CAP Distintive Polo (almost) uniform

[KyCAP]

OK,

Searched the board and didn't see this anywhere....

As a former Senior Squadron CC one of the little nit picky things that I always had about the polo/grey slack uniform was that there is ZERO uniformity...

I submit that members purchase Dockers, Dickies, Haggar, 511 Tactical, and any other BRAND of GREY slack that meets the reg...   

It of course was the easiest way to get a new member in with the $20 shirt that we pay $50 for and I advised all members to use the embroidered with name CAP polo to help everyone get acquainted with one another...

But..... I would love for NHQ to pick a vendor that is a more professional public safety style pant like that 511 tactical or similar.   Grandfather in all of the current pants that we have in the closet and let the attrition and wear weed them out to move toward a uniform pant....   I wouldn't mind to see this pant even have the ExOfficio grey zip off for converting to shorts.

Standing by for FLAME.

[mikeylikey]

^ No Flame.  I actually would love to see the current polos with khaki (Tan) pants, ala the VSAF program.  I just don't like the VSAF shirt. 

We need to ditch grey pants soon!

[Pylon]

Khakis and a polo shirt are pretty much the ubiquitous combination these days anyhow.  There's no reason to hold on to wearing gray slacks with a polo.  Many, many more people already own a nice pair of khaki dress pants than do a medium gray twill pant.

The new VSAF program pairs khaki pants with a CAP-embroidered button down shirt, so I wouldn't be surprised if the gray pants were phased-out by standing khaki dress pants across the board.  Perhaps somebody was seeing how it'd look.   

We already have appropriate field uniforms, so with the polo shirt uniform, professional look is the key... zip-offs that convert to shorts and tactical pants don't really give that business professional appearance. 

[KyCAP]

I should frame my reference that the majority of our pilots in our wing are uniformly wearing the CAP Distinctive POLO uniform. 

The reference to zip off's came from ---especially in the more humid summer months (now).   The general consensus is that the NOMEX or other flight suits are hotter than HADES and just less comfortable.   I tend to be one of those who also sweated off about 4 pounds during a SAR a few years back in the Western part of Kentucky.   Soo... this IS the field uniform and the closets to being UNIFORM that we have in our wing.    We look sharp from a distance with a herd of Polo/Grey pants though nothing rag tag.  I've been to other wings around us (there are a few) and have seen the CAP Polo with Grey BDU and we are NO where near that... Just to be clear...  Zip offs would be for "rest periods" under the tent, in the hangar cooling down...drinking cold water.. etc.

[mikeylikey]

Polos tucked into shorts....is a no-no in the professional world.  Unless your one of those cops that are forced to ride a bicycle.   

[KyCAP]

Good Point.

Redacted - What about UPS? / USPS/ Flight Line guys (Delta/ American / Local FBO)?

[Pylon]

Simply because pilots choose not to utilize the two flight uniforms CAP has in our repertoire is not necessarily a good reason to move to tactical pants with zip offs for the existing professional, office-environment uniform.

[KyCAP]

Coming back on target.

My point is not to
1) lobby for zip offs
2) lobby for a tactical pant

My point is to standardize for the future on a "uniform" public safety style working pant for the distinctive uniform. 

As a side note, I personally would be against non-uniform Khaki pants for the distinctive uniform.  Someone else said it in another thread... Uniform represents something other than "clothes".   Allowing a "non-uniform Khaki" pant in my experience would only magnify the problem for the reason you point out (we all have it).   A quick look in my closet is three pair of "the same style" grey pants that I have procured for CAP along with 5 different brands/styles of Khaki pants that all would fit the CAP "flat front/no pleats" type of definition of different dye color/thread count/cloth type.

I arbitrarily picked the brand 511 because it's a large name.  For reference here's a link for the rest of us..

http://www.511tactical.com/511-tactical-pant-74251.html   Office Friendly...  Not something like a tan BDU.

here's another
http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=87TP01&C=C1052


Trying to not wander my own point off topic... Looking for Uniformity ( not zip offs).  However, it might be that a public safety pant like these two above are the solution.  Simply because they are less "public consumer" and more "professional" that the styles and designs don't change year to year because the folks who use them want "standardization".

