Cadet punishment/discipline???

Started by capchiro, January 06, 2006, 11:58:06 AM

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flyguy06

I fail to see the comparesence.
I am not saying be a drill sergeant to cadets,but inthe same voice I amsaying dont treat them like children. They are not children. hey are future leaders.

MIKE

Quote from: MIKE on January 07, 2006, 06:51:18 PM
Quote from: capchiro on January 07, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
In this situation, what punishment/discipline is appropriate?

A suspension or suspensions would seem to be in order.  I'd also include counseling and an LOC for all parties involved.

Quote from: CAPR 35-16. a. (2) Regulatory Infractions or Misconduct. A unit commander or higher commander may suspend a member for up to 60 days for misconduct or regulatory infractions. Suspensions in excess of 60 days require approval of the wing commander (or commander at the next higher echelon if the suspension is initiated at wing or region level). Suspensions under the provisions of this paragraph will not exceed a total of 180 days.

I stand by my previous comment 'cause a suspension precedes termination action.  ;D As I see it the disciplinary actions authorized should have a stepped approach in the way they are applied.  Verbal counseling/reprimands are for the minor offenses.  Written letters of counseling or reprimand (LOC/LOR) are for minor offenses that should stay in a members personnel file for a while.  (Maybe you want to bring out that LOC from a few months back when Cadet Snuffy is up for a PRB and CAPF 50?).  For the most part I think demotion on the cadet side at least, is less severe than suspension since the cadet still attends meetings... Plus you can only bust them a maximum of three achievements... Sometimes a longer term punishment than a suspension however.  Suspensions are for serious misconduct that may not warrant termination or to preclude misconduct that may, pending further  investigation.

One thing I wonder about is if you can have separate charges with separate disciplinary actions... Like the case above where there was also insuborination.... Maybe the commander decides that this cadet is worth saving and gives him 60 days suspension 'cause he feels the reg infraction/misconduct while serious was due to ignorance (common for cadets and seniors) and doesn't see it as willfull... And no charges were filed... But the insubordination was deemed willfull... So the CC orders that after the 60 day suspension the cadet be demoted the maximum of three achievements for the insubordination charge IAW the provisions of CAPR 52-16.
Mike Johnston

NIN

#22
Quote from: MIKE on January 14, 2006, 05:22:04 PM
A suspension or suspensions would seem to be in order.  I'd also include counseling and an LOC for all parties involved.

Quote from: CAPR 35-16. a. (2) Regulatory Infractions or Misconduct. A unit commander or higher commander may suspend a member for up to 60 days for misconduct or regulatory infractions. Suspensions in excess of 60 days require approval of the wing commander (or commander at the next higher echelon if the suspension is initiated at wing or region level). Suspensions under the provisions of this paragraph will not exceed a total of 180 days.

I stand by my previous comment 'cause a suspension precedes termination action.  ;D As I see it the disciplinary actions authorized should have a stepped approach in the way they are applied.  Verbal counseling/reprimands are for the minor offenses.  Written letters of counseling or reprimand (LOC/LOR) are for minor offenses that should stay in a members personnel file for a while.  (Maybe you want to bring out that LOC from a few months back when Cadet Snuffy is up for a PRB and CAPF 50?).  For the most part I think demotion on the cadet side at least, is less severe than suspension since the cadet still attends meetings... Plus you can only bust them a maximum of three achievements... Sometimes a longer term punishment than a suspension however.  Suspensions are for serious misconduct that may not warrant termination or to preclude misconduct that may, pending further  investigation.

One thing I wonder about is if you can have separate charges with separate disciplinary actions... Like the case above where there was also insuborination.... Maybe the commander decides that this cadet is worth saving and gives him 60 days suspension 'cause he feels the reg infraction/misconduct while serious was due to ignorance (common for cadets and seniors) and doesn't see it as willfull... And no charges were filed... But the insubordination was deemed willfull... So the CC orders that after the 60 day suspension the cadet be demoted the maximum of three achievements for the insubordination charge IAW the provisions of CAPR 52-16.

