Community Service Ribbon for Seniors

[James Shaw]

Some of the business agenda for the NB is listed now. One of the items is the approval for a Senior member community service ribbon for activities outside of CAP.

Here are mine:
If the concept is approved than it should be changed for both Seniors and Cadets to just Community Service ribbon. Keep the same ribbon instead of coming up with a new one (I know that folks may find that hard to believe) and have specific criteria for both member types. It would not require to much of a headache other than some paperwork and the ribbon is allready in circulation.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Major Carrales]

Some of the business agenda for the NB is listed now. One of the items is the approval for a Senior member community service ribbon for activities outside of CAP.

Here are mine:
If the concept is approved than it should be changed for both Seniors and Cadets to just Community Service ribbon. Keep the same ribbon instead of coming up with a new one (I know that folks may find that hard to believe) and have specific criteria for both member types. It would not require to much of a headache other than some paperwork and the ribbon is allready in circulation.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

I think it is great, it does not increase the number of overall ribbons (an issue many have here that I cannot fathom to understand) and would allow the wear of this ribbon to tranisition to Senior.

[MIKE]

IMO, the ribbon is too similiar to the Command Service Ribbon.

[mikeylikey]

IMO, the ribbon is too similiar to the Command Service Ribbon.

+1

[Major Carrales]

IMO, the ribbon is too similiar to the Command Service Ribbon.

You know, MIKE, that is true. Form a distance, it is not even distinguishable.  

[James Shaw]

Cadets require 60 Hours


What should the requirement for seniors be?
100
200
300
more?

[cnitas]

Why not 60 hours for basic, and then allow clasps for every additional 100 hrs, or something along those lines?

That way it can be retained from cadet to senior and still recognize those who put in more.

[James Shaw]

Why not 60 hours for basic, and then allow clasps for every additional 100 hrs, or something along those lines?

That way it can be retained from cadet to senior and still recognize those who put in more.

Sounds like a great place to start!

[MIKE]

Me personally... I think the award is pretty lame.  I can respect that it is basically CAPs equivalent of the OVSM, but still... this is CAP we are talking about here.  

Before you start awarding the thing to seniors you need to codify things like:
"1. That the community service occurred outside of CAP.
2. That a CAP member is not verifying the cadet's community service (unless, of course, this CAP member can speak for the outside organization, and sign the verifying letter for the outside organization).
3. The regulation does not require that the verification be on an organizational letterhead, but most outside agencies would probably use their letterheads when verifying someone's volunteer participation.
4. There are no devices currently authorized for this ribbon."

[Eclipse]

I'm not a big fan as for seniors this will likely be more a ticket-punch from other services than how its intended.

If it passes, the criteria should be very objective and specific to indicate this should be non-CAP related service and
should be a project approved in advance by the unit CC, and should not be activity in conjunction with another
organization.

Other organizations, even church groups, have their own ways of rewarding people already.

This ribbon should be similar to Eagle Scout projects.

In other words, if you walk in the door as a new member and had been helping out in a soup kitchen before you joined CAP, don't expect a ribbon for it.

[mikeylikey]

As one of the people who proposed this nearly a year ago and the NEW Wing Commander picked up on it, I have to say the original proposal was for the award to be exactly along the same lines as the Cadets with the exception of hours.  The hours for the basic award would be 80.  The volunteer activity must be verified through a contact individual at the place of service. 

Wait for clarification at the confrence.  I was told it would be similar to what was originally proposed to my previous Wing Commander. 

On a side note, there is a second Item that a group of PAWG members proposed (myself included) almost two years ago.  It is the discount to Cadets who decide to become Senior Members.  However, originally it would have also included Cadets who decided to become Flight Officers as well.  I think the end proposal was 21 through 25 year old.     

[Eclipse]

^ Are you referring to cadets that leave and come back?

I thought the transition today was at no cost if your membership was current at the time of the change.

[cnitas]

I like the overall idea, but why would you skew the requirements for seniors?  This causes unneeded confusion and creates a 'lesser' class of the award for cadets.  Would former cadets reemove the ribbon until they earn 20 more hours of service?  

