No beards for cadets

[RiverAux]

Clarification on cadet grooming standards in corporate uniforms:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_07_15_Cadet_Grooming_Standards.pdf

1. All cadet members must meet the grooming standards prescribed for AF-style uniforms in Attachment 2 of CAPM 39-1 whenever wearing a CAP Uniform, including CAP Distinctive Uniforms as well as USAF-style Uniforms. Exceptions may be made at the discretion of the National Commander as necessary to comply with the law.
2. When the National Board and National Executive Committee expanded uniform choices available to cadets to include uniforms previously worn only by senior members, the intention was to allow for those cadets not meeting the weight standards to have an authorized CAP uniform to wear. It was not changed to allow cadets to choose whether or not they would meet the grooming standards.

[MIKE]

IIRC, this policy just reinforces the previously established policy that was omitted from the current CAPR 52-16.

I wish they would get rid of the longer sideburns for cadets though... and possibly mustaches too.

[CASH172]

I'm for getting rid of the sideburn rule as well.  What laws would require the CAP/CC to make exceptions? 

[♠SARKID♠]

I'm for getting rid of the sideburn rule as well.  What laws would require the CAP/CC to make exceptions? 

Some religions/factions-therof ban the shaving of beards.  Exceptions would have to be made to be within non-discrimination laws.

[Dad2-4]

Possible scenario: an older Shia or Sunni cadet cannot, for religious purposes, be required to shave, and therefore could likely obtain permission to wear the distinctive uniform with a beard.
We had a Shia student in 8th grade at my school last year that was wearing a closely groomed beard.

[mikeylikey]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard. 

[Hawk200]

I wish they would get rid of the longer sideburns for cadets though... and possibly mustaches too.

Sideburns, yeah. Why mustaches?

[mikeylikey]

^ Unfortunately sideburns are coming back in style.  Mustaches on the other hand.......get a razor. 

[Nathan]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard. 

I don't agree with either. The uniform should be... well, uniform. If need be, just ditch the USAF uniforms altogether, if we're going to get teary-eyed over SOME people not getting to wear it, and stick with corperate for everyone.

[arajca]

Duck and Cover Peoples!!!

[Hawk200]

Duck and Cover Peoples!!!

No kidding!

[Major Carrales]

Oh...here comes that sinking feeling.

[Hawk200]

Oh...here comes that sinking feeling.

I'm pretty sure that's the whole boat! 

[0]

Let's be proactive and stop that which we know is coming and just stick the facial fur on the cadets.  Or the lack there of that should be.   

[Major Carrales]

Let's be proactive and stop that which we know is coming and just stick the facial fur on the cadets.  Or the lack there of that should be.   

Well said, items of ridicule or harsh criticism best be left to PM or un-said!!!

[stratoflyer]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard.

He or she has a beard?

What the heck is that?

[mikeylikey]

^ Just covering all the bases.  Don't want the ladies to feel left out. 

Actually........it was a slip.   

[Frenchie]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard.

He or she has a beard?

What the heck is that?

Ah yes, reminds me of my first love back in my circus days.  I can still feel her beard.

[hatentx]

You know I dont get the beard thing no matter what you religious up brining.  If you joined the military they would not make an exception for you.  I knew of one guy who was Jewish and would shave on the sabbath.  He was so annoying about the NCOs just turned a blind eye to him.  I realize that is active duty but still.  I would say weight would be a bigger deturant than anything else.  I dont see and issue with mustaches as long as it is in regs and sideburns as well.  I am not saying high and tights for everyone and realize that they should not be help to the same standard as the RM but they should have some sorta of military imagine to them or not wear the uniform.  I know it is a "CAP uniform" but it looks a lot like and Air Force one to the untrained Eye.

[mikeylikey]

^ All my time in the Army, the standing orders were shave, unless you have a medical condition that would be made worse by shaving.  That was done so that NBC equipment (gas masks) can have a clean seal and would work properly should the need arise.  I never had nor have I served with anyone that tried to cite religious reasons for not shaving their beard areas.  I did have one soldier who could not shave for two weeks until the herpes cleared up, did not want to spread it around.

