What do you think of possible CAP budget cuts by DoD?

Started by iowacap, January 28, 2006, 07:23:38 AM

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iowacap

I know this is going to effect the whole united states I had recently read from a letter from our national commander that in conjunction of enlisted, officer, and civillian cuts and mostly to effect the CAP wings is the proposed budget cuts. This is going to require everyone to re-think how they spend their money for training and ect. to get every bang they can for the buck. From what I understand its like a $3.66 million in proposed cuts and the whole CAP program is going to be organized to be more efficient in money spent. This includes possible cuts of cadet programs or restructure of them to make them more cost effective but this does not only effect cadets it effects everyone. I know this sounds like it could be bad but lets not get hasty and start writing angry letters to represenitives or to CAP leaders about this because its not only affecting CAP its the whole Air Force too. I just wanted to give everyone an open ear to this so no rumors start flying and lets not let this effect on how we do our job lets still perform it as we did before and show we can still do it with flying colors even when faced with a hurdle to overcome! Below is the letter that I received and wanted to get an idea what all you other CAP members thought if you have not heard yet.


~~Letter~~



National Board members,

To ensure accurate and timely information goes to our members, I am sending this notification.  Please caution our volunteers to not react emotionally to this funding cut because next year's budget across DoD is going to be greatly reduced and as both Civil Air Patrol and the Air Force Auxiliary, we must act in a responsible and professional manner. We must also ensure our message is consistent and that it stays focused so we don't become our own worst enemy by sending disjointed, noncoherent messages to Congress or to the Air Force leadership.  This detailed information is being provided to you with those thoughts in mind and to inform you, not cause alarm.

The Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) recently issued a budget decision that cut deeply into many existing Air Force programs and making sweeping manpower cuts to AF officer, enlisted and civilian end strength.   As a result of the decision, Civil Air Patrol's funding for FY07 is proposed for a nearly 15% cut - a reduction of $3.667M to our Ops & Maintenance (O&M) line.  Originally, we were programmed to receive $24.968M.   We hope that our efforts to work with senior AF leaders and Congressional leaders will reduce this funding cut, but we know CAP will most likely take some level of funding cut and it will be significant! Working within the system, we fight to restore as much funding as possible, but CAP will come out of this "transformed" -- our focus will be on core missions, to eliminate any function or program that does not directly support our core missions, but at the same time, realizing our core missions will require a new focus.

If CAP is faced with this reduced budget, our National Board will need to make policy decisions on the priorities of this organization. What follows are some initial thoughts as CAP can not absorb this magnitude of funding reduction with out adjusting both National Hq employees and national programs.  Here are the facts:

- NHQ has 122 funded personnel positions at Maxwell AFB
- We have 52 Wing Administrators; 35 full time; 17 part time
- You could expect a 25 - 30% reduction in Maxwell staffing and potentially ALL Wing Administrators will have to be part time

As for programmatic cuts:
- Outreach programs of AE, special programs that affect a small audience (IACE) will be severely reduced
- NHQ support and conduct of cadet special activities will be significantly curtailed
- Since first year cadet attrition is 50%, expect the uniform program to be appropriately resized
- The O-flight program will be reduced, but not eliminated
- Other non-core programs and support by NHQ employees will be curtailed or eliminated outright
- We will not be able to sustain the current level of support received from NHQ; many functions will truly have to become volunteer lead

You could expect our aircraft fleet to be resized to actual requirement, but surprisingly, we may continue to see Congressional plus-ups in procurement allowing us to replace older, more maintenance intensive C-172s, 182s with the modern, glass cockpit C-182

Overall our 15% reduction is right in line with other cuts across Air University -- we not unfairly singled out, but we continue to work with in established procedures to mitigate our cut.  We promise to explore and implement greater efficiencies, both at NHQ and across CAP to better utilize the funding we do receive, BUT the direction of CAP will change, that's inevitable.  All options are being explored - please share your thoughts, but I ask for a spirit of cooperation.  Now is not the time to hunker down and strike out at the Air Force, just to achieve our ends!

With a consolidated, joint position, we will weather this budget storm the best we can. 

Thank you for your reasoned and calm support during what promises to be a turbulent period.  Rest assured, your National senior leadership is working this problem hard and will keep you advised.

Tony

Tony Pineda

groundpounder

I agree with the General, it is not time to hunker down and fight. This is an opportunity to look within ourselves and reorganize our operations, both on the National and Local levels.

For some time I have felt that CAP serves too many masters, with three different core missions. I would explore the possibility of eliminating the funding of all external Aerospace Education operations, get rid of paid Wing administrators, and put a full court press on finding local sources of funds (states, counties etc.)

