Over 18 Cadets

[Cecil DP]

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I met an Army Guard 2LT, who was a FLIGHT OFFICER in CAP because she was not yet 21.  In fact, she was a CAP Cadet until the day she received her Commission then chose to become a CAP FO, because being a Military Officer and a CAP CADET was a little strange to her, and I can completely agree with her decision.  What I don't agree with is the fact that she can not hold CAP Officer rank (2nd Lt) yet has a military Commission.

IF you check with National you may get their opinion as to whether 2LT/FO can be appointed as a 2LT in CAP, due to holding a Federal. Commisson in the Armed Forces. I believe that despite her age she is entitled to the grade of 2LT.

[lordmonar]

^ 

I met an Army Guard 2LT, who was a FLIGHT OFFICER in CAP because she was not yet 21.  In fact, she was a CAP Cadet until the day she received her Commission then chose to become a CAP FO, because being a Military Officer and a CAP CADET was a little strange to her, and I can completely agree with her decision.  What I don't agree with is the fact that she can not hold CAP Officer rank (2nd Lt) yet has a military Commission.

IF you check with National you may get their opinion as to whether 2LT/FO can be appointed as a 2LT in CAP, due to holding a Federal. Commisson in the Armed Forces. I believe that despite her age she is entitled to the grade of 2LT.

Here commission was not a federal one....but a state commission......so technically they were correct to keep her a FO....but it just illistrates my point that our membership rules for those between 18 and 21 are screwed up.

I woulld like to see the cut off age be 18 (....for get about the finishing high school).  I would either eliminate the FO ranks or incorporate them into the system so that everyone has to be a FO, TFO, SFO at one point....otherwise we keep the FO's as second class citezens.

[DC]

Terminating membership because a cadet graduates from HS is rediculous. What if you have a cadet that has worked particularly hard and graduates at 16. Are we supposed to say 'see ya, come back in two years' and kick them out, basically punishing academic excellence?

[arajca]

Terminating membership because a cadet graduates from HS is rediculous. What if you have a cadet that has worked particularly hard and graduates at 16. Are we supposed to say 'see ya, come back in two years' and kick them out, basically punishing academic excellence?

I believe the concept should have been worded:
Turns 18 or graduates high school, if turned 18 prior to graduation.

So turning 18 is the magic point. Graduation from HS is only used if the cadet turns 18 before graduation. In the example you gave, the cadet would remain a cadet until they turn 18.

[lordmonar]

I know we have talked about this before...but it has been a while and it was brought up in the new 60-1 discussion.

I feel we have a problem with what to do with the over 18/under 21 crowd.

The overlap between who is a cadet and who is a senior member often raises a lot of angst and Knuckel-biting with these members.

The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions when we write regulations or set policy.

The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old.  While some of those cadets are legal adults, living on their own, driving cars, working, voting, and generally doing everything that adults do.....and then they go to a CAP activity and they are treated like "children".

I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children...but the bottom line is that the regulations are written in such a way that Cadets are in fact children.  Right, wrong or indifferent that is the way things are.

So here is my proposed solution to the problem.

1.  Set a hard and fast age for membership in the cadet program and the senior program.   Elimintate the option area.....so if we set the age at 19 (for instants) all 18 year olds are cadets and all 19 year olds are senior members....no more over lap.

2.  If we set the SM age for anything less than 21....either eliminate the FO ranks or integrate them into the normal progression of the SM program.  This eliminate the stigma of FO's being seen as old cadets or second rate citezens.

You know Patrick, the one thing that concerns me is that you feel this way and you're a Composite Squadron Commander.

Do you have any over 18 year old cadets in your squadron?

Or were they shown the door....

No of course not....I am asking the question because I have cadets over 18 and have worked with several......also here on CAPTALK we have seen time and again some cadet get bent out of shape over some regulation (like the new 60-1) that says Cadets will not not do such and such....even though they are just as qualified (if not more) than some 18 year old SM.

This is also tied in to the the gray area of the FO's status as 2nd class citezens.

Let me state emphatically that I am not in the buisness of throwing out any cadets.....and if I were to come up with some new system...It would be grandfathered in so cadets currently in the program would still be allowed to finish.

