How "military" should seniors be?

[jpnelson82]

I would just appreciate some guidance on this? I was a cadet for many years and we were always drilling and making sure our military courtesy was up to snuff, now I'm a senior and I'm getting reminded about not being so "military" so I wonder, how "military" should we as seniors be?

[SAR-EMT1]

I love this question and your line of thought, however Im tired at the moment. I'll give you a decent answer when the sun comes up.

[mikeylikey]

never heard that before.  "Be less military".  My advice, do what you were taught as a Cadet, and let everyone else do the wrong thing.  Eventually it will be noticeable that you are tracking, while everyone else (even after your example) sucks.  

May I ask what type of SQD you are in, and the type of Seniors that you work with?  Like...... are they all Soccer Moms, there just to watch after their little Billy or Suzie?  Or are they Seniors that have been going at it for 40 years?  

[JohnKachenmeister]

You should be at the same standards and same level of "Militaryness" as any Guard or Reserve officer serving part time with a unit.

[RiverAux]

Just follow the regulations as closely as you can and that is as "military" as we need to be. 

[Stonewall]

Just follow the regulations as closely as you can and that is as "military" as we need to be. 

That's exactly what I did as a DCC turned CC.  There were 3 or 4 other CAP members in the wing (NOT EVEN IN MY SQUADRON) who never visited for themselves who complained that my squadron's program was too military.  In fact I was told in an email once that I "run a Marine Corps style boot cap".  Funny, the person who said that was the Wing AE officer whose son quit the squadron before I even showed up.  About a year later I was praised for our award winning AE program (my AEO got AEO of the year).

We followed the program to the letter, as much as we were capable of.  As we all know, it can be tough without our own facility which lacked internet, phones and 24 hour access.

Like RiverAux said, "follow the regs as closely as you can".

Of course, some think when senior members all wear military uniforms that it's too military.  But again, people only notice what they want to complain about.  My MLO and AEO never wore military uniforms, only aviator shirts with grey pants with appropriate insignia.  And yes, they still stood in formation.

[MIKE]

Some people just try too hard and it makes them look like some kind militaristic clown... Former cadets especially.  Cadetland can leave some with some weird habits.  Makes me chuckle.  It's laughable... especially when your tiny little "squadron" meets in some church basement in East Podunk.

[Duke Dillio]

I had to insert this quick story.  We had a retired Army drill sergeant show up with his son.  He ended up joining the squadron which was cool and all, until he got his uniform.  Many a cadet quaked in fear for the next month or so until the squadron commander sat the guy down and explained that we weren't running a boot camp.  He kindof eased off a little bit after that but the damage was already pretty much done and none of the cadets would go near him after that.

There are certain times that I do honestly wish that things were "the way they used to be."  I attribute CAP to making me fairly tough skinned from back in the day before the hazing and harassment lawsuits.  There are times when a cadet makes me so mad I want to lock him up and chastise him on the spot.  I have learned to be rather cool about it now though.  I tend to hang back and let the leadership officer do their job while I secretly plot to unlearn all of the cadets during ES missions (do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field?)

A quick analogy that some might understand is the difference between basic training and life in a special forces unit.  In basic, it is all about "toeing the line" and doing lots of push-ups and getting reduced to pond scum before being raised to stinkweed and then back to pond scum.  Compare that with special forces units where I believe they call each other by first name and don't do any type of drill.  I try to find the happy median between the two.  That would be about how "military" I am anymore.

[DC]

I think seniors should maintain some sense of military decorum, but they don't need to be Drill Sergeants. I appriciate SMs that can return my salute properly and wear their uniform properly.

On the other hand, I think Cadet Program Officers need to be worthy of their cadets, so in my opinion they should be on par with their senior cadets. I don't think they need to be drill gods, but if they are physically capable I think they should know the basics. They should be able to wear a uniform very well, wether its the aviator shirt, blues, whatever. They should take customs and courtesies seriously, and just generally set a good example for the cadets. One of the issues I have with SMs I see in composite squadrons is they basically ignore the cadet program. If they don't want to openly participate that's fine, but they should at least be professional and set a good example. In a senior squadron I think it can be relaxed somewhat, as long as they get the job done.