Wing administrators cannot be controlled by NHQ and will only end up being buddies of the Wing CC with little to do and no way to measure performance. Instead of having 52 part timers, get a few full timers at NHQ to support several wings each. Before that happens, take a step back to see why the Wings have so much paperwork, and what could be done to eliminate it.

There are way too many people working at NHQ for the size of this organization. Compare us to any mid size corporation and you will see what I mean. Don't be fooled into thinking that we are equivalent to a corp with 50,000 employees. We do not have anywhere near the overhead required for an operation that has 50,000 people coming to work every day, getting paid, producing products, processing medical claims etc., there is no comparison.

Get some good business people in there to look around and this cut will end up being a surplus after the real cuts are made.




JAFO78

Yes this is the time not to panic. Anyone who has worked for any company or school, should know that budget cuts happen.

We need to be calm cool, and stick together. Tighten the belt and look for additional funding.
JAFO

flyguy06

Wher ecan I find a copy of this letter onthe official CAP website?

I think we should focus more on aviation

Eclipse

Frankly, I think that anyone considering cutting our already bare-bones budget is being very short-sighted and naive about its effect.  I was similiarly frustrated when we had to cough up for the "war-tax" at the start of the war.  Our total budget is likely less than the cost of dessert and coffee for one day in the sandbox. 

I think we would be better served trying to find the receipt for the G8 Airvans and seeing if we can still return them. As slick as they are, they are more hassle than worth, and there are so few pilots who can fly them its not funny. Trade them in on some 182's and get the rest on a gift card if we can't find the receipts.

With that said, I think the effects to the rank and file will be negligible.  My comments with respect to how I think this will effect IL :

- NHQ has 122 funded personnel positions at Maxwell AFB
     No comment except that this is news to me and they should back fill w/ volunteers
- We have 52 Wing Administrators; 35 full time; 17 part time
     Illinois doesn't have one, don't care, no impact.
- You could expect a 25 - 30% reduction in Maxwell staffing and potentially ALL Wing Administrators will have to be part time
    See above.

As for programmatic cuts:
- Outreach programs of AE, special programs that affect a small audience (IACE) will be severely reduced
     Other than IACE, my unit gets 0 for outreach. IACE is used as a recruiting sidebar,
     but few cadets actually go. 

- NHQ support and conduct of cadet special activities will be significantly curtailed
     No support of any activities in IL that I am aware of.

- Since first year cadet attrition is 50%, expect the uniform program to be appropriately resized
    Have had cadets back since August, no uniforms yet, didn't expect them, got them all    dressed through DRMO and donations.

- The O-flight program will be reduced, but not eliminated
   Unforutnate, but many cadets never even see an airplane anyway.

- Other non-core programs and support by NHQ employees will be curtailed or eliminated outright
     Would be curious what this means, but likely little impact (prob no ID cards from NHQ)
- We will not be able to sustain the current level of support received from NHQ; many functions will truly have to become volunteer lead
     If anyone can show me what NHQ does to support us at the local level in IL, I would
     be very interested to hear it.   We get some money for gas, and the planes are already
     paid for.  Other than that what?

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 29, 2006, 02:34:56 PM
Wher ecan I find a copy of this letter onthe official CAP website?

I think we should focus more on aviation

I doubt you'll find one - looks to me like this was a confidential internal message to the board which has leaked.

Discusisons I just had locally confirm at least the issue, if not the numbers, and that most believed this was being handled quietly.

I agree this is not panic time, just reality.  Take note, but move on.

"That Others May Zoom"

groundpounder

I think we would be better served trying to find the receipt for the G8 Airvans and seeing if we can still return them. As slick as they are, they are more hassle than worth, and there are so few pilots who can fly them its not funny. Trade them in on some 182's and get the rest on a gift card if we can't find the receipts.


Might be too early to make a call on the Airvans - I hope that they don't end up to be as foolish as the CAP race car was...

I have always thought that the ARCHER program would be better suited for a full time agency with lots of $$ to spend.

Wing administrators - well that is just a bad idea no matter how you cut it. They should be NHQ staff that can be kept an eye on.

Want to spend some $ that will have a huge impact on the program - create some real DVD based traning programs to teach air and ground crew subject matter so the volunteers do not have to spend countless hours teaching what could be learned in the comfor of ones living room. Then the time in the air would be productive practice, not basic training. Most of the good people that we lose quit because it takes too long to become trained.




smj58501

I also agree this is not the time to drop our gloves on the ice and square off. Defense funding has ups and downs... I am full time in the Army National Guard, and we are in a down year this FY as well. The Cdr is right to say we need to re-look our priorities and make some hard decisions.