But bottom line...in my way of thinking CAP's Cadet program is for children....and I don't consider anyone over 18 a child any more.

[lordmonar]

Nope, maybe I'm just being dense today, but I'm still not seeing a problem here.  No assertions of missions unfulfilled, persons injured, or resources wasted.

At best, the author was suggesting that sometimes some folks' feelings get hurt by others who do not understand our regulations and show respect for our cadets.

Not exactly a mandate to tossing cadets out of the program, is it?



If that's the best statement of the "problem," then we're pretty much done here.

What mission is being unfulfilled if we end the cadet program at 18?

[BillB]

It looks like basically everyone is saying an 18 year old should turn senior. I disagree to an extent and think the transition program that used to be called OTC resolves the problem. At age 18 the cadet joins the OTC program. Since he is no longer a cadet the regs like 60-1 treat him as a senior. But at the same time, the OTC member has the option of testing in the cadet program to earn Earhart Ecker or Spaatz. Call them Flight Officers if you wish, but get rid of the ROTC looking grade insignia and go to the old USAF WO insignia.
Putting in a transition program resolves the age problem of 18 year old adults in a children's program. It also allows growth in both cadet and senior activities for the OTC member. If I were on the National Cadet Committee, I'd push for such a program to be reinstated.

[lordmonar]

I don't like the OTC program because it just makes the FO program even worse.

FO's are supposed to be full members of the Senior Program.....but are sometimes treated as senior cadets. (heck they can't even drive CAP vehicles).

An OTC program will only make the FO's into 2nd class citezens for real.

[Pingree1492]

The cadet program needs to end at 18, period.

I completely disagree with this, from several angles.  Here goes:

First; I was a cadet that choose to stay in the program until I was 21.  I did this for several reasons, but mostly because as a cadet I could still receive primary flight training in CAP aircraft, but as a senior (even a Flight Officer) I couldn't.  I was able to receive CAP Flight Scholarships, and earn my private pilot license. 

Second point, I joined as a cadet when I was 12 (almost 13).  I earned my Spaatz award when I was 18.  About 3/4 of the really cool things I did as a cadet, and the biggest life lessons I learned from the program came AFTER I had gotten my Spaatz Award (and its not like I wasn't active before I got it).  Yes, it was a little weird being a Ground Team Leader and having to have a Senior Member "babysitter" with me, but I was able to work well with said senior member BECAUSE of the training I received in the Cadet Program.  Learning how to work with people in awkward situations like that has also been a huge help in what I've done later in CAP as well as in life.

Thirdly, it is each individuals choice as to what he/she wants to do once he/she hits that magic 18 number.  My choice to stay a cadet was one of the best I ever made in CAP.  However, there are two FO's in my squadron right now that the decision to turn senior was probably one of the best ones they made.  The choice is there for a reason; each individual has different priorities and wants different things from the program, we need to make sure that each person has an option that will fit what they want and what the unit needs the best.

My fourth point, now speaking as the Deputy Commander for Cadets of a large squadron, I currently have 3 cadets over 18 that are active in my squadron.  One is going after his Spaatz, two others just recently joined.  Before they joined, I laid out what their options were as either a senior member or a cadet.  Both choose to become cadets so that they could learn to fly in CAP aircraft, and be eligible for a wider variety of CAP Flight Scholarships.  All three are also currently working on their Scanner/Observer ratings, and participating actively in the program.  I've had zero problems with the two 18 year olds being led by a flight sergeant who is 14.  I'm fortunate in that I have a mature cadet staff, as well as mature 18 year olds who know what my expectations for their behavior are, and they have yet to fail to completely impress me with their performance.

Finally, there already exists a program to give former cadets more credit to completing senior member professional development criteria once they reach the dark side.  For those that haven't seen that yet, log onto eServices and look at the interim change letter from 5 Jun 08 posted there.  This gets rid of the need for an "OTC" program, etc. 

To address this issue:

"The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions . . . "
"The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old. "
"I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children."
which leads to "angst and Knuckel-biting ."

I've learned that what you get out of CAP is what you put into it.  If you're an over 18 cadet who resents some of the restrictions placed on cadets in the regs, then turn senior or stop complaining.  If you resent getting treated like a child by other senior members, guess what, it won't get better once you're a senior!!  I'm personally young enough to be the grandchild of many of the other seniors that I work with on a routine basis.  But personally, I've had almost no problems as either a cadet or a senior with this.  If you conduct yourself in a mature manner, you generally won't have a problem.

