National Board Agenda

[CAP_truth]

Found this link to the national board agenda.

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/events/2007_cap_annual_conference/national_board_business_agenda.cfm

[dwb]

Looks like they have a lot of new business to discuss.

[TankerT]

Looks like they have a lot of new business to discuss.

It's in invisible ink.  You have to send in 10 box tops to get the pen that reveals the secret message!

[IceNine]

Last I checked their are some real membership affecting issues to be dealt with. First thing that pops into mind Vanguard

Its almost like the NB members are afraid to rattle the cage and work on real issues.

But then again, I haven't ever seen one of these meetings so I don't know what the taboo items are and such.

[ThorntonOL]

It looks like a fill in the blank sheet for all the new business that comes up, which they all should have already done but who knows?

[jb512]

Let's look at agenda item 20.  Yes, I know that the NCO thing has been hashed out many times, but I wish they'd pull from you guys who are there now for their guidance.

I don't have any problem with CAP NCO promotions, but with strict limitations since that's the only group we have with any military and/or strict guidelines.  I think that at a minimum you should have been through RM basic and Tech school, AIT, whatever to be eligible.  Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

Just my two cents.

[Capt Rivera]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....

I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

[SarDragon]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

[jb512]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....

I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

That is a valid opinion.  There is the argument that if we're giving people officer rank with no RM experience, then why not give them enlisted rank too.  You say that we should not promote people beyond their RM rank, yet look at our officers.

It's a jacked up system as it is, so someone needs to come along and fix it.  I apprecitate the fact that we have one, but if it served our needs then there wouldn't be so many threads trying to get things changed.

[jb512]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

[Cecil DP]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....




I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

So if I decide to forgo my current CAP grade of LtCol to be a SMSGT, I shouldn't ever have the opportunity to advance, despite havng met all the requirements to be a LtCol and having held that grade for close to  20 years.

[SarDragon]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

Sorry, I left out a quote:

-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

I was addressing that particular statement.

[jb512]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

Sorry, I left out a quote:

-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

I was addressing that particular statement.

Well you guys could answer that better than I could.  To me, RM rank supercedes CAP rank. The PME and such are much more stringent in the RM so why wouldn't we honor someone's rank?  I understand there are CAP specific requirements, but we already promote officers just on the basis of their RM rank so why not enlisted...

I think I'm beating the horse.

[mikeylikey]

Well you guys could answer that better than I could.  To me, RM rank supercedes CAP rank. The PME and such are much more stringent in the RM so why wouldn't we honor someone's rank?  I understand there are CAP specific requirements, but we already promote officers just on the basis of their RM rank so why not enlisted...

hmmm....we do honor RM rank in CAP.  If you are enlisted and you get promoted on AD/RES/NG then you can apply for a promotion in CAP.  Same is true for Officers.  If you come in as a CAPT in CAP because you happen to be an Army Captain, and you make Major say two years later, you can apply for CAP Major. 

As a side note.....I never once used my "RM" rank for a special promotion.  I promote in CAP with TIG just like most other members.  I have however used my PME for Region Staff College credit though!  So I agree with you there that most schools in the military are a step above what CAP offers currently.  But I have a feeling we shall see some changes in CAP Schools within the next year. 

[Capt Rivera]

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

What would be the incentive to go to CLC etc.... things learned in CLC and other CAP specific trainings can't be gained through RM PME. Yes I know foundations are repeated, (ORM, communication model etc) I'm just referring to learning the CAP corporate structure and operating outside of the squadron setting.

Not all, but the majority wont go through the SM professional development program if they don't get a reward for it

[mikeylikey]

^ Agree.....the reward for SLS and CLC participation is credit toward Promotion.  Some members come to CAP as Automatic Captains or Majors and if I am not mistaken only have to make up CLC and SLS if they want to promote past that, many do not. 

I think it should be required that SLS and CLC be completed during the members first year.  This is where the new members are supposed to learn about the Squadron and Corporation, and in conjunction with the CAP Officer Course (AFIADL 13) gain the knowledge to make great CAP members.  CAP is totally different than the military (apples and oranges again, although tasty, have their own distinct flavor).  Now, seeing the course work for Region Staff College I can say without a doubt that some advanced military PME courses can take the place of attending RSC.  Heck, a new Officer in any branch of the military learns most if not all the material taught at RSC during their pre-commissioning source schooling or immediately following at an Officer Basic type course.

Don't worry though.....there are huge plans to rework the CAP PRO DEV within the next year.  It will create a totally new program that is on par with PME courses offered by the military.  Some will embrace it, while others will hate it and probably quit.   