With that said, I do have a question for discussion. We in CAP, although volunteers, do consider ourselves as a professional organization. Most professions/ professional organizations have a seperate association (I stress seperate since they are not an official arm of the organization represented, and they are supported voluntarily by dues-paying members) whose role in some way shape or form is to promote the profession and lobby congress. The military is no different. The National Guard has the National Guard Association of the US (covers both the Army and Air Guard), and the Army has the Association of the US Army. I am sure the Air Force has one as well, but I can't think of the name.

Does CAP have a seperate lobbying organizatation? If so, what is it and how do we support it? If not, maybe we need to start one. I can speak to the success of NGAUS for the National Guard... they have been very influential in ensuring the Guard has a voice in congress, and extremely successful in ensuring the Guard does not get the short end of the stick from DoD and their "mother services".

The time to organize such a group for CAP is not after several years of budget cuts and continually dwindling resources. Maybe the time is now. As stated earlier, I agree we need to ride the wave of overall defense budget cuts this year. But at the same time, we need to be organized and resourced to fight for our survival before that fight comes. We can be organized by forming an "Association of the Civil Air Patrol" that speaks with one voice to represent our priorities, and that association can be resourced through dues paid voluntary members. Corporate sponsors (e.g. Cessna) could help through contributions, since a well-supported CAP is in their best interest as well.

Its just a thought... we need to be team players with the other DoD elements, but at the same time we need to be prepared to fight for our existance. We can fight professionally through an association whose sole purpose is to influence congress on our behalf.
Sean M. Johnson
Lt Col, CAP
Chief of Staff
ND Wing CAP

JAFO78

Major, You are correct in what you said about a CAP Association, but shouldn't this  be the job of National HQ?

Yes I think it is, but I also think this is the time we need to go around HQ and set up a CAP Association.

I would support such an effort.

We may get our 6 in a sling, but we need to do what we need to do.
JAFO

smj58501

Natl HQ's can only do so much to influence policy, since they are part of "the mother ship". They still need to be team players with the Air Force, as do we as members in our official CAP capacity. The reason the associations exist for other military entities is they really can't get away with lobbying congress in their official capacity.

The beauty of a CAP Association or Association of the CAP (whatever it would be called if formed) is it has no official tie to CAP or the USAF. It would be a seperate group of people who share a common bond of CAP membership, with a purpose of watching out for the "official" CAP. Natl HQ's should not really care if it is formed, since one of the interests we are watching out for is them too. The Cdr can't really prevent us from forming such an association, so long as we do so on our own, and without using "official" CAP resources to do so (this forum, by the way, could be a good start since it is not an "official" CAP resource). I believe we would be protected by the 1st Amendment in the regard... and we could even hire a lobbyist if we have enough resources to do so.
Sean M. Johnson
Lt Col, CAP
Chief of Staff
ND Wing CAP

Eclipse

So...you'd set up a 501c(3) to support the existence and promotion of another 501c(3)?

Why would you believe that we could get professional, committed lobbyists to support an organization that can't get professional, committed >members<?

The best thing we could do to insure our existence is to use the money we have left
for new light saber batteries and start chopping deadweight.  Efficient, inexpensive operations should be the mantra.  Try and solicit a few people with a management clue.  I don't know...maybe ex military and active police and fire people?

Every sortie flown by a once-a year ROMEO who can't work the radios is a waste of money.

Spend a year cleaning house, getting rid of the GOBN bottlenecks and reestablishing our core mission and outside relationships.  Market it as a stand-up.  Leave Archer in the box, and mothball the new planes, and spend the money shaking hands and making deals.

Active units doing a lot of real work will have new members (and $$$) beating down the doors.

Any state who is presented with an essentially "free" asset like CAP >could be< will be happy to cough up some dough to help out - best money they ever spent.

We go knocking today, when it takes months just to decide who knocks and how many times, and we'll be laughed out of the office.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2006, 12:44:14 AM
The best thing we could do to insure our existence is to use the money we have left
for new light saber batteries and start chopping deadweight.

