Cadets wearing Golf Shirt

[CASH172]

I've been looking at 39-1, and I can't find anything that states cadets can or cannot wear the CAP Distinctive Golf Shirt.  There's no mention of who may actually wear the uniform.  So my question is, can cadets wear it?

[Lamh Dearg]

....and why would any cadet want to wear the golf shirt? 

[Pylon]

Short answer: No.  Cadets may not.

The polo shirts are CAP distinctive uniforms and fall under Chapter 4 of the CAPM 39-1 Uniform Manual.  What does the first sentence in Chapter 4 say?  It says this:

4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired.

No mention of authorizing the polo shirts for cadet wear, thus because of the self-defined exclusionary nature of CAPM 39-1, cadets cannot.

[♠SARKID♠]

....and why would any cadet want to wear the golf shirt? 

Because not all of us want to be cadets.  I have to go with Pylon on this one though.

[CASH172]

I saw that first sentence on chapter 4.  But, what I find weird is how there's no mention of the Golf Shirt itself even within the Definition of Terms in 4-2.  And, the Aviator Shirt Uniform specifically spells out SMs only.  There's no mention of cadet or even senior within the Golf Shirt page. 

....and why would any cadet want to wear the golf shirt? 

Cause some cadets are just weird.  Usually this would be me, but in this case, not so.  Someone I know was asking about it. 

[FW]

The "golf shirt" is an alternative to the white aviator shirt meant for senior members.

Cadets may wear the golf shirt. It just isn't allowed as an authorized cadet uniform.   It can be worn however, when a cadet is "off duty".

Chapter 4-1 is very specific.  If it's not mentioned, it's not allowed.

There is one exception however, it may be worn by cadets during a glider encampment or during glider training  with shorts as a summer "flight uniform".

[mikeylikey]

There is one exception however, it may be worn by cadets during a glider encampment or during glider training with shorts as a summer "flight uniform".

When exceptions are made....the reg becomes obsolete in my mind.

Ridiculous not to allow the golf shirt to be worn by Cadets.  They are people too!

[FW]

^ I'm only making the observation; not making editorial comments on this one :angel:

[mikeylikey]

^ I'm only making the observation; not making editorial comments on this one :angel:

It's not just about the glider uniform.  Many exceptions are made left and right in CAP, even when the regs say "there will be no exceptions". 

I thought the glider uniform was a t-shirt and shorts anyway??

[Eclipse]

I thought the glider uniform was a t-shirt and shorts anyway??

Ditto - I've never seen a cadet wearing the dark blue CAP golf shirt - pretty expensive to be sweating up in a glider.

[FW]

T-shirt.... Golf shirt....  All the same to this " Old shirt"  
How a cadet spends their allowance is their business.

If only we lived in a perfect world, where it would only rain at night between 23:00  and  01:00 hrs Monday to Friday, where the temps would never deviate between 60 -80 degrees and all CAP members would wear uniforms correctly....

Ah yes, what a dream....

To be serious, many of the regs are outdated, obsolete and have no base in current reality.  You would think we could get some "volunteers" to get things in order.

[mikeylikey]

To be serious, many of the regs are outdated, obsolete and have no base in current reality.  You would think we could get some "volunteers" to get things in order.

We tried, and the uniform head honcho got replaced last minute, and the new guy scrubbed the idea of "regular" members forming a committee and getting the uniform situation worked out. 

[jimmydeanno]

You would think we could get some "volunteers" to get things in order.

Sometimes that is worse than having an obsolete reg...

[CASH172]

Ok, so I just wanted to see what the folks at NHQ said about the issue.  I asked on the Knowledgebase and this was the response:

Are cadets authorized to wear the CAP Distinctive Golf Shirt?...


Yes unless your unit or wing has some type of restriction on wear by cadets.

Please see knowledgebase answer(s) below for additional details.

Title: Wear of the Golf Shirt Uniform
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1365&p_created=1091213887

Title: Appropriate civilian outerwear with CAP uniforms
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1445&p_created=1098281833

[♠SARKID♠]

Short answer: No.  Cadets may not.

The polo shirts are CAP distinctive uniforms and fall under Chapter 4 of the CAPM 39-1 Uniform Manual.  What does the first sentence in Chapter 4 say?  It says this:

4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired.

No mention of authorizing the polo shirts for cadet wear, thus because of the self-defined exclusionary nature of CAPM 39-1, cadets cannot.