As far as this goes, it is silly to tell a cadet to shave.  Hypothetically, you can have an 20 year old cadet with a beard who is ordered to shave it off, and then have an 18 year old Flight Officer keep his beard, but wear distinctive uniforms. 

BUT CAP is A-OK with not promoting a healthy body weight.  "OK Cadet you are 350 pounds, here is your special ordered XXXXLARGE BDU uniform". 

Lets get priorities straight here.  This is silliness.   

[PHall]

^ All my time in the Army, the standing orders were shave, unless you have a medical condition that would be made worse by shaving.  That was done so that NBC equipment (gas masks) can have a clean seal and would work properly should the need arise.  I never had nor have I served with anyone that tried to cite religious reasons for not shaving their beard areas.  I did have one soldier who could not shave for two weeks until the herpes cleared up, did not want to spread it around.

As far as this goes, it is silly to tell a cadet to shave.  Hypothetically, you can have an 20 year old cadet with a beard who is ordered to shave it off, and then have an 18 year old Flight Officer keep his beard, but wear distinctive uniforms. 

BUT CAP is A-OK with not promoting a healthy body weight.  "OK Cadet you are 350 pounds, here is your special ordered XXXXLARGE BDU uniform". 

Lets get priorities straight here.  This is silliness.   

You've obviously confused CAP with something it is not, the military.

CAP is CAP and the military is the military.

They are not interchangable and do not work well together.

[sarflyer]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have a regulation, CAPM 39-1.  Follow it and there are no problems.  The letter posted yesterday by the national CC makes it pretty clear. 

If you don't like a particular section, make a request for a change.

Work within the rules and you won't have problems.  Work outside the rules and there could be consequences.

And Mikey, your just wrong my friend.  God I hope you were being sarcastic! 

[Dad2-4]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have a regulation, CAPM 39-1.  Follow it and there are no problems.  The letter posted yesterday by the national CC makes it pretty clear. 

If you don't like a particular section, make a request for a change.

Work within the rules and you won't have problems.  Work outside the rules and there could be consequences.

+1

[Frenchie]

^ All my time in the Army, the standing orders were shave, unless you have a medical condition that would be made worse by shaving.  That was done so that NBC equipment (gas masks) can have a clean seal and would work properly should the need arise.  I never had nor have I served with anyone that tried to cite religious reasons for not shaving their beard areas.  I did have one soldier who could not shave for two weeks until the herpes cleared up, did not want to spread it around.

As far as this goes, it is silly to tell a cadet to shave.  Hypothetically, you can have an 20 year old cadet with a beard who is ordered to shave it off, and then have an 18 year old Flight Officer keep his beard, but wear distinctive uniforms. 

BUT CAP is A-OK with not promoting a healthy body weight.  "OK Cadet you are 350 pounds, here is your special ordered XXXXLARGE BDU uniform". 

Lets get priorities straight here.  This is silliness.   

You've obviously confused CAP with something it is not, the military.

CAP is CAP and the military is the military.

They are not interchangable and do not work well together.

I thought he contrasted the two quite well and he doesn't seem to be the one confused.

[Major Carrales]

^ All my time in the Army, the standing orders were shave, unless you have a medical condition that would be made worse by shaving.  That was done so that NBC equipment (gas masks) can have a clean seal and would work properly should the need arise.  I never had nor have I served with anyone that tried to cite religious reasons for not shaving their beard areas.  I did have one soldier who could not shave for two weeks until the herpes cleared up, did not want to spread it around.

As far as this goes, it is silly to tell a cadet to shave.  Hypothetically, you can have an 20 year old cadet with a beard who is ordered to shave it off, and then have an 18 year old Flight Officer keep his beard, but wear distinctive uniforms. 

BUT CAP is A-OK with not promoting a healthy body weight.  "OK Cadet you are 350 pounds, here is your special ordered XXXXLARGE BDU uniform". 

Lets get priorities straight here.  This is silliness.   

You've obviously confused CAP with something it is not, the military.