Having done this, I can comment...

:)

Some offenses demand a number of range of disciplinary actions, and maybe even a layered approach, depending on severity and consequences.

Couple examples:

1) Some cadets & parents complained to me that some cadet staffers were swearing an awful lot.   I got the cadet staff together, put the word out "You swear at or in front of your troops, I'm takin' a stripe. Period."  The word got out to the whole sq pretty quick and the incidence of cursing has dropped to nil.  (Mind you, I can curse up a blue streak, but I am VERY circumspect in front of my troops) One day one of my C/TSgt flight sergeants lets loose a whole stream of invectives including an F-Bomb or two.  Two cadet staffers complain and that touches off the whole counseling/demotion process.

The cadet got a formal written counseling (for the file, to begin the paper trail) and a one-grade reduction.  A one grade reduction = "Keep your nose clean for 60 days" (ie. the regs say that the cadet must earn back the grade at 60 days per achievement of "good behavior" or some  such.  That's a "you need to keep your nose clean for 60 days" thing)  Following his reduction, he was repromoted to C/TSgt and subsequently continued his progression.

Had I heard this just myself, I probably would have given him a formal counseling and he'd have gotten the hammer on the 2nd time.  But there was a formal complaint from other cadets, and at that point my hands were tied. :)

2) Two cadets get into a fist-fight at a meeting.  I counseled and suspended both for 60 days.  Again, written counselings for both that included their suspensions as part of the terms of the counselings. One went on to be our cadet commander, the other continued to disregard my instructions pertaining to activities & transferring.  (he tried to sneak out, wound up going to another squadron during his suspension, etc. His name dropped off my rolls after about 30 days, so I faxed a letter per 39-2 to NHQ that said "This transfer is not acceptable for this reason" and by the end of the day he was back in my unit. When the gaining commander called me to bit^h^h^h complain about what I was doing to one of "his" cadets. He was very surprised to find out that this cadet was serving out a 60 day suspension that had been signed off on by the wing commander, because the week after I suspended this cadet, he showed up at the other squadron saying he wanted to transfer, etc, and had been participating at that other unit since.  Suffice to say, the gaining commander said "Oh, whoops, pardon me. I was unaware of this.  Sorry about that. You can have him.." and he finished out his 60 days under the heel of my boot!  ::) )

I eventually preferred termination action against him due to his continual insubordination, blatant disregard for the orders given, and lying about the whole thing.  The wing commander declined to support one of his commanders on appeal, however.

3) Cadet attempts to firebomb a kid's car at school.  Cadet comes to me after he's been busted by the cops for this offense and kicked out of school. I told him "You goofed. Hard.  I cannot let you continue to be a C/NCO if that's the example you choose to set."   He got a 30 day suspension and a three-grade demotion.  Total time of "punishment" was 210 days. 30 days suspension + 180 days of demotion/good behavior time, which was structured as to be consecutive, not concurrent.    Plus, as part of his counseling, at the end of each 60 day period I directed that we sit down with him and his parents for a status check. If mom & dad didn't think that his performance warranted the earn back of his grade, it was 2B time.  So he got three additional written counselings out of that on top fo the written counseling directing the suspension & the 3-grade demotion.

4) Cadet broke into our NG Armory and stole NG property, which got us booted out of the armory for a period of time.   After the previous two commanders declined to prefer adverse personnel actions against him for that, about 18 months later, while he still carried membership, he showed up to the armory several weeks after being arrested for theft of property from a fire station & impersonating a fire fighter at a fire scene.  His 2B paperwork chased his stupid ass out the door.  I didn't even bother with counseling him or suspending.  I just hucked him out.  *BAM*  I attached a copy of the newspaper article about his arrests to the 2B. No questions asked.

Layers, ogres are like onions!




Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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