After reading thrugh 39-1 I have to change my opinion, Pylon.  This is what it says about its "exclusionary nature".

Any variation from this publication is not authorized.  Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

It only excludes items not listed; it has no bearing on interpretation of regulations as to who can wear what.  39-1 also does not say whether or not the golf shirt is senior member exclusive so its not a variation from the publication.  On the pictured pages of the CAP distinctive section all uniforms are stated as being "Senior Members Only", "Cadets Only", or "Senior Members and Cadets" with the exception of the golf shirt  (page 76) which has no classification at all.  If you are going to say that cadets can't wear the golf shirt based on the information in the regulation, then there technically isn't enough information to say that senior members can wear it either (To think of that in a different terms - show me where the regulation says that senior members can wear the golf shirt!).  It does not define who can wear the combo.

Top that with a knowledgebase "OK", and I have to hop onto the other side of the fence for this one.

[mikeylikey]

^ I think I saw a pic of Cadets wearing the golf shirt while in DC for that Civic Leadership Academy.

I have no problem with Cadets wearing the shirt.  When 39-1 gets written, this should be made more clear I suppose!! 

Oh and if anyone can remember this far back.....the shirts were prizes for both Cadets and Seniors in the Recruiting 2000 campaign/ contest

[ßτε]

show me where the regulation says that senior members can wear the golf shirt!

Here:

4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired. All senior members, including those who do not meet the standards of wear for an Air Force style uniform for reasons of grooming or weight standards, may wear any of the CAP distinctive uniform combinations described in this chapter.

[♠SARKID♠]

show me where the regulation says that senior members can wear the golf shirt!

Here:

4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired. All senior members, including those who do not meet the standards of wear for an Air Force style uniform for reasons of grooming or weight standards, may wear any of the CAP distinctive uniform combinations described in this chapter.

Okay, fair enough but my point still stands.  It doesn't deny that cadets can wear the golf shirt.

[ßτε]

So then, why does it list specific uniforms cadets can wear (which doesn't include the Golf shirt combination) but states that senior members can wear any of the combinations? The context is clear that out of all the CAP distinctive uniforms, only the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations are authorized for cadets, despite what the Knowledge Base indicates.

[arajca]

show me where the regulation says that senior members can wear the golf shirt!

Here:

4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired. All senior members, including those who do not meet the standards of wear for an Air Force style uniform for reasons of grooming or weight standards, may wear any of the CAP distinctive uniform combinations described in this chapter.

Okay, fair enough but my point still stands.  It doesn't deny that cadets can wear the golf shirt.

Actually, it does. Is the golf shirt the same, not equivelent to, the CAP utility uniform (blue poly/cotton flightsuit style coveralls)? The field uniform, aka bbdu? or the blazer uniform (or any of it's combinations)? If not, cadets cannot wear it. The first part of the paragraph specifies which CAP distinctive uniforms cadets can wear.

[SarDragon]

Actually, it does. Is the golf shirt the same, not equivelent to, the CAP utility uniform (blue poly/cotton flightsuit style coveralls)?

No.

The field uniform, aka bbdu?

No.

or the blazer uniform (or any of it's combinations)?

No.

If not, cadets cannot wear it. The first part of the paragraph specifies which CAP distinctive uniforms cadets can wear.

There you have it, IMHO, in a nutshell.

YMMV.

[♠SARKID♠]

So then, why does it list specific uniforms cadets can wear (which doesn't include the Golf shirt combination) but states that senior members can wear any of the combinations? The context is clear that out of all the CAP distinctive uniforms, only the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations are authorized for cadets, despite what the Knowledge Base indicates.

Ah, missed that thanks.  *hops back to the other side of the fence*

Still though, what would possess the Knowledgebase folks to say yes?

[MIKE]

Magic Eight-Ball

[Pylon]

Still though, what would possess the Knowledgebase folks to say yes?

This is not the first time the Knowledgebase has told people something is kosher which was against the regs.  The Knowlegebase, while a handy source for the opinions of National Headquarters, is not regulatory in nature.

But the previous assessments by several senior members are true. 

Chapter 4, Sentence #1 says:  Cadets may wear uniforms X, Y, Z.
Chapter 4, Sentence #2 says:  Seniors may wear all the uniforms in this chapter.

Since golf shirt was not one of the specific ones listed for cadets, they cannot wear it.  There is no wiggle room, room for interpretation, nor gray area.  Cadets may not wear the polo uniform unless there is an Interim Change Letter or updated CAPM 39-1 which reflects new language authorizing it for cadets.