CAP is CAP and the military is the military.

They are not interchangable and do not work well together.

I thought he contrasted the two quite well and he doesn't seem to be the one confused.

PHall is correct on many levels.  What works for the Military does not always work for CAP.  Lots of Active Duty and retired officer's command style and understanding of certain military modus operandi are often at odds with how CAP has to work because of its pure volunteer nature.

The trick is to find what works and go with it and what does not and discard it.  That is a balance that must be reached and accepted, if not certain frustrations will destroy the integrity of the commander and, if not, cause the unit to die a slow death and painful.

In other words, if a SARex is coming up this weekend and a Commander "orders" the staff to be there and certain people have the "committments of life" (be they what they may be) the same course of action that would happen in the military would be met with "voting with one's feet."  What would you do if the COMM officer could not attend?  A foul letter in the file?  Dismissal?  2B? 

You want people to enjoy their service to CAP, heavy handed tactics of the like that Congress allows the armed forces will never work for the type of organization CAP is.

[Eclipse]

I think the rules were clear as published previously.

This ICL tells me we had cadets out there trying to make the argument that they could wear the distinctive uniforms and then blow-off grooming.

I could totally see some 15-year-old Nugentesuqe "rocker" trying this.

[Eclipse]

You've obviously confused CAP with something it is not, the military.

CAP is CAP and the military is the military.

They are not interchangeable and do not work well together.

While I agree they are not interchangeable, in many places they work very well together.

If your Comm guy is directed to show up, and he can't, you don't have comms.  Its on the commanders to explain why the whole operation is dependent on one person.   That's a plan and staffing failing.

If your Comm guy commits to being there and doesn't show up, he's fodder for any and all consequences applicable.

To Major Carreles' points, the single biggest difference between CAP and any military, or even civilian, service is that the word "order" does not exist in CAP.  "Orders" (assuming they are legal) are instructions which must be carried out completely, immediately, and without interpretation, under penalty of criminal and civil law which may include incarceration or even death.

In CAP we have regulations and directives - failure to comply may result in loss of grade, restriction from a given activity, or even termination of membership, but they have no weight of criminal law (and little, if any, civil law, though dereliction in an ES environment could have monetary consequences).

Understanding the difference and nuance in the above is a key to success in CAP as a commander.

[stratoflyer]

I do believe that CAP has somewhat of a reputation for ambiguities in the regs. There were some very valid points out there, but truly, we are volunteers and the expectations of seniors are different than those of cadets, as they should be.

I do think that it should not be the case where an overweight cadet feels "special treatment" and be allowed to wear a distinctive uniform. As far as beards, we do need to have a professional image and on cadets, a beard is definitely a no-no. I personally wear a goatee with the grey uniform, but I keep it very neat and professional looking. I used to have long hair and I cut it. Image is very important, especially in this organization. So overweight cadets should be inspired to change their lifestyles as much as possible to exhibit a professional attitude about their bodies, as well as their duties.

[Ned]

Guys,

For better or worse, I was the requester for this particular ICL.  Let me explain.  No, that would take too long, let me sum up:

Background:  For the first 40-50 years of the cadet program, we had a pretty clear set of rules.  Cadets wore USAF style uniforms only and had to meet the USAF grooming standards.  (There was a slight bit of slack on the sideburns, which is almost certainly a relic from the '60s and '70s.)

Then, roughly 1985 or so (I could be off a bit here), the AF said that all members over 18 had to meet the USAF height/weight standards (+10%) to wear USAF style uniforms, including cadets.  Anecdotally, it is my understanding that they were reacting to a few severely overweight seniors, and the cadets just got caught in the backblast.

In any event, at that point overweight cadets over 18 (hereinafter "OCO18") had only one option - the blazer uniform.  No other corporates were authorized for cadets. 

This was unsatisfactory in several respects. 

• First, at about $200, it was expensive for anyone, but especially for a cadet. 
• Second, cadets could not wear ribbons, badges, cords, etc. earned as a cadet.  (That affected seniors too, of course, but the seniors had other uniform options like the grey ghost uniform.  And the cadet program uses the uniform as a training tool in accomplishing our goals.)
• Third,  there was simply no authorized field or utility uniform for OCO18.  T-shirts and jeans in the field.
  