[RiverAux]

do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field

worried about snipers, are you?

[Duke Dillio]

No, not so much snipers.  Until recently, the only uniform I have worn in the field was the CA wing GT uniform (orange shirt, blue pants) which has no rank insignia on it.

Then again, the snipers do scare me sometimes.....

[Flying Pig]

Anything the Seniors do will naturally have an effect on the cadets, but in his initial post, I got the impression "jpnelson" is wanting to know how military the senior program needs to be.

[Flying Pig]

I was a former cadet myself from 87-92.  About 1997, I rejoined after the military and was made the DCC.  I am now a Sq. Commander.  I think if you always maintain your bearing and customs and courtesies and uniform properly, you may find it rubbing off on some.  Others, there is nothing you can do.  Now as the Sq. Commander one of the things I have discovered is that CAP doesn't just happen on its own.  And that is what I tell cadets who complain that a Senior may be overweight, may not wear the uniform properly, etc.  Is that an excuse, no, but its a reality.

As a Squadron Commander, my BIGGEST concern is that you do the job you told me you would do, and do it right.  If you can bring a military bearing package with you, then all the better, but I need people who can do their assigned task long before I worry to much about whether they can drill or not.  A senior who shows up all starched and pressed and stands at attention in the corner isn't of much use to me.

Former cadets have a valuable place in the Senior ranks.  But the Senior program is what makes CAP actually operate.  As a former cadet, continue to operate in all aspects of CAP as you know how.  Bring the bearing with you, wear the uniform as you were taught, and salute and render customs and courtesies as you were taught as a cadet.  I don't know how long you have been a Senior, but as time moves on, you will find a balance between the two.  But what I can tell you is that as a Senior, your reputation will be judged on how you perform your duties in making the program operate, not on how many shoe shinning contests you have won.  As a former cadet, always maintain your connection with the cadet programs. Because when you get an itch for the old days, there is nothing like taking a trip down memory lane by volunteering for an NCOS, BCS, etc.  It can almost be surreal.  And you'll probably be amazed at how many former cadets, over time, seem to wander back to CAP later in life.

[jimmydeanno]

There is an inherent difference between what people think is "military" and what the military actually "acts" like.

Cadets tend to get an impression that the BMT MTI is what the normal military operates like and try to bring that at all times.  Which, when a cadet can be acceptable.

However, seniors acting more military than the military just makes you look dumb and overbearing.  Frequently seniors (who were cadets) do have to "be less military" because their perspective is skewed and their behavior isn't condusive to the relationship needed between cadets and seniors and seniors and the cadets parents.  

It is a learning experience.

[DNall]

Some people just try too hard and it makes them look like some kind militaristic clown... Former cadets especially.  Cadetland can leave some with some weird habits.  Makes me chuckle.  It's laughable... especially when your tiny little "squadron" meets in some church basement in East Podunk.

All that cadet command time with five cadets and three seniors, one of whom is a soccer-mom, and the just exceptional cadet programs officers we always tend to get - you know the ones that either stay in the sr area gabbing the night away or the den mother type. Yeah, that sure does prepare them to be a subject matter expert and just military as all get out. /sarcasm

There is an inherent difference between what people think is "military" and what the military actually "acts" like.

Granted. I'm in a guard aviation unit, a HHC at that. There's no saluting, and everyone is first name, at least on the officer side. It's pretty casual in some ways, but in others it's very serious.

Some of that is just sloppy. Some is a case of being secure in who we are, or rather the public perception of who we are (not hard when you got a big honkin Apache, tapes say US Army, unit just back from Iraq, and I still gotta take a freakin PT test).

With CAP it's being sloppy/lazy on one hand. Not having quality initial entry indoctrination. And, we're not organizationally secure in who we are, at least not the mil vs less-mil question, and we're certainly not confident about the public perception of that status. So, we tend to have a bit of a napoleon complex on the issue. As long as that's motivation toward what the regs say versus being sloppy, then I think it works out about even.