[mikeylikey]

Cadets may not wear the polo uniform unless there is an Interim Change Letter or updated CAPM 39-1 which reflects new language authorizing it for cadets.

Just wanted everyone to reread what Mike said above!  The issue is now mute.  Case closed.  Nothing else to see here.  Cadets, call Vanguard and see if they will accept return of your Polo Shirt, or sell it to a Senior Member.  That is all.

 

[CASH172]

I know we wanna kill this discussion but I had to ask NHQ what they thought.

Just requesting a little verification on this.  CAPM 39-1 states "4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired."  Based on the exclusionary nature of the manual, doesn't that deny cadets from wear of the uniform.  I'm just trying to find the right way to interpret the regulations on this one.

No. CAPM 39-1 specifies when uniforms such as the mess dress or aviator shirt are restricted to only senior members.

[Short Field]

I checked the Knowledge base and did't find your questions or answers so I guess they sent it directly to you.  Was it signed by a OPR at National?

[RiverAux]

I've had several KB requests answered directly back to me, but that were never actually posted in the KB.   They should post all their answers unless they are a 100% duplicate of an existing question.

[♠SARKID♠]

I know we wanna kill this discussion but I had to ask NHQ what they thought.

Just requesting a little verification on this.  CAPM 39-1 states "4-1. General.  Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired."  Based on the exclusionary nature of the manual, doesn't that deny cadets from wear of the uniform.  I'm just trying to find the right way to interpret the regulations on this one.

No. CAPM 39-1 specifies when uniforms such as the mess dress or aviator shirt are restricted to only senior members.

...I don't understand what they're saying

[MIKE]

Neither do they.

[Short Field]

[

... doesn't that deny ...

No.

If the answer to the above question is No, then the answer a similar question of "does that deny" is Yes.     

[CASH172]

[

... doesn't that deny ...

No.

If the answer to the above question is No, then the answer a similar question of "does that deny" is Yes.     

You just confused me even more. 

I tried copying a link of my question for you guys but it appears to be viewable only by me.  I'm not sure what an OPR is and all it says is KB Manager.  All I can do is give you the Question Reference #080622-000004. 

[lordmonar]

Question....is the polo-shirt and gray pants considered one of the combinations of the the "Blazer Combination" Uniform?

If not....was is a deliberate omission on Nationals part of just another of their not thinking the situation all the way through?

If you look at Chapter 4....under definitions...they don't even mention the polo shirt option as a CAP Distincitve uniform.....but it is show in Fig 4-3.

So...by strict interpetation of the regulations....no one is authorised to wear the polo shirt combination. 

[Eclipse]

Question....is the polo-shirt and gray pants considered one of the combinations of the the "Blazer Combination" Uniform?

If not....was is a deliberate omission on Nationals part of just another of their not thinking the situation all the way through?

If you look at Chapter 4....under definitions...they don't even mention the polo shirt option as a CAP Distinctive uniform.....but it is show in Fig 4-3.

So...by strict interpretation of the regulations....no one is authorized to wear the polo shirt combination. 

Look at table 4-4 on page 84-85:

There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white lettering on left breast. Shirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation. Women may wear the shirt out of slacks but shirt length must not fall below mid-hips.

Also look on page 76:

NOTES: There are three knit shirts authorized for wear for men and women.

Rarely, if ever, are cadets referred to as "men" or "women".

[lordmonar]

I was pointing out that 39-1 is poorly written in the first place.

They go out of their way to define several of the distinctive CAP uniforms but omit a definition of the golf shirt gray pants uniform....but include them in a table and a figure.

My question is.......in the section that authorises cadets to wear the CAP Feild, Utility and Blazer combination Uniforms......did they through intent or mis-step omit the golf shirt combination?

A valid argument can be made for both cases......

One of the problems of a "strict interpetation" of the regulation is that....by definition in Chap 4....there is no such thing as a golf shirt combination.......even though they subsequently show SMs wearing it and inculde it in a table.

39-1 needs to be rewritten.  I am not saying we need to make any changes to the regulations but we need to make it so it is consitant and there is NO ROOM  for mis-understanding.

[CASH172]

Ok we all know how 39-1 isn't perfect, but what's the truth regarding this.  Does this have to go all the way to the NB to get clarification on the subject?

[lordmonar]

Playing devil's advocate here......