I have this same problem with the recriuter awards.  At least they are 2 different ribbons.

The rule should be 1 ribbon=1 set of award criteria.

[MIKE]

I thought the transition today was at no cost if your membership was current at the time of the change.

OT: It is if it is done during the membership year.  Renewal is at the senior rate.

Back to topic.

[jimmydeanno]

^ Are you referring to cadets that leave and come back?

I thought the transition today was at no cost if your membership was current at the time of the change.

That's why it's such a good plan.  Your free gift...plus $9.95 shipping and handling

[Eclipse]

I thought the transition today was at no cost if your membership was current at the time of the change.

OT: It is if it is done during the membership year.  Renewal is at the senior rate.

Back to topic.

Depends on when they transition or renew:

3-7. Procedures for Cadets Transferring to Senior Status. After reaching age 18, cadets desiring to transfer to senior member status may do so by simply forwarding a CAPF 12 and a FBI fingerprint card to National Headquarters (a copy of the CAPF 12 should also be forwarded to the wing headquarters). The form will be annotated across the top as follows: "Cadet to Senior - No Charge." When the application is received by National Headquarters, the cadet will be transferred to senior member status for the duration of his or her current membership year, after which time the member will be billed as a senior membership renewal.

NOTE 1: If the cadet's membership is due for renewal at approximately the same time the application for senior membership is made (within 2 months), than the applicant should include new senior membership dues with the application to ensure continuous service. (See attachment 1 for actual dues amount required.) In this case, wing dues will be forwarded directly to the wing.

[RiverAux]

I agree on only one ribbon and that the criteria need to be clarified. 

[IceNine]

I thought the transition today was at no cost if your membership was current at the time of the change.

OT: It is if it is done during the membership year.  Renewal is at the senior rate.

Back to topic.

Depends on when they transition or renew:

3-7. Procedures for Cadets Transferring to Senior Status. After reaching age 18, cadets desiring to transfer to senior member status may do so by simply forwarding a CAPF 12 and a FBI fingerprint card to National Headquarters (a copy of the CAPF 12 should also be forwarded to the wing headquarters). The form will be annotated across the top as follows: "Cadet to Senior - No Charge." When the application is received by National Headquarters, the cadet will be transferred to senior member status for the duration of his or her current membership year, after which time the member will be billed as a senior membership renewal.

NOTE 1: If the cadet's membership is due for renewal at approximately the same time the application for senior membership is made (within 2 months), than the applicant should include new senior membership dues with the application to ensure continuous service. (See attachment 1 for actual dues amount required.) In this case, wing dues will be forwarded directly to the wing.

So work the system, renew as a cadet then transfer.

As for this award I am fundamentally opposed to even the idea.  A majority of the cadets that have this award were awarded it on faulty criteria, i think we will see more of the same from the senior corp.

I would agree with Eclipse that it needs to be something for which the member is not already being rewarded.  But, if you use that criteria, then we could do away with the Cadet Community Service Ribbon, team up with the Congressional Award Program and make a ribbon for that.  At least there is set criteria for completion of those levels.

Additionally, if you rule out everything for which a member is already being rewarded for what is left?  Red cross is out, YMCA, and other organizations are essentially out.  So we are left with the member coming up with completely new concepts, and then it will take someone of authority to validate it.

So again my vote, is do away with the Community Service ribbon all together, use the already predetermined Congressional award program criteria, and team up with them to develop criteria for folk over 25

[O-Rex]

Isn't the premise of CAP Senior Membership to serve the community??

Leave it for the cadets: I think that ribbon should be like the Good Conduct Medal in the RM-officers don't get them.

There's plenty of other bling to earn....

[TankerT]

This should remain a cadet only award.  And, it looks too much like the Command Service Ribbon.

Heck... how many of us have seen SMs wearing the Community Service Ribbon already, thinking it's a Command Service Ribbon? 

[Flying Pig]

Leave it a cadet ribbon.  I think some ribbons were designed to motivate cadets to do certain things to build character.