You must have an early model... The ones we got issued are rechargeable.  :D
Mike Johnston

iowacap

Well it is not a letter that leaked or confidential it was issued so that rumors that may start to go around are suppressed and everyone is informed of the issue so that we dont hear different things and get the rumor mill going in all the wings. I saw some talk about an "association" or something of the sort for wings to take things to like the state government and the best thing for this is like what we do have a legislative liason to take all the concerns from squadrons and wing to lobby the state for in this case so that we dont have a bunch of people with different info going to the state where we can have the info come from one person and lobby that way and seems to work very well.

capchiro

Just wanted to add my two cents worth.  I don't think we should be tqalking about getting rid of wing administrators.  We have one, I believe she is part-time.  She is the best source in the state for what is going on in the state.  She has been in the position for many years and is necessary.  the Wing Commanders come and go, but she is the concrete that holds the state together.  She is the only consistency that we have... and she sure isn't overpaid...  She tried to retire and few years ago and things went to h**l in a hurry.  We begged her to return.  Having someone at NHQ will not get anything done in the state.  Having someone at NHQ will only insure that their allegiance is to NHQ.  NHQ doesn't have a clue half of the time as to what we need/want or do.  Our Wing Administrator is probably the most important person in our state.  If your wing administrator isn't doing the job, get a new one, but don't try to take ours from us.     
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Eclipse

Lt. Col. Siegrist,

I am confused. Unless your state has been paying an administrator out of its own budget, or she is a volunteer, I don't understand how she has been around for years.

As I understand it, the paid administrator program has only been in place for about a year, and many states have not yet even hired one.

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

I started a new thread to discuss the idea of the Civil Air Patrol Association.  This way we can keep that topic slightly separate, and discuss the merits and demerits of such an idea separate from the discussion on the budgetary cuts.

Right then... carry on.     :)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

capchiro

Capt. Williams,

I am probably the confused one.  If the Wing Administrator position has only been around a year, I think I must have our wing secretary confused with it.  All I know is that she knows where the skeletons are buried, what forms are needed when, and anything else we squadron commanders in the field need to know.  Having admitted my confusion, I must ask what a Wing Administrator is?  Surely no one could do more than our secretary?
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Eclipse

Wing Administrator is a paid position created by NHQ about a year ago as an effort to
assist swamped volunteers.  You will note below that IL, IN, & MA (among others) are still looking for theirs.

CAP members (at least unit CC's) are not allowed to apply.

Essentially they need an experience office manager types and are paying for entry-level clerical.

http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/employment/wing_administrator/


"That Others May Zoom"

BlueLakes1

Although it's not posted, I have not seen or heard of a Wing Administrator being hired here in KYWG. They say all the wings have them, but how many positions are still vacant?

I thought about applying for it but decided against it. Personally, while I'm sure they're nice to have around, I think we could do without them for awhile and divert the budget money elsewhere.
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

Eclipse

I'm not privy to how many are open, but thr original plan authorized one for each Wing.

Unit CC's are not allowed to even apply, and any active member taking the job is problematic at best, expecially for any member who has financial authority at any level.

"That Others May Zoom"

groundpounder

It seems that the Wing Administrator positions are not filled in many Wings if I am reading this thread correctly. As I said before, the key is to stop this type of "payroll creep" and look at the reasons that we seem to need a paid person at every wing in the first place.

Think about it, we have 122 paid people at NHQ and the Board approved the hiring of another 50 (yes some are part time). Assume for arguments sake that they all are part time, thats a 20% increase in head count at least. How many companies would make a call like that?

Take for example promotions; we start at the lowest level and pass paperwork all the way up to National so a paid person can key in the very information that was typed in by the squadron commander back at his unit. How about letting the CC type it in via the interenet and have it show up on a screen at whatever level is necessary to approve it. Once approved, it updates to the NHQ system and bingo, spits out a request for a new ID card. This could be applied to many of the forms that we currently pass from volunteer to volunteer to paid person creating delays, cost and frustration. It's not like a mistake is going to cause a huge overpayment to the member on payday so the internal controls do not need to be as formal as would be necessary for a paid persons promotion paperwork.

There is so much duplication of effort in CAP that we create our own bottlenecks. Imagine if there were one less piece of paper per year going to NHQ for each member in the organization, that would be over 50,000 less items processed, or 190 less letters to open per day. Thats real $$.

Membership renewals - set it up so a member can provide a credit card and check a box on the screen that says "automatically renew until notified otherwise", thats perhaps 50,000 less mailings per year at what, a buck per?? Don't like that idea, send me an email when it is time to renew, if I don't withing a reasonable period of time, then send the letter.

My point is that just because we are a not for profit does not mean that we have to make sure that we spend every dime foolishly.



BlueLakes1

Quote from: groundpounder on January 30, 2006, 06:56:43 PM
Take for example promotions; we start at the lowest level and pass paperwork all the way up to National so a paid person can key in the very information that was typed in by the squadron commander back at his unit. How about letting the CC type it in via the interenet and have it show up on a screen at whatever level is necessary to approve it. Once approved, it updates to the NHQ system and bingo, spits out a request for a new ID card. This could be applied to many of the forms that we currently pass from volunteer to volunteer to paid person creating delays, cost and frustration. It's not like a mistake is going to cause a huge overpayment to the member on payday so the internal controls do not need to be as formal as would be necessary for a paid persons promotion paperwork.

