2B or not 2B

[Eclipse]

You could also file criminal legal charges against him for text message harassment, or at the least get a restraining order, however from an internal CAP perspective, I would think anytime two members are in RO-territory, one of them is still eligible for a 2b.

You might also be able to block his sender ID's, phone numbers, etc., from your text service (again, the high-road).

Sounds like a bad situation, and one where higher HQ is not minding the store properly - there's always region...

[birdog]

Unfortunately as I was informed by a former IG and Wing commander: Once my unit loses the appeal it's done. Next time my Grp CC is up I will make sure he gets the file which does have documentation of his misconduct and let him deal with it.

[mikeylikey]

^ Unless you are presenting the same info where the member already won his appeal.  That would be a case of Double Jeopardy.  In fact, any previous cited incidents that already were disposed of at the appeal are inadmissible.

You need to start documenting new items, not regurgitating old ones.

As far as the text messaging goes, that is somewhat hard to prove.  It is a circumstantial transmission, and he can fight that.  Emails are the same, unless you get a private dick and investigate source codes, IP addresses etc.

I would say chalk this thing up as a learning experience and distance yourself from it.  It sounds like he is bitter and wants to drag some people down to his level.

Why does he want your units equipment back if he transfered to another unit??  Did you take uniforms or something from him??       

[birdog]

We retrieved uniforms that had not been issued very long. That's all he had. I don't believe it was a formal appeal because we were never given a chance to present all of our evidence. As a matter of fact we didn't find out about it at all until it was all over. My CC hadn't even had a chance to put the 2B in the mail to the cadet yet. It was handed to the Grp CC as a courtesy so he would know what was going on ahead of time. The part where I guess I screwed up was doing it at the wing staff meeting during a break. The wing CV saw it and didn't like it. If he had never seen it than it probably would have gone through.

[mikeylikey]

^ You can take back BDU's and blues owned by the unit, but you can't take back the free cadet uniform, unless he quits CAP altogether.

Anyway......good luck with that guy.  Sounds like he needs a quick beat down so he will grow up.

[birdog]

We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

[Eclipse]

As far as the text messaging goes, that is somewhat hard to prove.  It is a circumstantial transmission, and he can fight that.  Emails are the same, unless you get a private dick and investigate source codes, IP addresses etc.

Text messages are easy to trace, and usually are self-incriminating as they nearly always originate from a telephone number (unless he's sending them from vtext or something).  Your phone bill might even have a detail of the sender, and certainly your phone company should be able to provide that.

Emails are a somewhat different story as you can spoof headers, say someone stole your password, etc., but even a little sleuthing with the header and other sources should be enough to tell you who is doing it.

Restraining orders don't require conviction-level evidence, just enough indications someone is being threatening or harrasing.

We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

Don't play games, give him his stuff and move on - he's still a GTM, he's still in CAP, and people over your paygrade have decided its going to stay that way at least for a while.

The Wing will just issue him a new ROA (its not like these are checked for physical possession very often anyway), and anything else you choose to withhold.

You will likely make more trouble for yourself than the cadet and there's no point in it.  Your comments here alone are enough to tell us he is getting under your skin far more than he should.

[birdog]

We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

Don't play games, give him his stuff and move on - he's still a GTM, he's still in CAP, and people over your paygrade have decided its going to stay that way at least for a while.

The Wing will just issue him a new ROA (its not like these are checked for physical possession very often anyway), and anything else you choose to withhold.

You will likely make more trouble for yourself than the cadet and there's no point in it.  Your comments here alone are enough to tell us he is getting under your skin far more than he should.

To say that he gets under my skin doesn't quite do the feeling justice. But since I'm not the one making the decisions that's a moot point.

As to the playing games. He willingly(without being asked) turned in his cards when he "quit." If it comes down that we return them then they will be returned. As to the uniforms: if I must return the blues than so be it(it's a regulatory gray area. He did quit. But now wants back in and it was around a year after he got them.) But the 2 pieces of BDU's (pants and boots) are from squadron supply and will only be returned under protest.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....

First off Birdog....don't set yourself up for an IG complain for retaliation.

You tried to 2b him and it got overturned.

Second......there is NO SUCH THING as "SQUADRON PROPERTY".    So don't get too wrapped up about having to reissue BDUs.

Sure he quit...(turned in his card) but he changed his mind and you tried to 2b him and that failed.

Now you say he is a member of the group.....well that may or not be the case....either way....give his unifroms back, give him his records (including his ROA card) and send him on his way.

His new squadron CC will have to deal with him.  But don't make it harder for him...as that will only set you up for failure.

By your comments here.....he already has grounds for an IG complain.....so cut the BS and move on.

[PWK-GT]

As to "there not being any Squadron property", I would have to say that'ts not entirely true.

In my case, any uniforms procured by the unit are 'issued out' on a CAPF 111, signed by the recipient and the LGS, and the member told that they are to return them upon leaving the roster. Upon a transfer out, they have the option to replace or return said items.