[Eclipse]

So if I decide to forgo my current CAP grade of LtCol to be a SMSGT, I shouldn't ever have the opportunity to advance, despite havng met all the requirements to be a LtCol and having held that grade for close to  20 years.

Correct.  You know the score when you make the choice.

Repeating now...there is NO ENLISTED PROGRAM IN CAP.  Members with stripes are simply choosing to wear their equivalent grade from a compensated military service with no commensurate privileges, authority, duties, or progression.

Say what you want about CAP grade, but their is a mature PD program in place that moves you through training and progression.

Until that occurs w/ "enlisted" grades, you pick a track and live with it.  If you choose to wear your stripes, fine.  You'll be a xSgt when you retire from CAP, unless you choose to jump to an officer track, which then means you start at SMWOG, even with 10 years in (with the exception for equivalences for enlisted NCO grades).

As we've discussed about 1.2738 million times, the whole idea is silly.  NCO's don't bring anything special with their stripes that CAP >needs<, this idea that the NCO is the guardian of the "working military" and have all this "groud-level" experience is all fine and well in the caste system which is the reality of compensated military services.

It doesn't exist in CAP.  Colonels and Generals empty the trash and go for pizza the same as a SrA would, and this idea that the stripes somehow buy you double-digit mojo "just because" doesn't hold much water either, because the majority of people in CAP don't even "get" why being an NCO is such a big deal - they only know about grade and rank from the movies, and they only know that even though you have 7 stripes, you still have to salute the yahoo 21 year old 2d Lt who just joined.

Those of us who >do< understand the weight and meaning of those stripes are still frustrated because while you may have vast and extensive military service and experience to offer, for whatever reason you have chosen to divorce your selves from >our< program, which doesn't speak well to your understanding of CAP, or a volunteer environment in general.

Its pretty hard to speak with credibility about progression and training when you yourself have chosen not to play in our pool.

[mikeylikey]

Its pretty hard to speak with credibility about progression and training when you yourself have chosen not to play in our pool.

You Sir are correct!  There is an established Officer Professional Development System in place and has been in place for many years.  NCO's that want to stay an NCO does so knowing they are not playing "in our pool" (I liked that one).  I also hate how everytime the proposal is brought up for an NCO Corps in CAP, we hear phrases like "I work for a living", "We are real military", etc. etc. etc.  I am getting sick of it.  I work just as hard in the military (and more so) than any NCO.  I have greater responsibilities, commitments, least of which is making sure the welfare of my NCO's are taken care of.  Nothing against enlisted folks, they work very hard too, but the differences between being Commissioned and Noncommissioned are vast.  In fact, if we are going to create a new NCO Corps in CAP, why not create a "RM" Commissioned Corps in CAP.  What does the NCO bring to CAP, that I did not?  Heck, I brought my CAP Cadet experience, my ROTC experience, four overseas tours beginning in 2003, I sit on countless boards (one being an Academy entrance board), I have written published articles, I have graduate degrees out my but and I consider myself to be one awesome tactician in the game of Stratego (buy it, it is a real good board game!!).

I just don't understand the desire not to play the CAP game as intended??  If this does work out and an NCO corps is created, do I get to bust the Sgt who fails to salute me thinking I am "just a CAP Officer, with no "RM" experience".  Will I have to start introducing myself to CAP NCO's as "Army Captain Mike, CAP Captain too"   

[flyguy06]

wow, this was a thread about the national Board agenda, but it turned into a thread about being an NCO, so let me bring it back around.

I liked the item about letting service members deployed extend their membership until they get back. I know when I was in Iraq I renewd online when I had the chance, but I know other folks OPTEMPO may be wher ethey may not be able to do that, so I like that suggestion.

[mikeylikey]

^ What do you think about the Volunteer Ribbon for Officers?  Or about the price break for Cadets that transition to Senior Members??

[Short Field]

^^^ Sounds too much like a search for Bling.  I would much rather see the "volunteers" volunteer their time to CAP - not another organization.   

The discount membership rate might have some merit but it is being proposed based on anecdotal information and lacks any numbers to back it up.  It also just affects a very small group of people.

[Eclipse]

What about Item #11: Clarification of Special Appointment Promotion Authority

I have read it 4 times now and it clarifies nothing to me...

Are they recommending that Group CC's can promote unit CC's to Captain (after 1 year) or not?

[Major Carrales]

^^^ Sounds too much like a search for Bling.  I would much rather see the "volunteers" volunteer their time to CAP - not another organization.   

