KyCAP]

Thinking about this more..

P-25 is a "Standard".

A P-25 based radio system, can be wide band, narrow band, digital, analog, encrypted or not.

Further, digital modes that are encrypted need licenses in the radio firmware for AES, DES or DES-XL encryption just like virtual private network (VPN) tunnels on the internet.  Further, these all can be trunked and each channel in the radio can do something different.   With encryption you can even change the keys over the air (OTAR).



If you are bored..
http://www.signalharbor.com/ttt/00jun/

Thanks,

Capt. Russ Hensley, CAP
KyWG/DC

[KyCAP]

Just to add some more information into this thread for future readers.

The RRradio site looks like a good solution.  But I can't see that much of an advantage when trying to compare the pricing to an EF Johnson of the same "grade".

The GSA contract for EF Johnson is: GS-35F-0675K.  You can go to www.gsaadvantage.gov and pull up the contract.  It's all public information.

Then refine to 5112 to get the "vanilla" CAP radio.  The GSA price is $1035.72.    That is cheaper the rradio site by few hundred dollars for all of their P25 NTIA radios listed.   The charger is not included in either model.

Given, you can't purchase an EF Johnson without P25 and you can a Kenwood.

I know CAP members complain about the radio's not being inexpensive any longer, but I was impressed when talking with my neighbor.  He's on a local rescue squad.  When the county converted, he purchased his own 800 Mhz Motorola radio, charger and a few batteries.  All over $1000 worth of equipment for his VOLUNTEERism in just the county.

Turns out most of the rescue squad did, plus they purchase safety gear over $1000 worth each.. No reimbursement from the County...

Just some perspective and more information to assist in the purchase decision for all you CAP members out there.

Thank you for all that you do.

Russ

[arajca]

Another option: CAP members can purchase radios from ICOM at GSA prices. Go to the Icom America Government page for the phone number. They will give you the prices over the phone. You'll need a credit card to purchase the radio and whatever extras you want. Keep in mind that you'll need to either program the radio yourself or find someone to do it for you.

[Eclipse]

Some prefer EF Johnson, while others prefer Kenwood, Motorola, Vertex or Tait.  The only hook is that the equipment must be both wide and narrow band compliant.

That's only TODAY. You're better off waiting until next year when the narrowband sunsets hit and things
switchover. A VX-180 is about $200 - that'll be the new GTM-preferred choice to replace the 150.
Once the switchover is made, WB radios will be bricks for CAP, and will be all over eBay dirt cheap.

There is also the chance of an 11th-hour extension for the sunset of WB equipment.  Why bother buying
an expensive WB/NB radio which only has a few months left of value?

Another option: CAP members can purchase radios from ICOM at GSA prices. Go to the Icom America Government page for the phone number. They will give you the prices over the phone. You'll need a credit card to purchase the radio and whatever extras you want. Keep in mind that you'll need to either program the radio yourself or find someone to do it for you.

CAP radios always have to be programmed after receipt, as well as certified and licensed.  Unless you are a CUL who
is Wing-authorized to do that, individual users are not allowed to program radios. That people get the
cables on eBay, and use hot software to program radios and use them withot licenses is besides the point.

Once we go to the NB switch with the new freqs, much tighter controls will be in place. Since EVERY RADIO IN THE FLEET
will have to be re-programed and certified, it will be easy to identify the rogues.

[arajca]

Some prefer EF Johnson, while others prefer Kenwood, Motorola, Vertex or Tait.  The only hook is that the equipment must be both wide and narrow band compliant.

That's only TODAY. You're better off waiting until next year when the narrowband sunsets hit and things
switchover. A VX-180 is about $200 - that'll be the new GTM-preferred choice to replace the 150.
Once the switchover is made, WB radios will be bricks for CAP, and will be all over eBay dirt cheap.

There is also the chance of an 11th-hour extension for the sunset of WB equipment.

No there isn't. On 1 Oct 2007, the transition to NB will be complete for CAP, and all WB equipment will be turned off. Anything that stays live after that will be an exception granted by National, however that exception will have a hard deadline of 31 Dec 2007.

Why bother buying an expensive WB/NB radio which only has a few months left of value?

There are no NB only radios available now. If you buy a NTIA compliant WB/NB radio now, if it has atleast 90 channels, you'll be fine when the conversion hits.

Another option: CAP members can purchase radios from ICOM at GSA prices. Go to the Icom America Government page for the phone number. They will give you the prices over the phone. You'll need a credit card to purchase the radio and whatever extras you want. Keep in mind that you'll need to either program the radio yourself or find someone to do it for you.

CAP radios always have to be programmed after receipt, as well as certified and licensed.  Unless you are a CUL who
is Wing-authorized to do that, individual users are not allowed to program radios. That people get the
cables on eBay, and use hot software to program radios and use them withot licenses is besides the point.

It will be up to the wing DC's as to who gets the new frequency list. I don't think any of them will turn a member's request down if the member is programming their own radio.