So please, to repeat what's been said numerous times already, lets not fix something that's not broken.  Sorry for the rant, but this is an issue that is obviously very near and dear to my heart.

[Johnny Yuma]

Ending the cadet program at 18 isn't something I thought of lightly, but needs done.

First: The age of adulthood in every state is 18. CAP needs to recognize this and bring the program in line to accept this as just that.

Second: Cadet protection. If the program ends at 18 then the cadet/officer relationship taboo is clearly defined. CAP has ZERO business telling ANYONE over the age of majority who they can or cannot date.
Making  everyone over 18 an officer eliminates 90 percent of the CPP issues.

Third: Personal Experience. I was a TAC at a Region encampment several years ago where in attendance was an 18 year old cadet basic. He joined at 18, or was signed up by his parents. His father was a CAP staffer and his brother was a former cadet turned senior.

This guy really had no desire to be in CAP and didn't want to be at the encampment, but was browbeat into going. He was there about 48 hours and wanted to go home.

His father and brother flew in and spent several hours (in the presence of the encampment CC and commandant) berating the kid and threatening to disown him, throw him off the family farm and terminate his job with the family business if he went home. Finally the encampment staff offered to put him on staff in the PAO shop to keep him there, doing something he liked (photographer) and placate his "family".

Had this been any other CAP member that did this they'd have been 2b'd for abuse but since it was family it was overlooked. But the fact remains is that we coerced a legal adult into de facto imprisonment for several days and used the excuse he was a cadet and it's what his family wanted. Never Again.

[mikeylikey]

His father and brother flew in and spent several hours (in the presence of the encampment CC and commandant) berating the kid and threatening to disown him, throw him off the family farm and terminate his job with the family business if he went home. Finally the encampment staff offered to put him on staff in the PAO shop to keep him there, doing something he liked (photographer) and placate his "family".

Ya......that family sucks.  If I were the Enc Commander I would have said.....your 18, See-YA!

So your ENC Commander rewarded this Cadet for crying and let him be on staff.  Well, not only does that family sucks, that Enc Commander also stinks.   

I seriously hope he didn't get Encampment Credit for that. 

[Ned]

First: The age of adulthood in every state is 18. CAP needs to recognize this and bring the program in line to accept this as just that.

Except of course your statement is incorrect.

The age of majority is not the same in all the states.  Nebraska and Alabama use the age of 19, and Mississippi is still at 21.  Really.  See the WikiPedia article.  And you might be interested to know that in Puerto Rico (where we have a fairly large cadet contingent) the age or majority is 14.

But even if the age of majority were 18 everywhere CAP has cadets, so what?

Remember, every branch of the Armed Forces has cadets over and under the age of 18.  If they don't care, why should CAP?

Cadethood and adulthood are simply unrelated concepts.

Second: Cadet protection. If the program ends at 18 then the cadet/officer relationship taboo is clearly defined.

Is it really undefined now?  Do you really not understand that you cannot date a cadet?

Would you like some help?

CAP has ZERO business telling ANYONE over the age of majority who they can or cannot date.

I can only accept your emphatic statement of personal opinion.  It should go without saying that you are entitled to hold such an opinion.

But you should know that it is not a widely held opinion.  Every single public high school in the country has rules that prohibit teachers from dating students; even those students who are over 18. 

How is this any different?  Cadets by definition are students; senior members by definition are leaders and teachers.

And it's not just us.  Every major youth organization in the country has similar rules.  Talk a look at the Scouts, Venturing, DeMolay, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, etc.

Making  everyone over 18 an officer eliminates 90 percent of the CPP issues.

Interesting assertion.  As a former legal officer, I would have to say I must strongly disagree based on the investigations and complaints I have been involved with -- the great majority of which involved seniors over 21 and cadets under the age of 18.

But even if what you say is true, you'd have to admit that making everyone under 21 a cadet would have the same effect.  Why isn't that OK?