The discount membership rate might have some merit but it is being proposed based on anecdotal information and lacks any numbers to back it up.  It also just affects a very small group of people.

With all do respect, we are trying to make allowances for our military deployed and cadets who are trying to maintain a connection to CAP whilr they are away at school; they are trying to make some allowance for this small group.  I see no problem with it.  In fact, I think this will actually be helpful in retaining numbers...we lose good people when they have to leave CAP for college.  I have a sailor deployed to the theater right now.

I say go for it.

[Eclipse]

Sounds ok to me - need not be anymore complicated than a check-box that a Unit CC can use the says "deployed" and pauses memebership renewals actions, etc.

[Short Field]

I have no issue with extending the membership of deployed members and didn't address it.  It is such a good idea that approval should be a non-issue.

On the dues issue, we are only talking $10.  Who came up with that number and why do they think it will make a difference?  Where is the discount made (National, Region, Wing or all three) and wouldn't the same rationale apply to any member under 25 years old?    I personally don't care - but I really don't believe $10 would make a difference.  That is a bit over two gallons of gas!  Now, if they were serious, they would cut the dues in half.  That might have an impact.

[Short Field]

Now the other issue....  I really don't see the rationale of a volunteer organization rewarding their members for devoting time to another volunteer organization.   

[jb3]

I think that we're missing the point and chasing after non-issues. For instance members who deploy with the military. I have one of those jobs that deploys me with short notice for extended periods so I simply renewed my membership for three years instead of only one. Problem solved. Try to give active duty guys a little credit. We also seem to have tunnel vision with NCO promotions. What about when I was a CAP major while still only an Army lieutenant. We promote officers so we can promote NCOs. It seems strange yes, but our grade is not equal to the military and it is not supposed to be. It's like police chiefs who wear four stars, that's the rank for their organization. And the volunteer ribbon in my opinion should remain for cadets. Actually it should never have been created because I'd rather have members giving their time to CAP rather than other groups. Our country needs the talents and dedication that CAP members offer more now than any time in the past couple decades and we are too busy trying to fill our uniforms with awards and finding ways to make our members happy. We should focus on what our organization is even for. Trust me, if you give your members meaningful missions they will continue to serve, even more so than promotions and ribbons.

[Eclipse]

I think that we're missing the point and chasing after non-issues. For instance members who deploy with the military. I have one of those jobs that deploys me with short notice for extended periods so I simply renewed my membership for three years instead of only one. Problem solved. Try to give active duty guys a little credit. We also seem to have tunnel vision with NCO promotions. What about when I was a CAP major while still only an Army lieutenant. We promote officers so we can promote NCOs.

We can't promote members without objective criteria for promotion, which does exist for our Officer grades.

To do that requires we create an entire NCO program.

To create an NCO program requires valid duty separation for those who would be considered "enlisted", which in turn should equate greater respect and authority to those who would be considered "officers".

None of it is necessary or workable in CAP.

Suggesting we structure the Senor program like the cadet program where you start with stripes and work to bars is fine, I suppose, but negates the notion that NCO's have some special place in CAP.  Just as in the cadet program the various grades simply become a time-stamp to progression.

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

[dwb]

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

There are many contexts for the word "officer" that don't involve commissions.  Do you call the CEO of your company an NCO?

[mikeylikey]

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

Ummm...?

The Commission on my wall says "I do appoint him....blah blah blah".  I was appointed an Officer, took the oath of office for such appointment.  

Enlisted members are promoted, not appointed.  No matter what the various service NCO creeds say, no NCO is appointed to any office.  

[billford1]

Strange how there's nothing in the NB meeting agenda about changes to 39-1 or uniform changes. There's usually something introduced to make the volume of 39-1 bigger.

[mikeylikey]

^ That will be under "New Business".

[Eclipse]

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

Ummm...?

The Commission on my wall says "I do appoint him....blah blah blah".  I was appointed an Officer, took the oath of office for such appointment. 

Enlisted members are promoted, not appointed.  No matter what the various service NCO creeds say, no NCO is appointed to any office. 

What I meant was, we are all officers without a commission, ergo, "non-commissioned-officers".

But to your actual salient statement,  in CAP, members with stripes instead of bars would be "non-appointed-officers", or NAO's.

[mikeylikey]

So should the proposal have been FREE membership for the first year for Cadets transitioning to Senior Membership (to include Flight Officers)??

So I take it no one really likes the idea of a volunteer achievement ribbon for Senior Members?  How about letting Seniors who earned the Cadet version keep it as Senior Members??  We can do it for other ribbons, maybe that would have been a better way to go.....

