Community Service Ribbon for Seniors

[Flying Pig]

Leave it a cadet ribbon.  I think some ribbons were designed to motivate cadets to do certain things to build character.

[lordmonar]

So...why don't you want to motivate SM to do cetain things to build character?

[TankerT]

So...why don't you want to motivate SM to do cetain things to build character?

Because... most SMs are just characters?   

That being said... they're at a different stage of their psychological development. 

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

[lordmonar]

Leadership is using the resources you have.....not wishing for the "perfect" subordinate.

[cnitas]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

We have decided, right or wrong, that it is something we should promote to our cadets in order to build character.  Why shouldn't we promote it to our officers as well?
Does character building stop at age 21?
And frankly, if someone went out and spent 60 hours volunteering with ARC just to earn the ribbon, they would still come back to CAP with skills and knowledge that would help our squadron better coordinate with them in the future.

[TankerT]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

1- You're confusing recognizing someone for something they have done, versus promising them with something to get them to do it.  A good employee is going to be someone that does it because it needs to be done, or it is the right thing to do.  They also appreciate the subsequent appreciation as in monetary compensation, or awards.  But, they don't do it for that.  They do it because it is the right thing to do.

2- Yes.  They DON'T need to do it.  Which, is why this award makes no sense for a Senior Member.  One of the purposes of the cadet program is character development.  (Heck, character development is a requirement for cadets.)  It's not a part of the SM program.  Which is why I stated earlier that it should remain a cadet award.

[Eclipse]

Spending 60+ hours with the ARC has specific, tangible, direct benefit and link to CAP service in a disaster area.

[TankerT]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

We have decided, right or wrong, that it is something we should promote to our cadets in order to build character.  Why shouldn't we promote it to our officers as well?
Does character building stop at age 21?
And frankly, if someone went out and spent 60 hours volunteering with ARC just to earn the ribbon, they would still come back to CAP with skills and knowledge that would help our squadron better coordinate with them in the future.

Yes... do we sometimes NEED to use people we don't want?  Yup.  Notice that I my statement had the word "want" in it. 

But, normally...  I don't use people like that because they poison the whole group.  I've relieved several people like that over the years.  I've found that more often than not, people have been happy to step up to help in areas until a competent and motivated replacement is found. 

Part of leadership is convincing quality people to join your team.  And, if you keep and maintain a good esprit de corps... you don't need to deal with those that you need to drag to do something while they're whining to give them a bauble.

Quantity doesn't mean quality.  And, if you can run lean at times, even if it means increasing your own workload... it's a good thing.

[TankerT]

Spending 60+ hours with the ARC has specific, tangible, direct benefit and link to CAP service in a disaster area.

Exactly.

Plus, Volunteer Service is one of our core values.  Shouldn't we want people in our organization that actually believe in them?  Because, when it comes down to it... the hard workers in the field are going to be the ones with the work ethic. 

/Edit... hit submit prematurely...

So... working with the ARC in a disaster area.  We used to have an MOU with ARC.  And, many Wings still do.  So, if you're there as a CAP member... with the CAP... working with the ARC... isn't that already part of our DR mission anyway?  So... why would we need to give someone a ribbon for that?  Besides... if it's in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area... we have the DR Ribbon with V...

And, I've been on a few DR missions... you never know going into the thing if it's going to make you eligible for the award anyway... as FEMA doesn't declare the area as a federal disaster right away... (yes... there have been a small exceptions to this...) yet I'm continually amazed at the number of people that show up...  Do we NEED a ribbon when we have some quality folks?  Nope.  They'll still come and do what is needed... ribbon or not.

Volunteer Service.  It's a core value of CAP.  If you think you need a ribbon for it... you need to reexamine what you're here for.

[lordmonar]

I've said this before in other related threads....

I don't care about why someone does something....only in results.  In the real world we reward "good" behavior so that behavior is continued....basic psychology. 

As a leader I am tasked with getting the job done.   As a leader I will use all the tools I can do accomplish my mission.  If a $0.35 piece of cloth gets a desired result.....I'll use it.

If someone is only out for bling....who cares....so long as the job is getting done and they are following through on their commitments.

So....the question is.....as part of our Professional Development we think it builds character to have our officers work with other community based services....should we reward that behavior?

CAP does not have much of a pay off as far as tangible rewards go.  We can't give people raises, or bonuses all we got is ribbons.

Wishing that our people see it as the "right thing" to do is not leadership.  Leadership is motivating people to get the mission done.

[TankerT]

Wishing that our people see it as the "right thing" to do is not leadership. 

Wishing that our people see things as the "right thing" is not leadership.  But convincing them that it is the "right thing" is. 

[Chappie]

On this issue, I am leaning toward TankerT's position.  IMHO, senior members already have a Community Service Ribbon --- it's known as the Membership Ribbon.  Once I became a member of CAP and committed myself to its Core Values and its 3-fold mission, it entailed Community Service -- and more than just 60 hours  .   Received the ribbon on the front end....all the other has been gravy (so to speak).

[Hawk200]

I don't really see a need for seniors to have another ribbon. In the military, officers don't receive Good Conduct Medals, it pretty much goes without saying that their conduct should be good. Seniors shouldn't be working simply for more bling, and there are seniors that really don't care.