Don't know if you knew this, but there's already a way to process duty performance promotions this way. Unit personnel officers can enter the info, and it will go to the proper commander(s) for approval and post automatically, with no additional input from NHQ. I really don't see other promotions going this way, since they all require some other documentation to verify the proper credentials for promotion (military ID card or DD214, pilot certificate, medical or law license, etc.), but certainly if all duty performance ones are handled this way, we're cutting down NHQ's workload.

Since you mentioned cost of mailings (although I didn't quote it), we could cut down on mailings by going strictly to the CAPWATCH available PDR and online entry/approval of specialty track ratings. NHQ provides units with computers and earthlink access, why send something in the mail when you can get it online? Also, my unit has been using the new online track update with great success, once again as soon as the unit CC approves the rating online it shows up in the member's e-services profile without additional input from an NHQ staffer.

Quote from: groundpounder on January 30, 2006, 06:56:43 PM
Membership renewals - set it up so a member can provide a credit card and check a box on the screen that says "automatically renew until notified otherwise", thats perhaps 50,000 less mailings per year at what, a buck per?? Don't like that idea, send me an email when it is time to renew, if I don't withing a reasonable period of time, then send the letter.

That's available too, sort of. I get an emailed renewal notice and pay online, although it doesn't hold your card info permanently. Multi year renewal is optional, too. But i never get a paper letter mailed for my renewal notices, just the email.

While we're on cost cutting measures, does anyone know the cost difference between production of CAP News and the Volunteer? Certainly the new magazine costs more to produce, perhaps a return to the old way would be good for awhile to save some money.
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

iowacap

I agree we could cut down on costs by using what can be obtained by members via E-services. I like the new format for cap volunteer but if they are looking at being cost effective the old style of cap news would be the best but really that is not up to us and our leaders at national will do what they think is best but I think they should ask for opinions from each wing on how to cut costs that way they could get a picture of what each wing needs and cuz costs without cutting something one may need to complete a mission.

Pylon

Quote from: groundpounder on January 30, 2006, 06:56:43 PM
It seems that the Wing Administrator positions are not filled in many Wings if I am reading this thread correctly. As I said before, the key is to stop this type of "payroll creep" and look at the reasons that we seem to need a paid person at every wing in the first place.

Think about it, we have 122 paid people at NHQ and the Board approved the hiring of another 50 (yes some are part time). Assume for arguments sake that they all are part time, thats a 20% increase in head count at least. How many companies would make a call like that?

Take for example promotions; we start at the lowest level and pass paperwork all the way up to National so a paid person can key in the very information that was typed in by the squadron commander back at his unit. How about letting the CC type it in via the interenet and have it show up on a screen at whatever level is necessary to approve it. Once approved, it updates to the NHQ system and bingo, spits out a request for a new ID card. This could be applied to many of the forms that we currently pass from volunteer to volunteer to paid person creating delays, cost and frustration. It's not like a mistake is going to cause a huge overpayment to the member on payday so the internal controls do not need to be as formal as would be necessary for a paid persons promotion paperwork.

There is so much duplication of effort in CAP that we create our own bottlenecks. Imagine if there were one less piece of paper per year going to NHQ for each member in the organization, that would be over 50,000 less items processed, or 190 less letters to open per day. Thats real $$.

Membership renewals - set it up so a member can provide a credit card and check a box on the screen that says "automatically renew until notified otherwise", thats perhaps 50,000 less mailings per year at what, a buck per?? Don't like that idea, send me an email when it is time to renew, if I don't withing a reasonable period of time, then send the letter.

My point is that just because we are a not for profit does not mean that we have to make sure that we spend every dime foolishly.


I agree with this very much so.  I think that these are the types of things that such a budgetary period will encourage us to do.  We need to step back and look at our processess, our methods, our spending habits, and find out what really is and isn't necessary.  Hopefully, the National leadership will take this introspective look at CAP and make the necessary changes so that, moving forward, when things are not so tight, we will eventually have more money for missions because we are spending it more wisely.

I like the idea of reducing membership mailings by offering e-reminders and perpetual renewals.  Many credit card companies and banks use these services to reduce the number of printing and mailings they must do, and it works well for them.  I, for one, would sign up for automatic renewals -- just keep charging my Amex for membership until I say so, or until they kick me out.   ;D

I don't see the ID card as that much of an expense, if the costs charged to the members cover the expense of the program.  I believe that this was in the design from the beginning.  The card is optional and the cost of production and handling will be born by those who choose to have one.