Third: Personal Experience. I was a TAC at a Region encampment several years ago where in attendance was an 18 year old cadet basic. He joined at 18, or was signed up by his parents. His father was a CAP staffer and his brother was a former cadet turned senior.

This guy really had no desire to be in CAP and didn't want to be at the encampment, but was browbeat into going. He was there about 48 hours and wanted to go home.

His father and brother flew in and spent several hours (in the presence of the encampment CC and commandant) berating the kid and threatening to disown him, throw him off the family farm and terminate his job with the family business if he went home. Finally the encampment staff offered to put him on staff in the PAO shop to keep him there, doing something he liked (photographer) and placate his "family".

Had this been any other CAP member that did this they'd have been 2b'd for abuse but since it was family it was overlooked. But the fact remains is that we coerced a legal adult into de facto imprisonment for several days and used the excuse he was a cadet and it's what his family wanted. Never Again.

Sounds like a bad situation all right.  I'm a little disappointed that you stood by and allowed anyone -- adult or minor -- to be "berated" and "coerced" into "imprisonment" (to use your words) for several days.  But that's water under the bridge, I guess.

But surely you must see that making major changes to the program and forcibly terminating good cadets should not be done on the basis of one or more isolated incidents?

And perhaps more importantly -- all of our members should be treated with respect and dignity.  Not just the seniors.

But since this seems important to you, could you again please tell me the problem you are trying to solve here?

Ned Lee

[Johnny Yuma]

Ned says:

But even if the age of majority were 18 everywhere CAP has cadets, so what?

Remember, every branch of the Armed Forces has cadets over and under the age of 18.  If they don't care, why should CAP?

Because we're not the military and not subject to UCMJ.

Ned also says:

Is it really undefined now?  Do you really not understand that you cannot date a cadet?

Would you like some help?

Just where do you get off feeling like you have some supreme authority to tell anyone over the age of majority who they can or cannot date?

I find it interesting how a CAP member can get drunk after a meeting and crash their POV and CAP would have no real interest in the matter, yet an 18 year old cadet and an 18 year old senior can go home to an apartment they share together legally and it's a 2B offense.

Would YOU like some help understanding the word hypocrisy?

More from Ned:

Every single public high school in the country has rules that prohibit teachers from dating students; even those students who are over 18.

I've explained this to you before: Public High Schools are cumpulsory attendance, which means that greater scrutiny must be placed on staff as the students have no choice in attendance.

Every major youth organization in the country has similar rules.  Talk a look at the Scouts, Venturing, DeMolay, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, etc.

BB/BS don't deal with people over the age of majority by and large, same with Scouts with few exceptions.

Exploring/Venturing isn't a real good example you want to use. The rules on this branch of scouting has always been more "flexible" as most posts have little oversight from the Council and more on the sponsoring agency. As a former Explorer, BTDT.

Demolay: Really bad example. Secret societies, pedophiles and young people are recipes for disaster. The group in Topeka had several scandals tht finally were made public back WIWAC.

Sounds like a bad situation all right.  I'm a little disappointed that you stood by and allowed anyone -- adult or minor -- to be "berated" and "coerced" into "imprisonment" (to use your words) for several days.  But that's water under the bridge, I guess.

The TAC's were out of the loop on it, I didn't find out until days later what transpired in the meeting. Both the Encampment CC and commandant probably made the best of a bad situation but not the call I'd have made. The kid was talked into staying by the encampment commander but he was ready to walk away from his family over this.

I'm sorry, but we have a 3.5 year program. You can join at 12. If CAP feels it needs to treat every cadet like a juvenile then the cutoff must be at the age of majority. If that  means 21 in one state, 19 in another and 14 in PR then that's the way it should be.

Spacing - MIKE

[Ned]

Because we're not the military and not subject to UCMJ.

But of course neither JROTC cadets or instructors nor the great majority of senior ROTC cadets are subject to the UCMJ, either.  Heck, a lot of the senior ROTC instructors serving in uniform these days are retired officers on contract.  They are not subject to the UCMC, either.

Try again.

Just where do you get off feeling like you have some supreme authority to tell anyone over the age of majority who they can or cannot date?

Dude, chill.  It's not just me.  They are many, many situations where folks over 18 are restircted in just whom they can "date."  Many are law, some are just rules kinda like what we have in CAP.