[W3ZR]

Tan pants and blue shirt ?   I am imagining a whole squadron of Best Buy salesmen.

Tan pants are terrible for showing dirt and dust.  Grey or Black is far superior.

[Eclipse]

OK,

Searched the board and didn't see this anywhere....

We beat this to >death< a few months ago.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3448.0

Right now there is enough legit ambiguity in the reg to allow for a variety of pants styles and colors so that most members have something in their closet they can use that is close, and those of us who want to over think it can get something more functional and argue its within regs.

Define it tighter and you risk making a uniform which is supposed to be cheap and easy, hard and expensive, because it'll likely wind up being a Vanguard lock-in and/or specific supplier.

As to zip-offs, it'll never happen.  Other than the few flight schools and special activities which >purport< to have special
waivers for weird uniforms, you'll never see shorts in 39-1.  And frankly, assuming they weren't too extreme looking at the separation, I don't see why you couldn't wear them today, just make sure the legs stay on until you are on the way home or off duty.

I'd be all for adding verbiage explicitly allowing tactical style trousers, but I don't think its really necessary.

As to how hot our existing uniforms are, especially for flying, I don't see it - the flight suits and utilities are paper-thin - cold?  Add thermals and an approved jacket.  Hot?  Go commando (with a t-shirt dickie).   

Our uniforms have to be a compromise for the median-level and type of activities of the majority of our members.

I've participated in missions in the most extreme weather the Midwest has to offer, as well as the 106° Gulf coast oven with 85%+ humidity and have never found a CAP uniform that wasn't appropriate in some form.

Are there more extreme areas of the CONUS that we operate in?  Yes, and >those< wings should be requesting supplements for equipment and uniforms.  Other than that, the only time I give our uniforms a second thought appropriateness-wise is here, CS, or when some goober cadet shows up to a bivouac with a Kevlar helmet.

[billford1]

If there are going to be additions to the corporate golf shirt uniform how about allowing wear of the BBDU trousers with the CAP golf shirt and wear of the reflective CAP ball cap? I think this would be a good hot weather option.

[mikeylikey]

I am going to be honest with everyone here.  MY change at work and drive home clothes are a polo shirt and khaki cargo pants from American Eagle.  Some nights, When I go to CAP and know I am not staying long, I just throw on my CAP polo shirt and my khaki pants.  I have got to say, although not regulation, it looks [darn] sexy!

I wish the uniform Gods at NHQ would allow khaki pants and a CAP polo shirt.  There are more khaki pants available at the Walmart than there are gray.  Plus, khaki tan is a male and female neutral color.  I can't say the same thing for the gray. 

Lets get a petition or something going to make khaki pants the standard with the blue cap polo.  VSAF is already wearing the khaki pants, lets get all of CAP in them.  If I am not mistaken the gray pants came into existence in the early 90's with the change in rank slide color right?!?! 

[Pylon]

Except we're not public safety personnel, so most of the time we don't need to dress and act like law enforcement officers.

We have three field uniforms, two flight uniforms, four completely distinct systems of dress uniforms (with plenty of sub-combinations for each of those four), and a polo shirt uniform.  We have five different coats authorized and six different types of headgear.  How can you possibly not find a combination that works in almost every environment?

What do you need tactical pants for that one of the field or flight uniforms doesn't cover?  As was mentioned above by Eclipse, the current uniform sets work just fine for 95% of our operations in 95% of the climates and situations.   Would it be nice to be able to wear Abercrombie khaki shorts or zip-off tactical pants sometimes?  Probably, but then we wouldn't be very uniform, would we?  And the public safety professionals you mentioned who wear these?  Those tactical pants are probably part of the only everyday uniform they have... they probably only use that uniform or a variant of it for most of their duties.  We have a few hundred possible other combinations to pick from.  I think we're good.

We have way too many uniform combinations as it is (see again my second paragraph above). The polo shirt serves a purpose.  It's an easy uniform for those who just want to help out around the squadron, maybe working on supply or admin, or who want to serve as mission base staff or represent CAP at the local EOC.  It's a cheap way to get somebody into CAP.  But as an individual gets more involved and decides they want to get into more involved operations -- whether that be flight crew, ground teams, color guard competition or something else we all buy more appropriate uniforms.  The polo shirt doesn't fit the bill for wear outside the office/mission base/EOC/squadron meeting/casual flying ops environment.  You want to get involved at a higher level?  We've got you covered because we have other uniforms already made for that purpose.