If you are a "strict interpetationist" then yes it does have to go to the NB for clarification because the regulations strictly forbits local interpretation.

Cadets are are authorised the CAP Field Uniform, CAP Utility Uniform and CAP Blazer Combo.

But not the CAP Blue Flight Suit?

But not the CAP Golf Shirt?

Okay.....by the strict rules...they can't.  We can't ask Knowlegebase because that is not reglatory.  We can't ask anyone in the chain of command because it is not one of the few items Wing and Regional CC's are allowed to authorise.

The regulations forces us to bother the NB to clarify each and every little type/omission/contradiction.

So I go back to my orginal question.......is the apparent prohibition of cadets wearing the Golf Shift (and the blue flight suit) an intentional omission or a oversight?

[Pylon]

For what it's worth, it's now on the Uniform Committee's list of things to clear up, one way or another.  Either change to allow wear of certain corporate uniforms by cadets, or strengthen the language in the manual to remove any doubt as to who can and cannot wear it.

[Short Field]

OPR = Office of Primary Responsibility

[a2capt]

Sorry if this causes another twist.. but..

What if they desire to wear it .. say.. to a movie, to school, etc.

"Whats Civil Air Patrol?"

..and score a member or two?

After all, a couple of those varieties are just a polo shirt that has a CAP seal on it ..

Or off meeting night get togethers' camaraderie stuff, work parties, etc.

It's not horribly different than say.. a polo shirt from an airport gift shop, a visited museum, that t-shirt or other polo shirt they may have gotten from another cadet activity, etc..

[SarDragon]

Sorry if this causes another twist.. but..

What if they desire to wear it .. say.. to a movie, to school, etc.

"Whats Civil Air Patrol?"

..and score a member or two?

After all, a couple of those varieties are just a polo shirt that has a CAP seal on it ..

Or off meeting night get togethers' camaraderie stuff, work parties, etc.

It's not horribly different than say.. a polo shirt from an airport gift shop, a visited museum, that t-shirt or other polo shirt they may have gotten from another cadet activity, etc..

I would then suggest one of the other shirts, that Vanguard sells, that say CAP in some form, but are NOT uniform items.

YMMV.

[Chappie]

Sorry if this causes another twist.. but..

What if they desire to wear it .. say.. to a movie, to school, etc.

"Whats Civil Air Patrol?"

..and score a member or two?

After all, a couple of those varieties are just a polo shirt that has a CAP seal on it ..

Or off meeting night get togethers' camaraderie stuff, work parties, etc.

It's not horribly different than say.. a polo shirt from an airport gift shop, a visited museum, that t-shirt or other polo shirt they may have gotten from another cadet activity, etc..

I would then suggest one of the other shirts, that Vanguard sells, that say CAP in some form, but are NOT uniform items.

YMMV.

Concurs with Dave on this one.  I have the Embrodiered Golf Short (uniform item) which is worn with the gray slacks.  Wear that one on various occassions for CAP official events that are more informal in nature.  But also have a few polo shirts (Wing Staff/NSC student and staff) and leisure oxford shirts (a couple of colors to choose from) which have a CAP seal/event logo, etc. which I wear for casual wear to events mentioned in the posted inquiry or for traveling to a CAP  event (nice identifier when being picked up at the airport by a greeting party).  It does give an opportunity for PR but is not an "official" uniform item.

[RiverAux]

Agree -- the "uniform" polo shirts should not be worn outside of CAP events.  Its a quirky line to deal with though.  For example, the gray pants are just another pair of gray pants and to wear them outside of CAP is perfectly ok since they aren't specifically identifiable as a CAP uniform.  The blue polo shirts are though. 

I agree with Chappie that the event-type shirts are fine since they aren't official CAP uniform items and could be worn be seniors or cadets outside of CAP activities. 

[Dragoon]

I agree that any uniform item, like the official golf shirt, should not be mixed and matched as part of civilian attire.

However, Ms. Parker has told me that it's completely OK to do so, as it's "good publicity" for CAP to show the golf shirt.

I wish that our head uniform guru actually wore uniforms every now and then.  That might help clear up some of the confusion.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

It cannot be overstated:

There are too many uniforms and "uniforms" in Civil Air Patrol -- so much so that there is almost no uniformity whatsoever.

Let there be ONE CAP counterpart for each AF uniform. And only one. When I go to a CAP function, sometimes I'm not sure if I'm at an organized activity or a fashion show for the local Army-Navy store.