I think it should be the same as far as this one goes. If you wanted to permit it's wear by former cadets, I don't really have an issue with it, it's been earned. But seniors don't need any more than what they have. If anything, seniors should have fewer. The ones that get awarded for service would be far more meaningful, instead of just a few more you can get by biding your time. Eventually, everyone could get one.

[lordmonar]

But real officers do get the Outstanding Military Volunteer Service Medal.  Community Service IS considered to be above and beyond the "normal duties" of military personnel and it is considered something of value...otherwise it would not be on all the evaluation forms, and a major criteria in Officer/NCO/Airman of the quarter/year packages.

So if we are going to us the RM as a guide....the community Service Ribbon is equal to the OMVS....not the Good Conduct Medal.

[Hawk200]

But real officers do get the Outstanding Military Volunteer Service Medal.  Community Service IS considered to be above and beyond the "normal duties" of military personnel and it is considered something of value...otherwise it would not be on all the evaluation forms, and a major criteria in Officer/NCO/Airman of the quarter/year packages.

So if we are going to us the RM as a guide....the community Service Ribbon is equal to the OMVS....not the Good Conduct Medal.

They are eligible, I'll grant that. But not many military officers do it for another ribbon. The good ones are more concerned about their troops getting decs, not themselves. It's that selfless service thing.

The Air Force hyped the core values for awhile: "Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do". What kind of example does it set for seniors to just work for a ribbon? I don't think it would be a good example, and I believe that there are others that don't either. There are people that will go earn badges, and then never perform the job again. That's not "selfless service".

[arajca]

Talk about being cynical.

Obviously, those seniors who volunteer their time outside of CAP really do not care about their communities. Geez!

Let's take a positive spin on this...

Many seniors do volunteer their time outside of CAP for many reasons. For the most part, cadets do not see this and, as I have heard from more than one cadet,feel seniors do not have the same level of commitment to their community.

Will some seniors just go after the ribbon? Yes. However, the vast majority seniors won't change their habits just to get a piece of fabric.

What's wrong with CAP recognizing the volunteer work seniors do outside of CAP?

[Major Carrales]

Settle down folks...there are many of us that volunteer all over.  From the RED CROSS, to Fraternal Organizations like the Knights of Columbus; not to mention chuch proper.

I would even go as far as to say that those that serve in Organziations such as CAP do so, not to wear uniforms in the Oberst Klink/Feldwebel Schultz like persona that so many accuse CAP Officers of, but because they actually due want to serve their Community, State and Nation (to some of us that is more than rethoric, it is a way of life)

I can assume that having/not having a ribbon for that would not alter the service many of us give to our communities.  If one should think so, then that one might fundamentally misunderstand the service element of CAP. 

If it means so much, I would suggest any Senior Community Service Award be a Commander initiated award where the situation would be that a Commander would hear of exceptional service (from some member of the community) and investagate it.  This would limit the award (since the Commander would really want to investigate the matter), prevent people from actively seeking it (documenting every little thing) and make it a meaningful activity ribbon.

[SDF_Specialist]

Why not let the seniors who earned it as a cadet still wear it, and encourage them to pursue additional hours? I was proud of my CSR, and was very disappointed when I had to take it off.

[Hawk200]

Talk about being cynical.

Obviously, those seniors who volunteer their time outside of CAP really do not care about their communities. Geez!

Let's take a positive spin on this...

Many seniors do volunteer their time outside of CAP for many reasons. For the most part, cadets do not see this and, as I have heard from more than one cadet,feel seniors do not have the same level of commitment to their community.

Will some seniors just go after the ribbon? Yes. However, the vast majority seniors won't change their habits just to get a piece of fabric.

What's wrong with CAP recognizing the volunteer work seniors do outside of CAP?

How many of those seniors that work outside CAP are actually looking for a ribbon for what they do? Is it really a major demand? Or is it a case of only a certain few that feel that they need to be recognized for every little thing? That's the point I was making of selfless service. Many work now to contribute, and are perfectly happy with the occasional "Thank you for all your help".

I did seven weekends of quake relief after the Northridge quake in '94. The thanks that still means the most to me was the people that would walk up to us on the street and say "Thank you being here, thank you for helping us." I never got a thing for that, but there's not a ribbon in the world that could give me that kind of satisfaction.

[lordmonar]

They are eligible, I'll grant that. But not many military officers do it for another ribbon. The good ones are more concerned about their troops getting decs, not themselves. It's that selfless service thing.

Not in my experince....sure they are looking out for their troops (or more appropriatly they have NCOs for that)...but most seriously everyone in the military IS looking to fill the blocks necessary to get promoted....to include community service.

The Air Force hyped the core values for awhile: "Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do". What kind of example does it set for seniors to just work for a ribbon?

What...I should not get paid for being on AD?  I should not get a medal for doing my job well?  The example it sets...is if you do a good job....if you do the things we ask of you...we will reward you with a little bling.

I don't think it would be a good example, and I believe that there are others that don't either. There are people that will go earn badges, and then never perform the job again. That's not "selfless service".

Selfless service only goes so far in any organisation.