Outwear and headgear with mess dress

[Eclipse]

This was raised as a question while doing a uniform presentation this week.

Is a member wearing mess dress authorized to wear the standard trench-style coat over it for bad weather?

If so, would they then wear a flight cap or service cap when the jacket is on (as normally no headgear is worn with mess dress, but in this case you'd hardly be able to tell they aren't in standard service dress).

If the trench isn't authorized with mess dress, what do you wear in bad weather?

A cite always helps...

[Pylon]

It's in the 39-1 tables.  Yes, those full length overcoats are an authorized outergarment for mess dress, as are the gray wool scarves.

No, headgear is not worn.  You're in mess dress.  Mess dress has no headgear.  It doesn't matter if you wear an outergarment over it.

Since I have worn the overcoat with mess dress, you can most certainly tell the difference between someone who has in mess dress and someone who is in service dress.  The bow-tie sticking out prominently gives it away.    The combo actually looks very sharp in the winter.

[Chappie]

Common sense would lead one to believe that the all-weather overcoat would be appropriate wear.  As for the hat...I would use an umbrella (in event of rain) since a cap/hat is not worn with the mess dress.  I have worn the over-coat with the mess dress (as others have) when there has been inclement weather.

[Chappie]

It's in the 39-1 tables.  Yes, those full length overcoats are an authorized outergarment for mess dress, as are the gray wool scarves.

No, headgear is not worn.  You're in mess dress.  Mess dress has no headgear.  It doesn't matter if you wear an outergarment over it.

Since I have worn the overcoat with mess dress, you can most certainly tell the difference between someone who has in mess dress and someone who is in service dress.  The bow-tie sticking out prominently gives it away.    The combo actually looks very sharp in the winter.

Thanks for the cite...I am away from my home computer (with the regs).  I agree....the bow tie does give it away and the combo is sharp looking.

[Eclipse]

Danke as well....

[mikeylikey]

As for the hat...I would use an umbrella (in event of rain) since a cap/hat is not worn with the mess dress.

Sort of a taboo........men using umbrellas in the military.  Now, holding one for a lady is OK. 

But as someone eventually will jump in and tell me "CAP is not the military"....... CAP is not the military, do what you want. 

[Short Field]

The Army position on this is all wet.

[Chappie]

As for the hat...I would use an umbrella (in event of rain) since a cap/hat is not worn with the mess dress.

Sort of a taboo........men using umbrellas in the military.  Now, holding one for a lady is OK. 

But as someone eventually will jump in and tell me "CAP is not the military"....... CAP is not the military, do what you want. 

Usually, when I am in my Mess Dress it is because I am at a formal gathering and my lovely wife of 36 years is at my side....so the umbrella is in use when it is raining 

[lordmonar]

As for the hat...I would use an umbrella (in event of rain) since a cap/hat is not worn with the mess dress.

Sort of a taboo........men using umbrellas in the military.  Now, holding one for a lady is OK. 

But as someone eventually will jump in and tell me "CAP is not the military"....... CAP is not the military, do what you want. 

That's an Army and navy thing (not sure about the Marines).....the USAF has always allowed them....and I have never heard of anyone getting told/asked not to carry one.

[JohnKachenmeister]

As for the hat...I would use an umbrella (in event of rain) since a cap/hat is not worn with the mess dress.

Sort of a taboo........men using umbrellas in the military.  Now, holding one for a lady is OK. 

But as someone eventually will jump in and tell me "CAP is not the military"....... CAP is not the military, do what you want. 

That's an Army and navy thing (not sure about the Marines).....the USAF has always allowed them....and I have never heard of anyone getting told/asked not to carry one.

You beat me to it.  The Air Force is allowed to carry umbrellas.

[Al Sayre]

^^^

... and the Navy points and laughs. 

[Short Field]

^^^

... and the Navy points and laughs. 

They like being wet too.  You get a lot of CLOSE Army and Navy buds when you start walking to the parking lot in the rain.

[MIKE]

They don't get wet 'cause they all have hats on... Unlike the USAF. 

[SarDragon]

They don't get wet 'cause they all have hats on... Unlike the USAF. 

Oh, yeah, like the "white hat" is going to provide a lot of protection. The hat is a freakin' cloth dog dish. It got its "Dixie cup" nickname for a reason.