[lordmonar]

So...why don't you want to motivate SM to do cetain things to build character?

[TankerT]

So...why don't you want to motivate SM to do cetain things to build character?

Because... most SMs are just characters?   

That being said... they're at a different stage of their psychological development. 

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

[lordmonar]

Leadership is using the resources you have.....not wishing for the "perfect" subordinate.

[cnitas]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

We have decided, right or wrong, that it is something we should promote to our cadets in order to build character.  Why shouldn't we promote it to our officers as well?
Does character building stop at age 21?
And frankly, if someone went out and spent 60 hours volunteering with ARC just to earn the ribbon, they would still come back to CAP with skills and knowledge that would help our squadron better coordinate with them in the future.

[TankerT]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

1- You're confusing recognizing someone for something they have done, versus promising them with something to get them to do it.  A good employee is going to be someone that does it because it needs to be done, or it is the right thing to do.  They also appreciate the subsequent appreciation as in monetary compensation, or awards.  But, they don't do it for that.  They do it because it is the right thing to do.

2- Yes.  They DON'T need to do it.  Which, is why this award makes no sense for a Senior Member.  One of the purposes of the cadet program is character development.  (Heck, character development is a requirement for cadets.)  It's not a part of the SM program.  Which is why I stated earlier that it should remain a cadet award.

[Eclipse]

Spending 60+ hours with the ARC has specific, tangible, direct benefit and link to CAP service in a disaster area.

[TankerT]

Personally, I think if I have to dangle a bauble in front of a grown adult to do things that either need to be done, or should be done... they're not the type of person I want working for me anyway.

We do this all the time in the 'real world'.  It is called salary, bonus, recognition, and awards.  I bet your star employee is real grateful for your attitude when it comes time for his/her annual review. 

As you can probably tell, your argument simply does not pass the smell test with me.
We are talking about volunteer work outside of CAP.  It does not 'need' to be done.  It not even on the 'should' level. 
It is something 'nice' to do. 

We have decided, right or wrong, that it is something we should promote to our cadets in order to build character.  Why shouldn't we promote it to our officers as well?
Does character building stop at age 21?
And frankly, if someone went out and spent 60 hours volunteering with ARC just to earn the ribbon, they would still come back to CAP with skills and knowledge that would help our squadron better coordinate with them in the future.

Yes... do we sometimes NEED to use people we don't want?  Yup.  Notice that I my statement had the word "want" in it. 

But, normally...  I don't use people like that because they poison the whole group.  I've relieved several people like that over the years.  I've found that more often than not, people have been happy to step up to help in areas until a competent and motivated replacement is found. 

Part of leadership is convincing quality people to join your team.  And, if you keep and maintain a good esprit de corps... you don't need to deal with those that you need to drag to do something while they're whining to give them a bauble.

Quantity doesn't mean quality.  And, if you can run lean at times, even if it means increasing your own workload... it's a good thing.

[TankerT]

Spending 60+ hours with the ARC has specific, tangible, direct benefit and link to CAP service in a disaster area.

Exactly.

Plus, Volunteer Service is one of our core values.  Shouldn't we want people in our organization that actually believe in them?  Because, when it comes down to it... the hard workers in the field are going to be the ones with the work ethic. 

/Edit... hit submit prematurely...

So... working with the ARC in a disaster area.  We used to have an MOU with ARC.  And, many Wings still do.  So, if you're there as a CAP member... with the CAP... working with the ARC... isn't that already part of our DR mission anyway?  So... why would we need to give someone a ribbon for that?  Besides... if it's in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area... we have the DR Ribbon with V...

And, I've been on a few DR missions... you never know going into the thing if it's going to make you eligible for the award anyway... as FEMA doesn't declare the area as a federal disaster right away... (yes... there have been a small exceptions to this...) yet I'm continually amazed at the number of people that show up...  Do we NEED a ribbon when we have some quality folks?  Nope.  They'll still come and do what is needed... ribbon or not.