[flyerthom]

do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field

worried about snipers, are you?

Only on Ebay...   

Ebay sniper?

I'm in a senior squadron with a lot of retired military. They seem to the most uninterested in the military aspect. Flip that coin and they do the most to inspire a professional demeanor. If they come in Golf and Grays they are clean crisp and look  business casual. If they are in aviator and grays the bling is where it's supposed to be and understated. If they come from work the suit isn't rumpled and they look professional.

I guess the best way to say this is, while seniors don't have to act like a Drill team, we should strive to be as professional in appearance as we can.

Senior member drill team?

[jb512]

My opinion is to be as "military" as common sense dictates, and all of the good examples seem to have been made in the thread.  If you're in a cadet or composite squadron and you're leading cadets, you need to be at par with the cadets in leadership positions.  If you're in a senior flying club, wearing polo shirts and never raising a hand for a salute is normal at some squadrons.

As a fomer cadet also, I wear shirt garters and ribbons when the cadets wear blues, and starched BDUs and shined boots when they wear BDUs.  I think you can say a lot more by your looks than you can with your mouth... especially with cadets.  They tend to notice every detail.

[floridacyclist]

And make fun of you behind your back when you don't

[jpnelson82]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate the advice. :clap: It is all helpful. I am in a composite squadron, by the way. Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC but then I remind myself that the squadron works well enough as it is, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. I do believe it's a good thing that there are seniors like myself and others who do know how to drill (or are drill gods) and know the customs and courtesies. It helps maintains credibility with the cadets and stops them getting away with being sloppy about it. I do run into problems when there's a situation among seniors where drill is called for .....

[Short Field]

Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC ....

In the USAF, we stopped drilling as soon as we got out of basic training.  In Tech School you fell into formation, marched to class, then fell out of formation.  Once you got to the real world, that was the end of it.  I always thought Commanders who wanted to march their troops had lost touch with reality - and never saw any actually follow though with it.   Get a bunch of USAF personnel together who have more than 10 years time in service and forget about marching!  So give your senior members a break.

By the way, I competed - and won - as a member of a US Army rifle drill team so I can walk the walk.
 

[mmouw]

The one thing I always thought was impressive is to have a "complete" squadron march in a parade. If you have 30-40 members, what an impression. Even if they are not all in the same uniform, it still looks like an organization and not just a youth program.

With that in mind, I think if the senior members are willing or can be convinced, then drill on.

[Stonewall]

The only D&C I've ever expected from my seniors was opening formation and, if necessary, closing formation for awards.  Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

In reality, seniors should have a  lot more to do than march.  With only about 2 hours a week to run a small Air Force, I'd rather have them being more productive.

[O-Rex]

Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC but then I remind myself that the squadron works well enough as it is, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

If you're looking at things from a traditional military perspective, Officers don't drill: period.  As for formations, at least from an Army perspective (my own personal experience,) the only ones that actually stood in the formation was the Company Commander and Platoon leaders.  Your misc. officers, mostly Warrant Officer Pilots, just kind of hung in the back.

Most CAP Composite Squadrons tend to be like the example above.

As for Seniors being too-military or not military enough, I like DNall's statement that our Level one is a bit "thin" and organizationally we're kind of in the middle of an 'identity crisis' right now (Corp vs. Aux.)  Pseudo-Officers or Lodge members? The truth probably lies somewhere in-between.

Historically, In CAP you'll get the full spectrum, from folks with starched undies to "patron members on active-duty."  Most fall somewhere in between, however, it's the extremes that stand out in the minds of others, and make the impression....

Just be yourself, forthright and respectful of others as people (regardless of rank,) wear a sharp uniform (or a clean golf shirt) and you'll be fine.

[SARMedTech]

It seems to me that an officer should be as military as he or she can be given either past experience or current inclination. If we state, as many have consistently, that the cadet experience is meant to be as military as possible and they look to Senior Officers for guidance, its my belief that officers out to be as military as they are capable of being, and for me this includes not wearing and never owning a golf shirt.