I also agree that more paperwork can be made electronic, and filter it's way up the chain for approval.  While duty performance promotions, specialty track assignments, and duty positions are all now available on e-services, more can still be added.  Cadet progression would be a huge piece to add, and would be an excellent way to reduce loads of paperwork.

NHQ should also encourage more use of these e-services modules and slowly phase out paper submission of things like duty performance promotions, specialty track updates, Form 8 orders, etc.  Since every unit gets an internet access account with their laptop, I don't see any reason why these submissions could not be made at least once a month by every unit.  Surely, every unit has someone with access to a phone jack once a month.

This is a great time to start implementing these easier processess so that everyone wins and CAP saves funding.  This is also a great time for CAP to really emphasize the mission of the new CAP Foundation and to get that project underway.  We'll weather this, and we'll demonstrate to the USAF and the rest of the U.S. that we are both efficient and mission capable.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

fyrfitrmedic

 Some wings get quite a bit of money from their home states; it's the question of how the money is utilized that's important in those cases.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2006, 03:33:58 PM
Lt. Col. Siegrist,

I am confused. Unless your state has been paying an administrator out of its own budget, or she is a volunteer, I don't understand how she has been around for years.

As I understand it, the paid administrator program has only been in place for about a year, and many states have not yet even hired one.

Some wings have had administrators for 10 or more years. My wing is one.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversationsâ„¢
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

No doubt, but are they paid out of your local budget or as GS employees?

My understanding was that these new slots are GS civil service situations with benefits, budgeted out of NHQ.

"That Others May Zoom"

rebowman

I am full-time in the Air National Guard -- the military has been having budget issues every year now for several years.  This year is only different because it has gotten worse for two reasons:  All of our (the US) money is going to fund Hurricane Relief Efforts and to fund the war in Iraq. My unit has suffered greatly from the FY06 budget cuts -- but we are slowly getting the help that we need.  We have been real happy with every little bit of help that we get.  My commander, myself, and the rest of my squadron are just happy to still be where we are today....

My real point here is that budget cuts have happened and as I see it it is something that is going to plague the military ( and CAP) for awhile.  We need to be happy with what we have.  The FY07 budget is far from being finalized... if CAP does take a hit by getting cuts  we can carry on and perform our mission just like we have since 1941.

DOD and Congress are working very hard to ensure that the money is spent where it needs to be. 

As a member of CAP & the Air National Guard I am not favoring any one side... I am just trying to show both sides.

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2006, 03:53:10 AM
No doubt, but are they paid out of your local budget or as GS employees?

My understanding was that these new slots are GS civil service situations with benefits, budgeted out of NHQ.
CAWG has had an administrator for some time, too. She was the single paid employee of the wing.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Mac

Here in ND we have had a "Wing Administrator" aka Wing Admins Officer for years who was paid by the state as a full time position. He is in the process of getting ready to retire and his job has been listed with the state as an opening. One of the requirement's of the job is they must be able to get a CAP membersip.

We also just got our part time Wing administrator who is paid by national.
Derk MacPherson, Lt Col, CAP
Vice Commander
Alaska Wing, PCR-AK-001

flyguy06

I dont see the problem with having Wing administrators. You need someone to do the day to day work of the Wing. You can depend on volunteers 100% of the time. They have lives too and have to feed their families. In the National Guard, we have a full time staff at each armory.

Also when talking about automation, again, everyone in CAP is not computer savy. My commander doesnt know how to use the ineternet soguess what , when something needs approved on MIMS, it takes us forever to get it  done. I hate MIMS.

TankerT

Actually, our wing has had a Wing Administrator for years.

Having one is indespensable for us.  He/she (been different people over the last 10 years) does so much for us.  I can't imagine not having one, as it would be a huge blow for us.

I think that NHQ should look at trimming some of the fat upstairs, as well as some of the other expendatures.  (Such as funds for SLS, CLC, RSC that could be offset by a small increase in fees.)  Cut a few Aircraft.  (Heck, we all know that there are some units that just are flying clubs, and not operationally capable.

I'm hesitant to trim IACE... but... that's another story.

O-Flights.  Well... what they SHOULD do is restructure how they pay for these.  It's hard for a unit to NOT make money on the current rates.  Reducing the payment rates on those would allow for more funded flights.


/Insert Snappy Comment Here

Earhart1971

The Money loss will happen at National HQ, and they say a 30% staff cut will make up the loss.

The Staff cut is hard on people at National, but the Squadron Level might not even notice.

CAP Squadrons run on total Volunteer Power, now what I might suggest to National HQ, is they start a Senior Squadron up there, and get some retired Air Force Types to fill the Admin Gap.