Volunteer Service.  It's a core value of CAP.  If you think you need a ribbon for it... you need to reexamine what you're here for.

[lordmonar]

I've said this before in other related threads....

I don't care about why someone does something....only in results.  In the real world we reward "good" behavior so that behavior is continued....basic psychology. 

As a leader I am tasked with getting the job done.   As a leader I will use all the tools I can do accomplish my mission.  If a $0.35 piece of cloth gets a desired result.....I'll use it.

If someone is only out for bling....who cares....so long as the job is getting done and they are following through on their commitments.

So....the question is.....as part of our Professional Development we think it builds character to have our officers work with other community based services....should we reward that behavior?

CAP does not have much of a pay off as far as tangible rewards go.  We can't give people raises, or bonuses all we got is ribbons.

Wishing that our people see it as the "right thing" to do is not leadership.  Leadership is motivating people to get the mission done.

[TankerT]

Wishing that our people see it as the "right thing" to do is not leadership. 

Wishing that our people see things as the "right thing" is not leadership.  But convincing them that it is the "right thing" is. 

[Chappie]

On this issue, I am leaning toward TankerT's position.  IMHO, senior members already have a Community Service Ribbon --- it's known as the Membership Ribbon.  Once I became a member of CAP and committed myself to its Core Values and its 3-fold mission, it entailed Community Service -- and more than just 60 hours  .   Received the ribbon on the front end....all the other has been gravy (so to speak).

[Hawk200]

I don't really see a need for seniors to have another ribbon. In the military, officers don't receive Good Conduct Medals, it pretty much goes without saying that their conduct should be good. Seniors shouldn't be working simply for more bling, and there are seniors that really don't care.

I think it should be the same as far as this one goes. If you wanted to permit it's wear by former cadets, I don't really have an issue with it, it's been earned. But seniors don't need any more than what they have. If anything, seniors should have fewer. The ones that get awarded for service would be far more meaningful, instead of just a few more you can get by biding your time. Eventually, everyone could get one.

[lordmonar]

But real officers do get the Outstanding Military Volunteer Service Medal.  Community Service IS considered to be above and beyond the "normal duties" of military personnel and it is considered something of value...otherwise it would not be on all the evaluation forms, and a major criteria in Officer/NCO/Airman of the quarter/year packages.

So if we are going to us the RM as a guide....the community Service Ribbon is equal to the OMVS....not the Good Conduct Medal.

[Hawk200]

But real officers do get the Outstanding Military Volunteer Service Medal.  Community Service IS considered to be above and beyond the "normal duties" of military personnel and it is considered something of value...otherwise it would not be on all the evaluation forms, and a major criteria in Officer/NCO/Airman of the quarter/year packages.

So if we are going to us the RM as a guide....the community Service Ribbon is equal to the OMVS....not the Good Conduct Medal.

They are eligible, I'll grant that. But not many military officers do it for another ribbon. The good ones are more concerned about their troops getting decs, not themselves. It's that selfless service thing.

The Air Force hyped the core values for awhile: "Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do". What kind of example does it set for seniors to just work for a ribbon? I don't think it would be a good example, and I believe that there are others that don't either. There are people that will go earn badges, and then never perform the job again. That's not "selfless service".

[arajca]

Talk about being cynical.

Obviously, those seniors who volunteer their time outside of CAP really do not care about their communities. Geez!

Let's take a positive spin on this...

Many seniors do volunteer their time outside of CAP for many reasons. For the most part, cadets do not see this and, as I have heard from more than one cadet,feel seniors do not have the same level of commitment to their community.

Will some seniors just go after the ribbon? Yes. However, the vast majority seniors won't change their habits just to get a piece of fabric.

What's wrong with CAP recognizing the volunteer work seniors do outside of CAP?

[Major Carrales]

Settle down folks...there are many of us that volunteer all over.  From the RED CROSS, to Fraternal Organizations like the Knights of Columbus; not to mention chuch proper.