[Capt Rivera]

I can't speak for every unit.... but I know many units volunteer in their cities and counties doing things like highway cleanups, park cleanups, tree planting etc....

From what I've been told both directly and indirectly, the cadets who do these things and the officers who supervise them, enjoy it. (I enjoy it as well)

Most young people need volunteer hours (diverse hours) to help get into the schools they are applying to.

Most squadrons can use the free publicity they sometimes get because they volunteer in their local community.

The ribbon is a good idea- it states your volunteering outside of our normal 3 missions.

So for all of you worried that people will spend less time with CAP because they are volunteering with another group to earn a CAP ribbon... Don't. Find opportunities that your squadron can do, and take advantage of how it brings your members closer together, gives you free press and the opportunity to be in the public eye, etc,etc....

[SarDragon]

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

Ummm...?

The Commission on my wall says "I do appoint him....blah blah blah".  I was appointed an Officer, took the oath of office for such appointment. 

Enlisted members are promoted, not appointed.  No matter what the various service NCO creeds say, no NCO is appointed to any office. 

Au contraire. Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers in the United States Navy are appointed. I have a handful of certificates, for both my wife and myself, documenting seven such appointments, over a period of 21 years.

[Cecil DP]

And btw, since we are all "appointed" to our grade, technically we are all "NCO's".

Ummm...?

The Commission on my wall says "I do appoint him....blah blah blah".  I was appointed an Officer, took the oath of office for such appointment. 

Enlisted members are promoted, not appointed.  No matter what the various service NCO creeds say, no NCO is appointed to any office. 

Au contraire. Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers in the United States Navy are appointed. I have a handful of certificates, for both my wife and myself, documenting seven such appointments, over a period of 21 years.

Ditto the USMC all certificates say " appointed to the grade of"

[mikeylikey]

^ Go talk to your local JAG.  He or she can clear it all up for you.  It is nice that your certificate may say appointed, but in legality you are not.   

[RiverAux]

Seemed to be an unusually high number of disagreements within the various groups allowed to comment on agenda items. 

Unsurprising that they didn't actually post the agenda in the eservices section devoted to NB/BoG/NEC agendas and minutes where most people would logically look for it.

[IceNine]

^ when have they done that on an expedient or consistent basis?

They normally don't post the agenda it usually leaks and get's passed around.  Just like the Minutes leak.  I am surprised that they actually posted publically at all this time

Last BoG minutes are from Dec 07 no agenda even from the june meeting
Still no minutes from the May NEC meeting

[CAP_truth]

I think that the enlisted grade member should be in a separate membership class like the "general Aviation Membership" we had in the 70's & 80's. A new training program should be established with TIG and Specialty Training. A RM transition into program from RM to CAP.

[winterg]

Just my two cents on the enlisted discussion.  Hate to keep hashing away at it, but here goes.  Feel free to flame away. 

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

Why reinvent the wheel when it comes to a senior member enlisted progression program.  We already have a structured professional development program with established requirements.  Keep the requirements the same.  Let's face it, most of the training we do has no resemblance to an officer school anyway.

Level 1: SrA
Level 2: SSgt
Level 3: TSgt
Level 4: MSgt
Level 5: SMSgt

Not sure how I would work CMSgt's in there, maybe a time thing or promoted to that rank based on position held?  Thoughts?

I know this is going to be the part I probably get the most flak for, require a college degree to enter the officer track.  It only makes sense.  College does not necessarily make a person smarter, but hey, Look at a lot of RM officers! lol jk.  This makes the officer track actually mean something other than that you paid your dues.  Require some form of officer schooling for "appointment" to officer grade.  Maybe use the National Guard correspondence course.  Most importantly, there should be a "trained" officer corps to lead.  Appointed or not.

A person who comes into CAP with previous military experience would start at the equivalent rank in CAP but just as we do now, you would be required to "catch up" on PD training if that person wanted to promote further.  Any officers who comes into CAP would obviously do the same.

An issue I thought of is, what do you do in a squadron that does not have a member who qualifies for officer.  My answer to that is, most squadrons should be flights anyway and could be headed by a Flight Sargent or if an officer is available, Flight Commander.

I know most won't like my idea that officers should be college graduates.  But it is usually the benchmark in RM and civilian organization that most oftens separates the rank and file from leadership positions.  Just my two cents.

[jb512]

Just my two cents on the enlisted discussion.  Hate to keep hashing away at it, but here goes.  Feel free to flame away. 

Sounds like a good start to me.  And, keep the Flight Officer grades around for pilots without degrees and/or other positions normally held by officers.