BlackKnight

#33
...
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

Major_Chuck

Interesting topic.  It ties into the whole CAP Corporation vs USAF Auxiliary discussion that rears its head every now and then.

I think now is the time for CAP as a whole to begin a more aggressive lobbying campaign from the states for additional funding.  For far too long we've just putzed along waiting for the AF to drop us some coins.    Now as it has been correctly pointed out monies are being diverted elsewhere.

Corporate CAP can ask for monies from private corporations and local/state governments a whole lot easier that AF Auxiliary CAP can.

There are revenue sources out there in the form of grants and the such.  You just need to have some good grant writers on board that can tap into them.


Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

Earhart1971

#35
I never understood why the funding level for CAP is so low on the Air Force Budget, until I went to CAP Staff College at Maxwell AFB, the Air Force has its alternative to CAP its called AFJROTC.

The AFJROTC HQ is funded ten times the total CAP Budget.

CAP with all its missions gets 24 million vs the 200 million to AFJROTC per FY Year.

AFJROTC,  uses the Leadership Lab, and other books developed originally for the CAP Cadet Program, they are swimming in funding and paid employees all the way down to individual unit level.

The only function of AFJROTC is the Cadet Program Mission, and nothing else, the don't do Search and Rescue, or Homeland Security.


AFROTC has paid professionals working all down the chain of command to(High School Unit Level).

Now this is an expample of where Civil Air Patrol could be with the appropriate funding from the Air Force.

Plus, CAP does save the Air Force money doing  Search and Rescue, how much savings.... well you could multiply the hours we fly.... with the least expensive Air Force alternative, paid crew and C-130 aircraft cost, times the hours flown.

Would that come up to 200 million annual savings?


Eclipse

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 13, 2006, 09:07:22 PM
I never understood why the funding level for CAP is so low on the Air Force Budget, until I went to CAP Staff College at Maxwell AFB, the Air Force has its alternative to CAP its called AFJROTC.

The AFJROTC HQ is funded ten times the total CAP Budget.

CAP with all its missions gets 24 million vs the 200 million to AFJROTC per FY Year.

AFJROTC,  uses the Leadership Lab, and other books developed originally for the CAP Cadet Program, they are swimming in funding and paid employees all the way down to individual unit level.

The only function of AFJROTC is the Cadet Program Mission, and nothing else, the don't do Search and Rescue, or Homeland Security.


AFROTC has paid professionals working all down the chain of command to(High School Unit Level).

Now this is an expample of where Civil Air Patrol could be with the appropriate funding from the Air Force.

Plus, CAP does save the Air Force money doing  Search and Rescue, how much savings.... well you could multiply the hours we fly.... with the least expensive Air Force alternative, paid crew and C-130 aircraft cost, times the hours flown.

Would that come up to 200 million annual savings?



Make no mistake, AFJROTC is a recruiting mechanism for the USAF (and military in general), and as such it is funded that way.

"That Others May Zoom"

SKYKING607

G'day to everyone...

At a Nat'l Conf in Las Vegas twenty years ago, we kicked the idea of a "life membership" just like the NRA has.  Such membership would bring the organization some needed O & E revenue.

Just an idea from my memory buds!
CAWG Career Captain

JAFO78

I maybe mistaken, and I sure I can be corrected. I thought I saw on CNN that the National Guard was getting some money restored. I know many people are overseas in the war, but If they can get money back can we?

or are we so low down the chain that we have to fight the rest of the bottom feeders for whats left?
JAFO

Major_Chuck

Hate to say it but welcome to the bottom feeders.

In all fairness to the Guard, they are on the actual combat frontlines in Iraq and Afghanistan and if they were to sustain their operations off of just State Budgets then they would be grossly underfunded.

We are a non-combat entity.  Yes we perform a very small percentage of real AF directed HLS missions but truth be told we are at the lower end of the financial priority level.  As it should be.  I would hate that some one in a combat zone went without something because we fought to have monies diverted away.


Quote from: RobG on March 01, 2006, 11:17:58 AM
I maybe mistaken, and I sure I can be corrected. I thought I saw on CNN that the National Guard was getting some money restored. I know many people are overseas in the war, but If they can get money back can we?

or are we so low down the chain that we have to fight the rest of the bottom feeders for whats left?
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

Major_Chuck

Toys R Us donated our rechargeable light sabres as part of their HLS Mission.  A special forces battalion of GI Joes is being prepared now.


Quote from: MIKE on January 30, 2006, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2006, 12:44:14 AM
The best thing we could do to insure our existence is to use the money we have left
for new light saber batteries and start chopping deadweight.