• Fourth, although it is never easy for anyone, the "ostracizing" effect of a dramatically different uniform in a formation or activity setting contributed to a retention hit for OCO18.

So a group of us began working for a solution.  The NB did not agree to our first solution -- simply authorizing the grey uniform for OCO18.  But working with our volunteer leaders on the NB, the  BBDU/BFU and the CSU were subsequently authorized for OCO18 crowd.  And there was much rejoicing.

However, the implementation went slightly askew at the staff level.  When the 39-1 was revised, the portion that said "seniors only" was changed, but the part a couple of lines down about "grooming standards do not apply to members wearing this uniform" was not changed.

So we would up with an ambiguous situation in the 39-1.  Imagine that.

Although it was never a major problem, we did have a few male OCO18 troops show up to an encampment in BBDU and with long hair that they declined to cut.

So, Gen Courter decided to clarify that it was never the intention of the NB/NEC to relax grooming standards for cadets.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[mikeylikey]

^ Awesome.  Now......since you have the ear of the leadership....I need a new plane, van, uniforms for my cadets and some $$ !!!!

[stratoflyer]

Well, that makes a lot of sense.

[flyguy06]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard. 

I don't agree with either. The uniform should be... well, uniform. If need be, just ditch the USAF uniforms altogether, if we're going to get teary-eyed over SOME people not getting to wear it, and stick with corperate for everyone.

Nathan,

If yougot rid of militayuniforms inthe cadet program, youwould see a serious drop in cadet membership. cadet for the most part join CAP "for" the military part of it. not all do, but I would say 85% do

[Nathan]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard. 

I don't agree with either. The uniform should be... well, uniform. If need be, just ditch the USAF uniforms altogether, if we're going to get teary-eyed over SOME people not getting to wear it, and stick with corperate for everyone.

Nathan,

If yougot rid of militayuniforms inthe cadet program, youwould see a serious drop in cadet membership. cadet for the most part join CAP "for" the military part of it. not all do, but I would say 85% do

Boy Scouts seems to do pretty well without "military uniforms", and our corperate uniforms seem to be much more military looking than theirs.

Haven't you ever heard some random person point to someone in a CAP USAF uniform and say, "Look, an Army guy!"?

We have enough of a military uniform to get by on for those joining for the "military aspect." The differences are much more noticible to us who have been around the uniform quite a bit, but those joining for the uniform likely won't know or care about the difference.

[Tubacap]

The Boy Scouts of America uniform was actually an early U.S. Army uniform.  The Boy Scout program was originally based on an English military model by Lord Robert Baden Powell.  All of which are military.  Although not nearly as strictly enforced as in CAP, there is provision in the BSA for "cleanliness" which could be loosely connected back.

The idea is that America's youth is probably striving for a need for a disciplined organization.  Both BSA and CAP provide these venues.

On the topic of beards, my vote is to, yet again, follow current USAF guidance as the cadets are wearing those uniforms.  The vast majority of the cadets that join have no issue with this at all.  In fact, the last influx of cadets I had were the shaggiest I have seen in awhile, and all of them have gotten significantly shortened haircuts because of our staff asking them to get a haircut.

Beards... nay... I don't even like seeing them on students at school.  Sideburns, I don't think that is appropriate either for the current "professional" environment.  The ICL, I like it.

[flyguy06]

^ I don't understand National sometimes.  It's OK for a cadet to be 800 pounds and wear AF style, but heaven forbid he or she has a beard. 

I don't agree with either. The uniform should be... well, uniform. If need be, just ditch the USAF uniforms altogether, if we're going to get teary-eyed over SOME people not getting to wear it, and stick with corperate for everyone.

Nathan,

If yougot rid of militayuniforms inthe cadet program, youwould see a serious drop in cadet membership. cadet for the most part join CAP "for" the military part of it. not all do, but I would say 85% do

Boy Scouts seems to do pretty well without "military uniforms", and our corperate uniforms seem to be much more military looking than theirs.