I also know of transfers that were held up pending 'property return' issues like this......and were upheld.

But, if this was never officially recorded, good luck with that.

YMMV.....

[mikeylikey]

Uniforms (other than the free cadet uniform) are expendable property, meaning they can be written as "loss".  Now, for the Free Cadet Uniform, you have a one year window, that once that threshold is reached becomes the property of the cadet.

I have to agree with NED above, consider it a loss, give the cadet his junk back and hope he doesn't approach your unit or its members ever again. 

[tribalelder]

If the cadet is the problem, there will ALWAYS be future grounds for termination.  It will just be someone else's problem. 

Over the years, I've helped 30+ people become ex-members, as appeal authority, board member and/or charges ghost-writer.  When I appear in blues, people ask "Who's in trouble ?"

When you get your next 2b candidate-

1)  Ask the Appeal Authority to line up a board and get you dates for a hearing.  Schedule a hearing date in the time window that meets the reg before you send the notice.

2) Put the reserved hearing date in the notice, with the caveat that the hearing must be requested in writing within the time limit AND that an alternate date can be requested.  Nothing says 'we're ready' like reserving a hearing date.

3)  Make sure your charges really are terminable offenses. 

'Uniform violations or wearing unearned grade' -- probably NOT. 

Instead 'continuing and recurring violations despite corrections' -in an ES/youth program organization with aviation, inability/unwillingness to follow instructions is BIG ticket.

'Making CC crazy ' - NOT

'Conduct unbecoming, specifically persistently disruptive to administration of Squadron by...(explain here) -MAYBE


4)  Don't forget about demotion.  It works best on the 15% of our membership that is more in love with the uniform and its bling than with CAP's missions.  Probably won't work well on anybody who wore the smurf suit, however.  Their sense of bling is distorted.

[cnitas]

Probably won't work well on anybody who wore the smurf suit, however.  Their sense of bling is distorted.

  Now THAT was funny!

[Al Sayre]

Where you went wrong is checking the "Misconduct" box on the right.  You should have checked the "Voluntary Resignation" Block on the left.  Write him a letter "It is with deep sadness I accept your voluntary resignation as evidenced by your (preferably written) statement of resignation and relinquishing of your CAPID card yadda yadda yadda."  Form goes directly to NHQ (attach a copy of his written resignation); No "Approving authority", no appeal, no headache.

CAPR 35-3

6. Termination Procedures. When a unit commander determines
that it is appropriate to terminate an individual's CAP
membership, the following procedures will be followed:
a. For reasons not involving misconduct or termination for
cause, the unit commander will prepare a CAP Form 2B,
"Request for Termination of CAP Membership," in three
copies. The original copy will be mailed to National
Headquarters; the second copy will be mailed to the member's
last known address; and the third copy will be retained in the
unit's file

He can then re-apply later if he wants and you can always say "Thanks but no thanks".

[flyerthom]

I've not initiated contact with him except to retrieve my gear. He keeps texting me. Usually to start a fight.

Check with your cell provider. It may be possible to block his number from reaching you. You should also do this with your home hard line.

[lordmonar]

I've not initiated contact with him except to retrieve my gear. He keeps texting me. Usually to start a fight.

Check with your cell provider. It may be possible to block his number from reaching you. You should also do this with your home hard line.

Or simply foward the text messages to his new commander and ask him to help stop the communications.  That way you provide him with ammunition to do his own 2b if need be.

[mmizner]

It seems pretty straight forward.

1.  He handed you his card and verbally quit.  Fill out a 2b stating the cadet withdrew, "Voluntary Resignation", from the program.  Done!
2.  You are the commander, right?  It is your decision not the group CC.  If there is an appeal then it will be on the group cc to make a decision.
3.  Tell the gaining Sqd CC the issues and if he wants to take him, fine.  No longer your problem..  And maybe the new commander will get through to the kid.  (not likely)

Sorry to be so gruff...  I really upsets me when good people are troubled with problem cadets.

Good Luck ...  Tells us the outcome..

[NavLT]

I realize that there is a negative stigma about 2B a member, particularly a cadet.  Howerver, there is the good of the organization to consider, keeping bad apples in a unit or just shuffling them to another unit is bad practice.  In the case that started the string the history (if documented) is pretty solid.  How much internal damage can a rotten person do to an organization if allowed to hang around and influnce people and affect missions?

I hope that the Wing involvment you mentioned is just a lack of clear understanding of the situation.  If it is a "Wing Staffer" I would hope that the Group CC that you convinced meets with his boss the Wing CC and pushes your case.

What would a cadet transfered to the Wing holding Squadron do anyway?

V/R
Lt J.

[mikeylikey]

What would a cadet transferred to the Wing holding Squadron do anyway?

Nothing!  That may be the point.  Perhaps we are waiting for a non-renewal!!