I would even go as far as to say that those that serve in Organziations such as CAP do so, not to wear uniforms in the Oberst Klink/Feldwebel Schultz like persona that so many accuse CAP Officers of, but because they actually due want to serve their Community, State and Nation (to some of us that is more than rethoric, it is a way of life)

I can assume that having/not having a ribbon for that would not alter the service many of us give to our communities.  If one should think so, then that one might fundamentally misunderstand the service element of CAP. 

If it means so much, I would suggest any Senior Community Service Award be a Commander initiated award where the situation would be that a Commander would hear of exceptional service (from some member of the community) and investagate it.  This would limit the award (since the Commander would really want to investigate the matter), prevent people from actively seeking it (documenting every little thing) and make it a meaningful activity ribbon.

[SDF_Specialist]

Why not let the seniors who earned it as a cadet still wear it, and encourage them to pursue additional hours? I was proud of my CSR, and was very disappointed when I had to take it off.

[Hawk200]

Talk about being cynical.

Obviously, those seniors who volunteer their time outside of CAP really do not care about their communities. Geez!

Let's take a positive spin on this...

Many seniors do volunteer their time outside of CAP for many reasons. For the most part, cadets do not see this and, as I have heard from more than one cadet,feel seniors do not have the same level of commitment to their community.

Will some seniors just go after the ribbon? Yes. However, the vast majority seniors won't change their habits just to get a piece of fabric.

What's wrong with CAP recognizing the volunteer work seniors do outside of CAP?

How many of those seniors that work outside CAP are actually looking for a ribbon for what they do? Is it really a major demand? Or is it a case of only a certain few that feel that they need to be recognized for every little thing? That's the point I was making of selfless service. Many work now to contribute, and are perfectly happy with the occasional "Thank you for all your help".

I did seven weekends of quake relief after the Northridge quake in '94. The thanks that still means the most to me was the people that would walk up to us on the street and say "Thank you being here, thank you for helping us." I never got a thing for that, but there's not a ribbon in the world that could give me that kind of satisfaction.

[lordmonar]

They are eligible, I'll grant that. But not many military officers do it for another ribbon. The good ones are more concerned about their troops getting decs, not themselves. It's that selfless service thing.

Not in my experince....sure they are looking out for their troops (or more appropriatly they have NCOs for that)...but most seriously everyone in the military IS looking to fill the blocks necessary to get promoted....to include community service.

The Air Force hyped the core values for awhile: "Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do". What kind of example does it set for seniors to just work for a ribbon?

What...I should not get paid for being on AD?  I should not get a medal for doing my job well?  The example it sets...is if you do a good job....if you do the things we ask of you...we will reward you with a little bling.

I don't think it would be a good example, and I believe that there are others that don't either. There are people that will go earn badges, and then never perform the job again. That's not "selfless service".

Selfless service only goes so far in any organisation.

[lordmonar]

How many of those seniors that work outside CAP are actually looking for a ribbon for what they do? Is it really a major demand? Or is it a case of only a certain few that feel that they need to be recognized for every little thing? That's the point I was making of selfless service. Many work now to contribute, and are perfectly happy with the occasional "Thank you for all your help".

I did seven weekends of quake relief after the Northridge quake in '94. The thanks that still means the most to me was the people that would walk up to us on the street and say "Thank you being here, thank you for helping us." I never got a thing for that, but there's not a ribbon in the world that could give me that kind of satisfaction.

What is so wrong with recognising those who do outside work?  Most SM will not care one way or the other.  Some SM will submit their paper work and get their ribbon.  Once and a while....you will get some guy who only goes out to help people for 60+ hour just to get the ribbon and never do anything again.   So what's the down side?  If the guy did it just for the ribbon....so what?   The end result is what we are looking for.  The value added is that someone gave 60+ hours of his/her time to the community for a cost of around $1.50 for the ribbon, paperwork and postage.  This is a bad thing?

[Hawk200]

The Air Force hyped the core values for awhile: "Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do". What kind of example does it set for seniors to just work for a ribbon?

What...I should not get paid for being on AD?  I should not get a medal for doing my job well?  The example it sets...is if you do a good job....if you do the things we ask of you...we will reward you with a little bling.