And I think, most military officers, unless they became officers by some direct entry program, have stood and marched drill at one time or another. But I could be wrong, being as I am a pseudo-officer in a para-military organization.

[JoeTomasone]

Senior Members should be expected to adhere to 39-1 and CAPP 151.   Why?  'Cause it's the regs, like it or not.

As a former cadet, I'm pretty shocked to see the lax attitude concerning customs/courtesies and the proper wear of the uniform, both by seniors AND cadets - and the cadets are the worse offenders IMHO.

I'd say that 90% of the cadets I encounter don't even know that the BDU cap is supposed to be stored in the BDU pants cargo pocket when not being worn.    I've had cadets show up to group/wing activities with missing cutouts ("Our Squadron doesn't have them" - oh, I guess Vanguard is out, too), cadet officers with metal grade insignia on the BDU cap (way to lead by example!) and cadets with absolutely nothing on their BDUs - no nametape, CAP tape, insignia, nothing.   

Now, I'm sensitive to the fact that we are all volunteers and that good people are hard to find, but I think that once you start lowering standards to keep the "good people", you wind up with mostly lousy ones.   I've seen it happen in other volunteer organizations and it's not healthy.   Make people live up to the expected standard and more people will strive to get there.   If you constantly make exceptions because you "don't want to lose so-and-so", then you are essentially saying that any violations of the regs will be tolerated since the person can always threaten to quit on you.


By failing to ensure that everyone lives up to what is expected of them (i.e. the regs), you risk a program full of people who think the rules do not apply to them - and then what happens when it's something more serious?   "Oh, come on, Bob, what do you mean I need TWO seniors at an overnight activity?"

I'll say it again - if you have members who don't want to wear their nation's uniform properly or act in accordance with what wearing said uniform requires, then there are plenty of other volunteer programs that will gladly have them.  If you choose to keep such members and not require them to observe the regs, then don't complain when you have morale or discipline issues.

</rant>

[JoeTomasone]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

[mikeylikey]

And I think, most military officers, unless they became officers by some direct entry program, have stood and marched drill at one time or another. But I could be wrong, being as I am a pseudo-officer in a para-military organization.

You are correct.  In fact New AF Officers drill and stand in formations at their basic course at Maxwell.  

As far as Officers go in the Army, most are in formation for morning PT (which is before the duty day, unlike the AF).  Staff Officers are usually found in their own formation behind the formation for official functions.  I know I had my Staff stand with everyone else for retreat each evening.  When I took Command, the practice was enlisted would fall outside for retreat and the Officers would sneak away at that time.  I put an end to that, and would then take my Officers for a run Monday-Thursday and drinks at the club on Friday.  (That is not very typical, but built stronger relationships between the Officers)

[SARMedTech]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

Which once again gives the false impression that CAP is a non-profit, part time military school. Follow the regs involving all matters, or retire, whether you are a senior or a cadet. Its just not that difficult.

[Stonewall]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

For the most part, yes.  Like it or not.  I'm a former cadet too, in FLWG.  Also prior active military and current Guard.  I think you're worried about too much of the small stuff when you expect senior members to salute each other.  Traditionally we should, and I do.  But I learned a long time ago as a young senior member that it ain't going to happen and worrying about it is a waste of time.  It gets old hearing  a 60 year old Lt Col tell me, a young lieutenant or captain, to stop saluting him "there's no cadets around".  No sense in making an issue out of it when that 60 year old has our admin section inspection ready at any given time.

While you and I may practice such customs and courtesies, regardless of cadets being in our presense, it isn't worth making an issue out of others not doing the same.

See, even the "Setting the Example" section of my 24 page Senior Member Handbook said so.