Once we go to the NB switch with the new freqs, much tighter controls will be in place. Since EVERY RADIO IN THE FLEET
will have to be re-programed and certified, it will be easy to identify the rogues.

Radios will not have to be certified.

[Eclipse]

The VX-180's are narrow-band compliant only, which is why you can't get the certified today.

I'll let your mileage vary, however in many states, who is allowed to program a radio is severely restricted.

All NEW radios brought into the fleet will need to be certified for compliance, at the least.

[KyCAP]

Hrm.

Interesting point.

ICOM GSA contract GS-35F-0109L and product IC-F70S 03 bear to have some review.

$561 each unit roughly plus charger at first glance.  FYI - you don't have to call ICOM to get the pricing, just use the GSA advantage site where all GSA contracts are displayed. 

The real question is in the feature set that the firmware supports.  If the basic EF Johnson feature set includes more options than the ICOM then that is one thing.

The other is that your WING and every member of CAP should be able to access the EF Johnson software, I think.  I will need to reserve that.

Everyone would need to purchase their own programming cable.   These are $$$ like $150 + each or more up to $300.

As a (newer) Wing DC looking at where other volunteer orgs are at, I can recommend "standardization" until further review.  EF Johnson is looking like less of a greater evil in the big picture the more that I learn.


Russ

[Matt]

The VX-180's are narrow-band compliant only, which is why you can't get the certified today.

That would be a true statement.  Not because they transmit incorrectly, realistically, if someone would be Xmitting in WB you wouldn't hear them because you're be set for 12.5KHz instead of 25KHz which is WB, thus your chances of hearing (unless you open the squelch) aren't good.  That's why you'd be better off waiting for the WB sunset.  If you're intent on getting the radio now, leave the Decode CTCSS open and there won't be problems.

[...] who is allowed to program a radio is severely restricted.

It's not a matter of who is allowed so much as: who has the actual access to channel plans and to the programming equipment.  As said before, most Comm Officers, wing-wise aren't going to deny people, simply because they did ask which make them aware that people have equipment capable of operating on our freq's.  I'm not sure of other wings, but for WIWG, most unit Comm Officers have the Comm Plan, and Channel Plans.  The sensitive part isn't really the freq's so much as the combination of freq's and coding (which allows communications on channels).

So, it's not restricted so much as lining the resources (channel plans and programming equipment) up to have the ability to program.

All NEW radios brought into the fleet will need to be certified for compliance, at the least.

Yup.  Nailed it right on the head.  MG Pineda has stated in his policy letter ( Available Here that: "For the past several years Civil Air Patrol has, in accordance with DoD policy, been purchasing P25 Digital Audio capable base, airborne, mobile and portable stations. When the approximately 450 new repeaters are distributed to the field in anticipation of the 2007 transition to narrowband, they will be fully P25 capable. Though not required now, it is becoming apparent that the future of voice radio communications will be digital."

[KyCAP]

It's not a matter of who is allowed so much as: who has the actual access to channel plans and to the programming equipment.  As said before, most Comm Officers, wing-wise aren't going to deny people, simply because they did ask which make them aware that people have equipment capable of operating on our freq's.  I'm not sure of other wings, but for WIWG, most unit Comm Officers have the Comm Plan, and Channel Plans.  The sensitive part isn't really the freq's so much as the combination of freq's and coding (which allows communications on channels).

So, it's not restricted so much as lining the resources (channel plans and programming equipment) up to have the ability to program.

All members will have access to the information, but they MUST complete the OPSEC course.  It is not information controlled by the Comm Directors.   Your comm officers in your wing will be briefed about how to get it if they missed the video conference from Reno.

[ctrossen]

Hrm.

Interesting point.

ICOM GSA contract GS-35F-0109L and product IC-F70S 03 bear to have some review.

$561 each unit roughly plus charger at first glance.  FYI - you don't have to call ICOM to get the pricing, just use the GSA advantage site where all GSA contracts are displayed. 

The real question is in the feature set that the firmware supports.  If the basic EF Johnson feature set includes more options than the ICOM then that is one thing.

I've been looking over some of the Icom products for a while. Note that their VHF P25 radios (the IC-F70 in a handheld and the IC-F1721/1821 in a mobile) come in a few different varieties. There's the non-P25 versions (of which you're looking at one above), a P25 upgradable version (just a firmware update near as I can tell) and then the full P25 version (along with keyboard and non-keyboard varieties).

As in everything, the choice of radio manufacturer is a personal preference. I like Icom, have been using Icom products for years, and have rarely had a problem. Unlike the Johnson mobile we had set up as a base station in our hangar that just decided one day to stop working (having had MAYBE an hour or two of use after installation).

On the other hand, I understand the NTC has a support depot set up for the Johnson radios (and presmably for the Micoms as well?). We ended up getting a different radio back from our wing DC.

Take FWIW.

[SarDragon]

Regarding the EFJ radios, a frequent cause for "failure" is improperly powering down the unit. The radio MUST be switched off using the front panel knob before disconnecting the input power source. We had a lot of trouble with our vehicle mounted units in that respect.