It's completely amazing how far you blew that out of proportion. Going over and above is what awards are for, not just doing your job. You do your job, you get paid. You go the extra mile, that's what you should get decs for. It's an award to you, but it also shows others that you did more. There are plenty of "biding your time" decs in the military. Feeling a sense of entitlement to awards, just because you're doing your job is selfish.

I don't think it would be a good example, and I believe that there are others that don't either. There are people that will go earn badges, and then never perform the job again. That's not "selfless service".

Selfless service only goes so far in any organisation.

If that's what you want to believe. I know plenty of people that do it because they get to help others. It's the honorable thing.

[mikeylikey]

They are eligible, I'll grant that. But not many military officers do it for another ribbon. The good ones are more concerned about their troops getting decs, not themselves. It's that selfless service thing.

Not in my experince....sure they are looking out for their troops (or more appropriatly they have NCOs for that)...but most seriously everyone in the military IS looking to fill the blocks necessary to get promoted....to include community service.

+1  I was volunterring way longer in CAP than I even knew about the ribbon.   

[Timothy]

I also do not think it should be a senior ribbon, for reasons already stated... it is expected that we perform community service.

I agree that it may be a motivator, but at a certain point you need to draw the line on what a ribbon can be for. In my mind the litmus test is... if an active duty AF airman came up to me and asked me what my ribbons were for, and I named them would I be embarrassed by any? I would probably be embarrased when I got to "community service," which is on the verge of things like the "dress and appearance," "good conduct," and "good attendance" awards. These are all things that we should be doing already, as basic members of the CAP. If you want to encourage people to do community service, set up a certificate program at the Sqdn or group level recognizing people at the awards ceremonies... a pat on the back and something to frame, but not another ribbon.

Regarding the OVSM, I am pretty sure the ratio of issued senior community service ribbons will be MUCH larger than the amount of OVSM's issued, which calls for a "distinct and lasting community service achievement."

But this is all just me. By the same token, I will never wear my "CAP membership ribbon," because it... identifies you as a member of cap... which the uniform does anyway.

[arajca]

But this is all just me. By the same token, I will never wear my "CAP membership ribbon," because it... identifies you as a member of cap... which the uniform does anyway.

Actually, the Membership ribbon indentifies that you completed Level I. If it just denoted membership, cadets would get it as well.

[Eclipse]

But this is all just me. By the same token, I will never wear my "CAP membership ribbon," because it... identifies you as a member of cap... which the uniform does anyway.

Um, what?

[Major Carrales]

But this is all just me. By the same token, I will never wear my "CAP membership ribbon," because it... identifies you as a member of cap... which the uniform does anyway.

Um, what?

The Membership Ribbon shows one has completed a CAP Level (Level I), not that one is a member.  I imagine one could say the same thing for the National Defense Service ribbon and other ribbons of that nature since, after all, wearing the Uniform of one of the Services already shows you are defening the nation. 

[lordmonar]

Regarding the OVSM, I am pretty sure the ratio of issued senior community service ribbons will be MUCH larger than the amount of OVSM's issued, which calls for a "distinct and lasting community service achievement."

Again....not in my experince.  What lasting community service means...you don't get it for a single event....but at the end of a tour (aobut 3 years) you just jumble all you community service activities down on paper.  2-3 paragraphs.  I have seen people get the OVSM for as little as maybe  10 hours of actual service spread over 2 years time.

I got my OVSM for about 40 hours of documented work with the Red Cross and Boy Scouts over a 18 month period.

But this is all just me. By the same token, I will never wear my "CAP membership ribbon," because it... identifies you as a member of cap... which the uniform does anyway.

So maybe I should take off my Basic Training Ribbon.

Your first mistake.....being embarassed by YOUR CAP ribbons compared to an AD airman and HIS AD ribbons.   Let's not compare apples and oragnes.

Finally.....extra community service is NOT expect of CAP members.......if it were, it would be part of our PD/promotion requirments.

[James Shaw]

Any final word on this. I know it was passed and approved at the NB.