[mikeylikey]

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

But you want to put some stripes on a person that never "earned" them either. 

Rank in CAP shows Pro Development attainment and time in.......nothing more, nothing less. 

I wouldn't mind getting rid of rank once and for all for EVERYONE!!!

[winterg]

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

But you want to put some stripes on a person that never "earned" them either. 

Rank in CAP shows Pro Development attainment and time in.......nothing more, nothing less. 

I wouldn't mind getting rid of rank once and for all for EVERYONE!!!

Getting rid of rank would never work in an "Auxiliary" of the USAF.  I almost think it's necessary.  If a person wants to do SAR without the "military" structure, there's plenty of other organizations.  If they like working with kids, there's plenty of those as well.  And, no, I'm not telling you to quit! lol  And as for earning the stripes, I never said that.  My comment was meant to infer that we need to completely overhaul our system and how we attain rank.  And IMHO, the more we pattern ourselves after the traditions, values, structure, and such of our parent organization, the better.

[John Bryan]

I don't think we could go all golf shirt / flying club...we need uniforms and structure....I mean even the fire dept has that.

As for an Auxiliary without grade.....the USCG Auxiliary members have no "grade" or "rank" and it works for them.

btw....I don't think we should change I just wanted to throw the USCG Aux model out there for discussion.

[MIKE]

As for an Auxiliary without grade.....the USCG Auxiliary members have no "grade" or "rank" and it works for them.

Not really.

[billford1]

The best way not to screw CAP up more is to leave things alone. If you want people to show up and do work as unpaid volunteers it helps to make them feel like they belong. When they've been there a while and worked to achieve milestones the grade advancement is meaningful even if only symbolic. If an arbitrary decision is made to take the grade structure away it will be a wonder if there's anybody left in the senior program.

[tkelley004]

CAP NCO's can get promoted now... to 2nd Lt! :clap:

This program exists for one reason, to allow former military NCO's to keep their chevrons if they wish.  It should not be to allow the guy who never made it past E4 to become an E9

You forget that E8 and E9 are limited to 3% of the enlisted force, (E9 being 1%) Lot more Lt Col's running around the Air Force than CMSgts!
2008 stats from the AFA  Lt Col 9,940 CMSgt 2,709  BTW Col 3, 406 and SMSgt are 5,193.

If I had my way this would be changed to only "Top 3" Can't see the need for and former E4 or E5 to be that in love with holding NCO grade that a move to 2Lt is a bad thing.

Bottom line, unless we change our officer program (require more than 6 months breathing, 21 birthdays, and an on-line course you can't fail)
The CAP NCO program does not need "promotions" and in fact having folks put on E9 insignia (and we know some will wear the uniform badly) would only draw the focus of a group of folks we don't need unhappy with CAP

[DNall]

The NCO issue is a national board item. It's appropriate to discuss here.

The proposed item states promotions as a CAP NCO would be based on CAP training. It does not begin execution of NCO promotions. It asks for: 1) general approval of the concept; 2) authorization to develop the specific progression for later approval; and, 3) guidance on non-prior service personnel being eligible. I strongly support that item.

I would also note that this can serve as a foundation for fixing our jacked up grade system. IF you have both an enlisted progression/promotion system, AND the option for adult members to go officer or enlisted... THEN you have the opportunity to establish higher standards for officership, because there is an alternative. That's a huge great thing. It may take a long time to fix things, but this is the way to do it.

Bottom line, unless we change our officer program (require more than 6 months breathing, 21 birthdays, and an on-line course you can't fail)
The CAP NCO program does not need "promotions" and in fact having folks put on E9 insignia (and we know some will wear the uniform badly) would only draw the focus of a group of folks we don't need unhappy with CAP

I agree completely that the standards for 2LT are ridiculous. That brings a whole lot of unwanted negative attention. I would much prefer a system when officer grade is extended to people with some experience, legitimate qualifications, and recommendation from their chain, who then choose to do some real training on how to be a leader/manager - roughly on par of what's expected from any entry level reserve component officer. Our problem organizationally is we call everyone an officer, but everyone does enlisted duties and we train literally no one to function as even a 2LT at any level of our organization. NCOs are VERY capable people that can accomplish a whole lot, but the system breaks down without that officer role.

And for those that think grade is meaningless or even has no place in CAP... I disagree with you, but that's a seperate issue. The fact is you can remove the military titles & apply the same ldrshp/mgmt structure over any successful mid-size or larger business & the functions are exactly the same. We're trying to run a full org top to bottom with only a training program for the mail room, but using titles all the way up to CEO. That just doesn't work.