Some rules to live by as a senior at Fairfax

•   No smoking in the presence of cadets.
•   No consuming alcohol or being intoxicated in the presence of cadets.
•   No profanity in the presence of cadets.
•   If not in uniform, seniors should wear appropriate clothing not promoting drugs, alcohol,
    smoking, or profanity and should be in good taste in general.
•   When you think cadets are not looking or paying attention, they are.
•   Always use proper military customs and courtesies.  If saluted, return the salute.  Address
    cadets by their rank (or as "cadet") and last name.
•   In the presence of cadets, address fellow seniors by their rank and last name.  Respect
    and customs and courtesies are contagious.
•   Never let cadets see or hear seniors argue, or otherwise acting unprofessional.
•   If you wear CAP's military style uniform, you must meet weight and grooming standards.
•   Treat cadets as young adults, not as children.  Let them make some mistakes, but do not let
     them get hurt.
•   You are encouraged to interact with cadets.  Curious?  Ask them what they're doing, but try
    not to interfere if they are engrossed in a class or project.
•   Enjoy our program!

Emphasis mine.

[addo1]

I would just appreciate some guidance on this? I was a cadet for many years and we were always drilling and making sure our military courtesy was up to snuff, now I'm a senior and I'm getting reminded about not being so "military" so I wonder, how "military" should we as seniors be?

  Well, we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary.  I have never heard that either.  I think that all members, whether cadets or senior members should mantain a sense of discipline and courtesy.  It is important for all members, as it helps us keep a sense of unity.

[JoeTomasone]

I think you're worried about too much of the small stuff when you expect senior members to salute each other.  Traditionally we should, and I do.

No, actually, I'm worried about the big picture.   If we Seniors don't walk the talk, how do we expect to have Cadets doing the same?   For that matter, who gets to decide which regs need to be followed and which are, well, optional?   

  But I learned a long time ago as a young senior member that it ain't going to happen and worrying about it is a waste of time.  It gets old hearing  a 60 year old Lt Col tell me, a young lieutenant or captain, to stop saluting him "there's no cadets around".  No sense in making an issue out of it when that 60 year old has our admin section inspection ready at any given time.

OK, so you are concerned that pointing out to a Lt. Col (who should know better) that adherence to the regulations is something you feel is important, cadets present or no, opens you to retaliation?    I'd give that Lt. Col. a piece of my mind and then tell the I.G. that if CAPP 151 is optional, then it's not really insubordination, is it?

[/quote]

While you and I may practice such customs and courtesies, regardless of cadets being in our presense, it isn't worth making an issue out of others doing so.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this.   I'm all for a friendly work environment, but I draw the line at a wholesale disregard of what is right and proper.

Tell me, does that Lt. Col address the WG/CC as "Chris" or "Sir"?

[Stonewall]

OK, so you are concerned that pointing out to a Lt. Col (who should know better) that adherence to the regulations is something you feel is important, cadets present or no, opens you to retaliation?    I'd give that Lt. Col. a piece of my mind and then tell the I.G. that if CAPP 151 is optional, then it's not really insubordination, is it?

No, I'm not concerned about it.  I'm not worried about it at all.  I guess you're a tough guy and would tell the Lt Col to go home or you'll call IG on him.  Meanwhile you just took 5 more hours of squadron work home with you.

Tell me, does that Lt. Col address the WG/CC as "Chris" or "Sir"?

At a wing commander's call, at the bar, in the airplane or during our annual Christmas gathering at the Wing King's house?  Well, it depends on which Wing Commander you're talking about. 

Let's see if I can remember them all.  I would have called them Gene, Stan, Rolland, Frank, Jane....

If we were at an FTX, encampment, or model rocketry weekend, I'd call them Colonel, sir, ma'am, or whatever appropriate.

Here's the environment I came from:

Our Comms guy was a Major and retired AF Chief Master Sergeant.  I had a Deputy Commander for seniors who is a retired army colonel.  A leadership officer who was an active duty air force captain.  An AEO who is a former army captain.   While me, I'm a CAP Lt Col and at the time, an E-5 in the Air Guard.  If they don't want to salute me, I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch.  Good thing is, we had good training and I didn't get uptight or freak out about these types of things so they understood what to do and when to do it.  So it was never an issue.

Treat them as if they must salute you and I think you'll find some Resistance.