Walk out in the rain wearing one, and it collects water that then trickles out the bottom fold and runs down your head, almost uniformly in all directions. Not a pleasant feeling.

[PHall]

They don't get wet 'cause they all have hats on... Unlike the USAF. 

Oh, yeah, like the "white hat" is going to provide a lot of protection. The hat is a freakin' cloth dog dish. It got its "Dixie cup" nickname for a reason.

Walk out in the rain wearing one, and it collects water that then trickles out the bottom fold and runs down your head, almost uniformly in all directions. Not a pleasant feeling.

Sounds like somebody got to "man the rail" in the rain just a few times!

[SarDragon]

They don't get wet 'cause they all have hats on... Unlike the USAF. 

Oh, yeah, like the "white hat" is going to provide a lot of protection. The hat is a freakin' cloth dog dish. It got its "Dixie cup" nickname for a reason.

Walk out in the rain wearing one, and it collects water that then trickles out the bottom fold and runs down your head, almost uniformly in all directions. Not a pleasant feeling.

Sounds like somebody got to "man the rail" in the rain just a few times!

Only had to do that one once. But, I did do gate guard a few times, and other "outside" watches every so often.

[shorning]

They don't get wet 'cause they all have hats on... Unlike the USAF. 

Oh, yeah, like the "white hat" is going to provide a lot of protection. The hat is a freakin' cloth dog dish. It got its "Dixie cup" nickname for a reason.

Walk out in the rain wearing one, and it collects water that then trickles out the bottom fold and runs down your head, almost uniformly in all directions. Not a pleasant feeling.

Sounds like somebody got to "man the rail" in the rain just a few times!

Only had to do that one once. But, I did do gate guard a few times, and other "outside" watches every so often.

Today, you'd be wearing a ball cap with utilities.

[MIKE]

They make rain covers for combo caps. 

[PHall]

They make rain covers for combo caps. 

But not for "dixie cups"!

[MIKE]

Just wear it Gilligan style.

[mikeylikey]

While we are talking about Mess Dress, does the AF have a cape for that uniform??  Also, years ago didn't the AF have a white dress uniform?  Finally, why can't CAP members wear regular AF Officer shoulder boards?  Wouldn't that be cheaper than buying the "modified" ones from Vanguard??

[Eclipse]

I'll give you 2 of 3:

White Mess Dress:


#2b


Benjamin O'Davis in "tropical whites"

Another example: 


#3 - because it would violate regs on not having distinctive insignia, with basically no way to tell we are not regular military.

[Pylon]

While we are talking about Mess Dress, does the AF have a cape for that uniform??  Also, years ago didn't the AF have a white dress uniform?

The cape is strictly an Army thing.

Also, years ago didn't the AF have a white dress uniform?

Yes, the AF used to have white/summer mess dress.  And the regular (winter?) AF mess dress used to be black, not dark blue.

Finally, why can't CAP members wear regular AF Officer shoulder boards?  Wouldn't that be cheaper than buying the "modified" ones from Vanguard??

That's pretty absurd.  That's like asking why CAP can't just wear AF rank on our blues.  The shoulderboard with blue striping instead of silver is one of only two ways our CAP mess dress is even distinguishable from USAF uniforms.

Besides - our boards are cheaper.  CAP officer boards cost $30 from Vanguard.  AF boards cost $52 from Vanguard.  Gotta have the facts before you make up justifications.

[Hawk200]

While we are talking about Mess Dress, does the AF have a cape for that uniform??  Also, years ago didn't the AF have a white dress uniform?

The cape is strictly an Army thing.

Maybe now, but not always. My first few years in the Air Force, 35-10 had the option of a cape for officers wearing mess dress. I believe that the cape was left out when 35-10 was replaced with 36-2903. I don't recall there being mention of one in 2903 at all.

[MIKE]

Speaking of capes... Does the Navy and/or USMC still have the boat cloaks?

[RiverAux]

Are you sure that isn't a Good Humor Man in those photos of the white uniform?

[SarDragon]

Speaking of capes... Does the Navy and/or USMC still have the boat cloaks?

IIRC, yes. I'm too lazy to look it up right now. It would be just for E-7 and above.

[edit, my conscience got the better of me]

Yes, they are still optional items for male Chiefs and Officers.

NAVPERS 15665I, Art 3501.4