• Every single state has laws that say that folks over the age of majority cannot "date" folks under the age of consent (which varies even more widely than the age of majority.)
  
  
• Psychiatrists cannot date even their adult patients.  It's unethical, and in some states illegal.
  
  
• Most college professors are prohibited by rule from dating their adult students.
  
  
• Every large corporation has rules that discourage or prohibit sexual harassment between managers and subordinates, including dating and asking for a date.

And so on. 

We were not the first youth organization to have such a rule.

In fact, to our shame, we were among the last.

I find it interesting how a CAP member can get drunk after a meeting and crash their POV and CAP would have no real interest in the matter, yet an 18 year old cadet and an 18 year old senior can go home to an apartment they share together legally and it's a 2B offense.

And your point is?

I'm pretty sure that any commander worth her/his salt would take some administrative actions in either situation.  If I were the drunk's cc, the member would lose their CAP license and probably be asked to take a break from CAP to attend to their alcohol problem.

Curiously enough, mere sharing of a residence between a cadet and senior -- without more -- is not prohibited or discouraged by any regulation or doctrine.  Otherwise, my daughter would have had to move out as soon as she joined!

But if the cadet and the senior are engaged in an intimate relationship, then I would of course take action.  Commander's have a lot of discretion in these kinds of situations, and there are a whole lot more options than a 2B.  The senior in question could become a patron member, the cadet could turn senior, the two could "pause" their relationship, and probably a whole bunch more options before reaching for the 2B.

But ultimately, if the senior member knowingly broke an important rule designed to protect our cadets, maybe she/he would be more comfortable being a non-member.

[Concerning high schools}
I've explained this to you before: Public High Schools are cumpulsory attendance, which means that greater scrutiny must be placed on staff as the students have no choice in attendance.

Except that no high school is compulsory after 18, and yet the teachers still cannot date the adult students.

Try again.

Exploring/Venturing isn't a real good example you want to use. The rules on this branch of scouting has always been more "flexible" as most posts have little oversight from the Council and more on the sponsoring agency. As a former Explorer, BTDT.

Demolay: Really bad example. Secret societies, pedophiles and young people are recipes for disaster. The group in Topeka had several scandals tht finally were made public back WIWAC.

OK, then.  Why don't you find a reputable youth training organization where it is OK for the adult leaders to "date" the students.

I'll wait . . . .



The "adult leaders don't date students" rule is the mainstream rule here.  It is in fact the norm, and accepted nationwide.  CAP just caught up, that's all.

[mikeylikey]

The "adult leaders don't date students" rule is the mainstream rule here.  It is in fact the norm, and accepted nationwide.  CAP just caught up, that's all.

Wow....I agree with you Ned.  I had to sit through an hour presentation on what I can and can not do with ROTC Cadets while at Fort Knox.  The very first thing the Region Commander said was "No Officer in any of my Schools will ever, for any reason date a student, no matter what age". 

Some people just don't understand that concept, both in CAP and the Military.  A few years ago a West Point Professor was cashiered when it was learned that he was dating a Senior.  The Officer was 35, the Cadet was 23.  Almost 10 years ago, a member of my CAP SQD was dating a Cadet.  The Guy was 25, the cadet 18.  It was both weird and kind of sick.  The Wing Commander took no time showing the Senior Member the door.  (they were doing things, that normally are not allowed at CAP activities, thus the rush to remove the member). 

[RiverAux]

The least compelling argument I've heard for the status quo is "the military has cadets over the age of 18". 

The obvious counterargument to that is that the military cadet programs don't have cadets as young as 12.  None of the military cadet programs actually include young children. 

Also, please note that the military actually separates their programs for kids (JROTC) and adults (ROTC/service academies).  Its not like each town has a single ROTC unit in which high school and college students are mixed together.   

I also don't buy the "The CAP cadet program is training cadets to become CAP officers" argument.  All it really takes to become a CAP officer is to do Level 1 and wait six months.  Those who have completed certain CAP cadet achievements do receive higher rank, but they're no more qualified (in the eyes of CAP) than all the other people who get special appointments in the senior program.  Are former cadets better prepared to be CAP officers than some guy who got a radiotelephone license?  Sure, but if the purpose of the program was to produce the kind of officers we want, we would make EVERYBODY do it. 