Haven't you ever heard some random person point to someone in a CAP USAF uniform and say, "Look, an Army guy!"?

We have enough of a military uniform to get by on for those joining for the "military aspect." The differences are much more noticible to us who have been around the uniform quite a bit, but those joining for the uniform likely won't know or care about the difference.

Youth dont join the BSA for the "military" aspect. most youth do join CAP for the "military" aspect, so you cant compare the two in that respect.

[Nathan]

You didn't read the rest of my post, then.

Most people don't seem to have a concept that the military uniforms are, in fact, different from each other. Most run-of-the-mill civilians seem to think that anyone in camo must be in the Army, regardless of blue nametapes that say otherwise.

Given that, the corperate uniforms are essentially military uniforms, just of a different color and they are not actually worn by any member of the actual armed services. But it still LOOKS military to the untrained eye (ie, recruits), so as long as we have that aspect down, we're good to go.

BTW, I think you would be hard pressed to say that "most" youth join CAP for the military aspect. I think that there are certainly a great number of them who join to fly, or to do search and rescue, as I did. And certainly we wouldn't have the numbers that we do if the overwhelming majority of people who joined did so for the military aspect, since they will likely be quickly disappointed by how NOT like the military we can be.

You might be right by saying "most", but I don't think that it's as far over the halfway point as you seem to imply.

[flyguy06]

You'll have to excuse me. I have never worn the CAP corporate uniform. I only wear three uniforms in CAP, the BDU and the AF blue. i wear the flight suit occasionally when I fly. So I really dont know anything about the other uniforms. I think CAP has too many uniforms. Why not just wear the AF style uniform if you meet height and wweight and if donot then wear the blue shirt/grey slacks. That should be it nothing else. Its simple but folks have made it so confusing withall these other uniform types. So I just wear the three ai wear. and leave it at that.

[MIKE]

Why not just wear the AF style uniform if you meet height and wweight and if donot then wear the blue shirt/grey slacks. That should be it nothing else.

... and grooming... otherwise it's off topic.

Agreed... but then I think the majority of the senior membership would disgree and say that we ain't the ACA or ATC.

[flyguy06]

Well, staying on topic, I agree that cadets do not need beards.

[Frenchie]

Well, staying on topic, I agree that cadets do not need beards.

The problem is, if you have a cadet who wears a beard for religious reasons, you can't compel them to get rid of it as a condition for membership.

[arajca]

A religious exception is an exception to the rule. The rule should be no beards for cadets. As has been stated many times on CAPTalk, rules and policies are not made for the exception, they are made for the vast majority.

So, if a cadet's religion requires them to wear a beard, a waiver can be applied for. The application will describe the reason for the waiver, including references.

[flyguy06]

Yeah, what he said.

[SM-MADDOG]

Ok I have a question. I've been researching into the regulations and other items to figure out the requirements for Cadets to Wear what CAP calls AF style uniforms. The woodland camo as I understand is AF Style. My question is if a cadet does not meet the weight/height chart he/she is not allowed to wear the woodland camo? For Seniors Im told we cant wear the woodland camo if we dont meet the weight chart. I take issue with this. Why should We not be allowed to wear a woodland camo BDU, yet you can wear the same BDU only its Blue instead of woodland camo color. Im looking to challenge CAP on this policy anyway I can. It makes no sense to Me what so ever. They say its a AF style, ok, its also army style, its also a law enforcement style, milita unit style. And as we know the Milita is Private Citizens Defense that is allowed by the Federal and many state laws and even constituions. I have discussed this with other people who are in and not in cap, they all say its wrong, the ones not in CAP say they wouldnt join because of that, they said why pay membership dues to have them tell you that pretty much oh, you dont meet out chart so you cant wear that woodland camo, but heres the same BDU its just blue.

I love CAP and loving serving my country anyway I can, so please dont take the above comments as saying CAP is bad or anything is bad, its not, but I think of course we have issues at times and some things need to be changed (revised) etc. I have been serving in some way since I was 16 when i became a police explorer and im a private officer now.