[Lancer]

I submit that members purchase Dockers, Dickies, Haggar, 511 Tactical, and any other BRAND of GREY slack that meets the reg...

Agreed, and that is also a pet peeve of mine with this uniform option. Not only are the pants different, but belt that is worn is different, the shoes that are worn are different. This also adds to the ambiguity of this uniform combination.

It of course was the easiest way to get a new member in with the $20 shirt that we pay $50 for and I advised all members to use the embroidered with name CAP polo to help everyone get acquainted with one another...

But what about the people that cheap out and buy the silkscreened polo? This shirt needs to go the way of the dodo. The only polo that should exist is the embroidered one. Oh, and if it wasn't for 'The Hock Shop' anyone who needed a + size would be out of luck.

But..... I would love for NHQ to pick a vendor that is a more professional public safety style pant like that 511 tactical or similar.   Grandfather in all of the current pants that we have in the closet and let the attrition and wear weed them out to move toward a uniform pant....   I wouldn't mind to see this pant even have the ExOfficio grey zip off for converting to shorts.

Standing by for FLAME.

While I like the 511 style pant, I agree with others that it's not 'professional looking'. I'd simply be happy if someone at NHQ could find a vendor for the pants, shoes and belt, so we're all in the same product and look UNIFORM, and keep it inexpensive. Please.

[Hawk200]

While I like the 511 style pant, I agree with others that it's not 'professional looking'.

Clarify, please. Why do you believe it's not "professional looking"? What exactly defines that? Most people I know consider them professional in appearance, and I know plenty of professionals that have 5.11 clothing. Our misson settings are equivalent to those people that wear them.

[afgeo4]

I think it'd be great if the polo was authorized to be worn with khaki pants or khaki shorts (summer). That would be of real utility for us as we don't have a summer uniform.

[Dynamite]

I don't see why heat is really an issue. Cadets aren't even allowed to wear the gray pants/polo shirt uniform and we do fine. It's already a lot cooler than anything we're allowed to wear.

It would be nice for it to be a bit more uniform but I don't really think shorts are necessary.

[JayT]

I think it'd be great if the polo was authorized to be worn with khaki pants or khaki shorts (summer). That would be of real utility for us as we don't have a summer uniform.

Niether does the Air Force.......

[Lancer]

Clarify, please. Why do you believe it's not "professional looking"? What exactly defines that? Most people I know consider them professional in appearance, and I know plenty of professionals that have 5.11 clothing. Our mission settings are equivalent to those people that wear them.

Ok, maybe I should have said ' Business Professional looking'.  There is a difference in the perceived appearance between a regular pair of Khaki pants and a pair of khaki 511 pants.

The difference being that the person wearing the 'regular khaki pants' gives more of the appearance of a managerial/office professional type vs. someone wearing the '511 khaki pants' giving the appearance of a utility worker.

Each type has their own purpose, and like I said, I like the 511 pants, and would love to be able to wear them in CAP, i.e. mission related work, but to have a regular pair of khaki's available to wear when the situation calls for them would be nice too.

[Smithsonia]

In Colorado we can start the day at 40 degrees and go to 95 in the afternoon. My problem has been to pick a uniform that can be layered and go from the office(70 degrees) to ramp (95 degrees) to high altitude sortie or ground team (35 degrees) and remain comfortable and appropriate all day without changing clothes completely. I think the Army and Marines have gone to something like 40 different layering possibilities over their basic combat uniform that include t-shirt through heavy parka layered over the basic boot and standard pant combination. How about for CAP...

BBDU Pants, black socks, Boots, and Black-T plus long or short sleeve blue polo, plus military sweater or fleece plus BBDU blouse plus a coat. That would cover every one or two day temperature extreme at least in BBDUs in Colorado. You could add or take off what you needed and take one set of uniforms for mission ramp, sortie, and staff duty on a RedCap/Sarex. This can be packed in one easy to lug bag and is good to go.

Acceptable variety inside one correct uniform seems better than MORE (or different) uniform varieties.

Just an idea. With regards; ED OBRIEN