[lordmonar]

Actually making the end age of the CP to 18 may make the senior on cadet portion of the CPP worse not better.

Assume you have a 17 year cadet dating a 16 year old....one year later we now have an 18 year old SM dating a 17 year old cadet...at least with the current system we can forstall this particular scenero until the older cadet turns 21.

We will never really fix this particular problem unless we create a manditory gap in the two programs....which I am not advocating!!!!!

The only real fix for the "no seniorswill date/see/etc any cadet" rule is to change the wording to say no senior members invilved in the "Cadet Program" may date a cadet within his/her unit.

This would allow for otherwise legal relationship to contiune by forcing the SM into another squadron or into a position that he/she has not normal contact with the cadets.

Again this is not a reral good fix.....I honestly liked the old rule...wherer you left it vague so you could deal with the issues you had to deal with and ignore those that were not really problems.

Again....I am only talking about relationships that would otherwise be considered legal and the over riding philosophy that no relationship of any sort should interfere with the safety of the cadets or the accomplishment of the CP mission.

And just to restate my postion on CAP's Cadet program....is that it is a program for children.....once you turn 18 you are not a child any more.

ROTC's and the academy's cadet programs are for adults.

[Eclipse]

Just where do you get off feeling like you have some supreme authority to tell anyone over the age of majority who they can or cannot date?

That's easy - as soon as a person signs their name voluntarily to join an organization which has clear rules,regulations, and standards for membership.

If AARP said "90 year olds could not date 80 year olds", that's their sandbox and their rules. Don't like it?  Don't join.

Want to continue accepting the benefits available to a cadet, while abdicating any responsibility for your self or others within CAP?  Then follow the rules.  Want to come and go as you please and date your CDC?  Then transition, but accept that you can't be encampment cadet commander this year, or make your Spaatz.

While the line must be drawn somewhere, this is less about age and more about the mentor/student or authority / subordinate relationship which should never move into anything beyond respectful friendship, and even "friendship" can be an issue in many situations where objective decisions have to be made.

Bottom line, it is inappropriate and unprofessional to have a romantic relationship with a subordinate, no matter what the situation, and for every anomalous "success story" you might be aware of, I can show you ten where it was a bad idea.

And just to restate my position on CAP's Cadet program....is that it is a program for children.....once you turn 18 you are not a child any more.

hmm...not sure about this, 12 years olds are not "children", they are adolescents, most being capable of some level of independent activity and even accepting responsibility, while the majority of 18 years olds I have had experience with, especially those without the benefit of a BMT "reality sandwich" are far from being "adults" in any real sense of the ability to function on their own or make appropriate life choices.  Most are head-strong and "indestructible" (in the negative sense of the word).

But then again I regularly encounter senior members with a decade on me who are less mature than some cadets I know.

[PHall]

And just to restate my postion on CAP's Cadet program....is that it is a program for children.....once you turn 18 you are not a child any more.

Careful Patrick, your Boy Scout orientation is showing.

And this may be the reason for our differences in opinion on this.

Your "experience base" is mostly working with the Boy Scouts. Which is fine and good and such.

My (and a few others) "experience base" is working with CAP.

Different cultures that don't exactly mesh sometimes.

Something to think about maybe?

[John Bryan]

Eclipse,

THANK YOU for what you said. We in CAP (for the most part) are dealing with adolescents and young adults as cadets....NOT children.

Adolescents and young adults can do a lot under 18 that children cannot, for example drive a car at 16, fly planes solo at 16....gliders and balloons at 14, in Indiana become state EMS First Responders at 14.....adolescents are not adults but they are also not children.

Sadly many people think there are 2 choices ADULT and CHILD.....my advice, take a human development or life span developmental psychology course. There are many phases to life. On a side note...what do we do with the members who are really too old for CAP?

Even the legal age of childhood has been questioned in the last 15 years with 12 year olds being put on trail as adults for crimes. Recent research has found the human brain is not completed devlopment until a young person is in their ealry 20's....ie they don't truly think as full adults.

Now as to the topic.....leave the age of cadet membership alone and start training senior members or adult officers or whatever we are in things like human development so we understand at least the difference between children, adolescents, and adults.