Cadets wearing Golf Shirt

[SarDragon]

Actually, it does. Is the golf shirt the same, not equivelent to, the CAP utility uniform (blue poly/cotton flightsuit style coveralls)?

No.

The field uniform, aka bbdu?

No.

or the blazer uniform (or any of it's combinations)?

No.

If not, cadets cannot wear it. The first part of the paragraph specifies which CAP distinctive uniforms cadets can wear.

There you have it, IMHO, in a nutshell.

YMMV.

[♠SARKID♠]

So then, why does it list specific uniforms cadets can wear (which doesn't include the Golf shirt combination) but states that senior members can wear any of the combinations? The context is clear that out of all the CAP distinctive uniforms, only the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations are authorized for cadets, despite what the Knowledge Base indicates.

Ah, missed that thanks.  *hops back to the other side of the fence*

Still though, what would possess the Knowledgebase folks to say yes?

[MIKE]

Magic Eight-Ball

[Pylon]

Still though, what would possess the Knowledgebase folks to say yes?

This is not the first time the Knowledgebase has told people something is kosher which was against the regs.  The Knowlegebase, while a handy source for the opinions of National Headquarters, is not regulatory in nature.

But the previous assessments by several senior members are true. 

Chapter 4, Sentence #1 says:  Cadets may wear uniforms X, Y, Z.
Chapter 4, Sentence #2 says:  Seniors may wear all the uniforms in this chapter.

Since golf shirt was not one of the specific ones listed for cadets, they cannot wear it.  There is no wiggle room, room for interpretation, nor gray area.  Cadets may not wear the polo uniform unless there is an Interim Change Letter or updated CAPM 39-1 which reflects new language authorizing it for cadets.

[mikeylikey]

Cadets may not wear the polo uniform unless there is an Interim Change Letter or updated CAPM 39-1 which reflects new language authorizing it for cadets.

Just wanted everyone to reread what Mike said above!  The issue is now mute.  Case closed.  Nothing else to see here.  Cadets, call Vanguard and see if they will accept return of your Polo Shirt, or sell it to a Senior Member.  That is all.

 

[CASH172]

I know we wanna kill this discussion but I had to ask NHQ what they thought.

Just requesting a little verification on this.  CAPM 39-1 states "4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired."  Based on the exclusionary nature of the manual, doesn't that deny cadets from wear of the uniform.  I'm just trying to find the right way to interpret the regulations on this one.

No. CAPM 39-1 specifies when uniforms such as the mess dress or aviator shirt are restricted to only senior members.

[Short Field]

I checked the Knowledge base and did't find your questions or answers so I guess they sent it directly to you.  Was it signed by a OPR at National?

[RiverAux]

I've had several KB requests answered directly back to me, but that were never actually posted in the KB.   They should post all their answers unless they are a 100% duplicate of an existing question.

[♠SARKID♠]

I know we wanna kill this discussion but I had to ask NHQ what they thought.

Just requesting a little verification on this.  CAPM 39-1 states "4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired."  Based on the exclusionary nature of the manual, doesn't that deny cadets from wear of the uniform.  I'm just trying to find the right way to interpret the regulations on this one.

No. CAPM 39-1 specifies when uniforms such as the mess dress or aviator shirt are restricted to only senior members.

...I don't understand what they're saying

[MIKE]

Neither do they.

[Short Field]

[

... doesn't that deny ...

No.

If the answer to the above question is No, then the answer a similar question of "does that deny" is Yes.     

[CASH172]

[

... doesn't that deny ...

No.

If the answer to the above question is No, then the answer a similar question of "does that deny" is Yes.     

You just confused me even more. 

I tried copying a link of my question for you guys but it appears to be viewable only by me.  I'm not sure what an OPR is and all it says is KB Manager.  All I can do is give you the Question Reference #080622-000004. 

[lordmonar]

Question....is the polo-shirt and gray pants considered one of the combinations of the the "Blazer Combination" Uniform?

If not....was is a deliberate omission on Nationals part of just another of their not thinking the situation all the way through?

If you look at Chapter 4....under definitions...they don't even mention the polo shirt option as a CAP Distincitve uniform.....but it is show in Fig 4-3.

So...by strict interpetation of the regulations....no one is authorised to wear the polo shirt combination. 

[Eclipse]

Question....is the polo-shirt and gray pants considered one of the combinations of the the "Blazer Combination" Uniform?

If not....was is a deliberate omission on Nationals part of just another of their not thinking the situation all the way through?

If you look at Chapter 4....under definitions...they don't even mention the polo shirt option as a CAP Distinctive uniform.....but it is show in Fig 4-3.

So...by strict interpretation of the regulations....no one is authorized to wear the polo shirt combination. 

Look at table 4-4 on page 84-85:

There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white lettering on left breast. Shirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation. Women may wear the shirt out of slacks but shirt length must not fall below mid-hips.

Also look on page 76:

NOTES: There are three knit shirts authorized for wear for men and women.

Rarely, if ever, are cadets referred to as "men" or "women".

[lordmonar]

I was pointing out that 39-1 is poorly written in the first place.

They go out of their way to define several of the distinctive CAP uniforms but omit a definition of the golf shirt gray pants uniform....but include them in a table and a figure.

My question is.......in the section that authorises cadets to wear the CAP Feild, Utility and Blazer combination Uniforms......did they through intent or mis-step omit the golf shirt combination?

A valid argument can be made for both cases......

One of the problems of a "strict interpetation" of the regulation is that....by definition in Chap 4....there is no such thing as a golf shirt combination.......even though they subsequently show SMs wearing it and inculde it in a table.

39-1 needs to be rewritten.  I am not saying we need to make any changes to the regulations but we need to make it so it is consitant and there is NO ROOM  for mis-understanding.

[CASH172]

Ok we all know how 39-1 isn't perfect, but what's the truth regarding this.  Does this have to go all the way to the NB to get clarification on the subject?

[lordmonar]

Playing devil's advocate here......


If you are a "strict interpetationist" then yes it does have to go to the NB for clarification because the regulations strictly forbits local interpretation.

Cadets are are authorised the CAP Field Uniform, CAP Utility Uniform and CAP Blazer Combo.

But not the CAP Blue Flight Suit?

But not the CAP Golf Shirt?

Okay.....by the strict rules...they can't.  We can't ask Knowlegebase because that is not reglatory.  We can't ask anyone in the chain of command because it is not one of the few items Wing and Regional CC's are allowed to authorise.

The regulations forces us to bother the NB to clarify each and every little type/omission/contradiction.

So I go back to my orginal question.......is the apparent prohibition of cadets wearing the Golf Shift (and the blue flight suit) an intentional omission or a oversight?

[Pylon]

For what it's worth, it's now on the Uniform Committee's list of things to clear up, one way or another.  Either change to allow wear of certain corporate uniforms by cadets, or strengthen the language in the manual to remove any doubt as to who can and cannot wear it.

[Short Field]

OPR = Office of Primary Responsibility

[a2capt]

Sorry if this causes another twist.. but..

What if they desire to wear it .. say.. to a movie, to school, etc.

"Whats Civil Air Patrol?"

..and score a member or two?

After all, a couple of those varieties are just a polo shirt that has a CAP seal on it ..

Or off meeting night get togethers' camaraderie stuff, work parties, etc.

It's not horribly different than say.. a polo shirt from an airport gift shop, a visited museum, that t-shirt or other polo shirt they may have gotten from another cadet activity, etc..