You must have an early model... The ones we got issued are rechargeable.  :D
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

JAFO78

Well it looks like we will get a $4 million dollar hit. To me that don't seem to bad.

How does everyone else feel about it.? I'm not sure how big the budget is?
JAFO

Major_Chuck

AF Appropriated budget is about $24 million.  Huge hit $4 million.  Here is where the advantage to being a Non Profit Corporation kicks in.  CAP can chase after private companies and donors in an attempt to off set this.

Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

JAFO78

Thanks Major for enlightening me. The budget was around $24 million, at first I thought it was a miss print.

Wow what do they spend the $24 million on, coming up with new uniforms every national board meeting.  ::)

$24 million is not very much, for a full year. I see why fund raising is so important.
JAFO

Earhart1971

24 Million is the operating budget for National Headquarters, you would be surprised how much money you can go through when you are paying about 100 to 125 people salaries.

Major_Chuck

Quote from: Earhart1971 on March 27, 2006, 12:14:15 AM
24 Million is the operating budget for National Headquarters, you would be surprised how much money you can go through when you are paying about 100 to 125 people salaries.

Don't forget that this is money that AF has budgeted for us out of their funds.  We do have monies coming in from our individual contributions (dues) plus contributions from business and industry.  On the state level governments may contribute some out of state budgets to wings.  Again this is the principle advantage to also being non-profit corporation.

4 mil is still a huge hit when you look at it, just means a little more belt tightening.  Perhaps in the non-essential stuff and not in what matters.  You fill in the blank here.

Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

Earhart1971

Quote from: capchiro on January 30, 2006, 02:54:54 PM
Just wanted to add my two cents worth.  I don't think we should be tqalking about getting rid of wing administrators.  We have one, I believe she is part-time.  She is the best source in the state for what is going on in the state.  She has been in the position for many years and is necessary.  the Wing Commanders come and go, but she is the concrete that holds the state together.  She is the only consistency that we have... and she sure isn't overpaid...  She tried to retire and few years ago and things went to h**l in a hurry.  We begged her to return.  Having someone at NHQ will not get anything done in the state.  Having someone at NHQ will only insure that their allegiance is to NHQ.  NHQ doesn't have a clue half of the time as to what we need/want or do.  Our Wing Administrator is probably the most important person in our state.  If your wing administrator isn't doing the job, get a new one, but don't try to take ours from us.     

By the way the budget cut is not going to happen.

Got the 4 million Back! Plus more.

You can thank Tony Pineta, the National Commander, folks fasten your seat belts, the best is yet to come!

groundpounder


dwb

Last I knew, we were trying to get a plus-up from Congress for this fiscal year (or was it FY07?), to help ease the burden of the budget cuts.

A plus-up is not the same as the budget cut not happening.  It's a one-time appropriation.  I'd be surprised if the budget cut was totally reversed, especially since Congress is in recess right now.

alexalvarez

I hope this information is correct.  Upward and onward!
Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

SarDragon

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 14, 2006, 07:33:27 AM
Quote from: capchiro on January 30, 2006, 02:54:54 PM
Just wanted to add my two cents worth.  I don't think we should be tqalking about getting rid of wing administrators.  We have one, I believe she is part-time.  She is the best source in the state for what is going on in the state.  She has been in the position for many years and is necessary.  the Wing Commanders come and go, but she is the concrete that holds the state together.  She is the only consistency that we have... and she sure isn't overpaid...  She tried to retire and few years ago and things went to h**l in a hurry.  We begged her to return.  Having someone at NHQ will not get anything done in the state.  Having someone at NHQ will only insure that their allegiance is to NHQ.  NHQ doesn't have a clue half of the time as to what we need/want or do.  Our Wing Administrator is probably the most important person in our state.  If your wing administrator isn't doing the job, get a new one, but don't try to take ours from us.     

By the way the budget cut is not going to happen.

Got the 4 million Back! Plus more.

You can thank Tony Pineta, the National Commander, folks fasten your seat belts, the best is yet to come!

Nice news, but let's at least get our National Commander's name right - it's Pineda.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Earhart1971

Quote
Nice news, but let's at least get our National Commander's name right - it's Pineda.

Hey, I was tired, from driving back from Ft. Lauderdale, LOL!

By the way take a look at the Sheriff thread.

And my opinion, you cannot run a successful CAP Organization out of Members WALLETS.

We keep trying to do that, and it doesn't work, members burn out and leave.

We need paid people all the way down to Squadron Level.

But it takes assets and budget, you either fund raise or you make friends with local government agencies that can support CAP.

Study the Boy Scout Organization,  they have a 50 year start on us.