Stay Safe Everyone  

Public Affairs Officer
Emergency Services
Cadet Program Officer   

^ All my time in the Army, the standing orders were shave, unless you have a medical condition that would be made worse by shaving.  That was done so that NBC equipment (gas masks) can have a clean seal and would work properly should the need arise.  I never had nor have I served with anyone that tried to cite religious reasons for not shaving their beard areas.  I did have one soldier who could not shave for two weeks until the herpes cleared up, did not want to spread it around.


As far as this goes, it is silly to tell a cadet to shave.  Hypothetically, you can have an 20 year old cadet with a beard who is ordered to shave it off, and then have an 18 year old Flight Officer keep his beard, but wear distinctive uniforms. 

BUT CAP is A-OK with not promoting a healthy body weight.  "OK Cadet you are 350 pounds, here is your special ordered XXXXLARGE BDU uniform". 

Lets get priorities straight here.  This is silliness.   

[jimmydeanno]

Ok I have a question. I've been researching into the regulations and other items to figure out the requirements for Cadets to Wear what CAP calls AF style uniforms. The woodland camo as I understand is AF Style. My question is if a cadet does not meet the weight/height chart he/she is not allowed to wear the woodland camo?

Cadets under the age of 18 do not have to meet the weight requirement and can wear the AF style uniforms regardless.  They do need to adhere to the grooming standards.

Cadets over 18 that do not meet the weight requirement must wear the corporate style uniforms.

For Seniors Im told we cant wear the woodland camo if we dont meet the weight chart. I take issue with this. Why should We not be allowed to wear a woodland camo BDU, yet you can wear the same BDU only its Blue instead of woodland camo color.

Because it isn't the same uniform.  The AF style uniforms are "controlled" by the AF.  They even gave us some slack and increased the allowable weight for them already. 

Im looking to challenge CAP on this policy anyway I can.

Good Luck.

[SM-MADDOG]

Thank you for the reply, I did remember reading that somewhere that a cadet age 18 or over had to meet the weight requirement. So a cadet under 18 can wear any AF uniform if they dont meet the requirement but a Senior Member (Officer) cant wear an AF type uniform if they dont meet the weight/height chart.

So as being AF controlled why are the woodland camo BDU AF Controlled? 

Stay Safe    

[TankerT]

A religious exception is an exception to the rule. The rule should be no beards for cadets. As has been stated many times on CAPTalk, rules and policies are not made for the exception, they are made for the vast majority.

So, if a cadet's religion requires them to wear a beard, a waiver can be applied for. The application will describe the reason for the waiver, including references.

I don't think there is a policy that allows for waivers in the regulations.

[DC]

Thank you for the reply, I did remember reading that somewhere that a cadet age 18 or over had to meet the weight requirement. So a cadet under 18 can wear any AF uniform if they dont meet the requirement but a Senior Member (Officer) cant wear an AF type uniform if they dont meet the weight/height chart.

So as being AF controlled why are the woodland camo BDU AF Controlled? 

Stay Safe    

The Air Force has control over how CAP wears uniforms that the Air Force wears. BDUs are still an authorized uniform in the Air Force, so they have control over how CAP wears it. I'm sure it is a little more complicated than that, but that is the basic relationship there.

[SM-MADDOG]

Yes it makes more sense now why CAP dont allow it because its "AF Controlled". And your are right it probably is a little more complicated than that lol. 

Thank you for the reply, I did remember reading that somewhere that a cadet age 18 or over had to meet the weight requirement. So a cadet under 18 can wear any AF uniform if they dont meet the requirement but a Senior Member (Officer) cant wear an AF type uniform if they dont meet the weight/height chart.

So as being AF controlled why are the woodland camo BDU AF Controlled? 

Stay Safe    

The Air Force has control over how CAP wears uniforms that the Air Force wears. BDUs are still an authorized uniform in the Air Force, so they have control over how CAP wears it. I'm sure it is a little more complicated than that, but that is the basic relationship there.