[jeders]

Being a former cadet officer and a current senior member, here's what I think. As lots of people have said, follow the regs as best as possible and be professional, the little things will work themselves out.

Not having been in the Air Force, I don't know if this is exactly how it works, but here is my understanding. When you're under AETC doing your training and such, you do all of the things that people think of as "being military". Drilling, inspections, etc, etc... Once you get to the "operational" Air Force, you still salute and use proper customs and courtesies, but all the other things like marching and being anal retentive over salutes and such sorta goes out the window.

To bring this to CAP, cadetland should be run more or less like AETC, whereas seniorland is more like the operational Air Force. As long as the job gets done and everyone is professional about it, who cares if most seniors know how to march.

[SARMedTech]

The odd thing is, in other threads, we have heard much talk about how the USCGAUX isnt military enough, because they dont salute or use ranks. Well we do both, or at least we are supposed to, and we are only half para-military.

If it has a higher rank than you do, salute it. If it doesn't call it cadet and treat it respectfully.

[jimmydeanno]

If it has a higher rank than you do, salute it. If it doesn't call it cadet and treat it respectfully.

It puts the lotion on its body...

I don't know that too many 50 year old Captains would appreciate me calling them "Cadet." 

[PA Guy]

Part of the problem is that fewer and fewer senior members have any prior military experience.  The result of this is that some have a very warped idea of what day to day life in a military unit is like.  If you asked the typical USAF field grade officer when they last drilled you would probably get a blank stare.

Yes, you wear the uniform according to 39-1, salute when appropriate and use titles when called for. However, the Kabuki like atomsphere sometimes found in the cadet program doesn't work in the senior program or the everyday USAF.

[Smithsonia]

I've seen it go both way. Some Militaristic Commander want a spit-shined cadre that can leave some of us Seniors perplexed. OR, too casual and informal commanders leave things left undone and Senior members unsatisfied. Some of us have long and highly successful "civilian" careers. Some of us have done major things. Even some of us have worked as civilians among the military for many years and have spoken as appreciated lecturers offering thought provoking ideas and concepts to the highest echelons of the military. I've worked for the Marines, Navy, NASA, Homeland Security, and a few more. I think it is a "When in Rome" thing. Commanders and cadre need to be pliable.

Don't denegrate an active member for Fat and Fuzzy for instance. That guy may be exactly the right guy for things the military won't understand or come across for another 20 years.

Appreciation of the best and brightest, hardest working and most energetic, best person for the job v best presentation on the job... should count for something.

In my squadron I'm proud to be among people from varied backgrounds pulling in the same direction. Some are/were accomplished military pilots with fine war records, some pilots with 30 years at only civilian airlines, some just good ol boys who want to dedicate themselves to their country. Shaming a senior for a minor uniform dig... doesn't always help accomplish the mission.

I'm not that military myself. BUT, on a few things, I've got Generals and Admirals in the Pentagon paying plenty for my work. The real deal professional military wants the insight, they don't care a darn about my saluting technique. Your mileage may very, of course...

Modesty, accomodation, plasticity, trust, understanding, and appreciation of the diversity in the squadron are my recommendations.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO/WG Heritage Project Coordinator

PS -- I do appreciate the military guys in my squadron who know how to throw a proper salute, pull off the proper bearing, follow all the rules of protocol. They are inspiring enough to make me want to practice and get better at it. In this way I follow through their inspiration... I don't want to let them down... I want to do it better... "When I AM in Rome." So to speak.

[RiverAux]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

[lordmonar]

It's all about the mission.

In the RM we use drill for a specific purpose.  After we acheive that purpose we don't use it anymore.

If we need to be more "military" to accomplish the mission then let's define the objective, come up with a training plan and execute it.

But IMHO we don't need it.

[DC]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

I agree, unless they are training a Drill Team there is no practical reason for seniors to drill or know how. However, I would expect them to be able to stand at attention for 10 minutes for a formation and be able to properly execute a salute. The vast majority of seniors I have interacted with could not, or would not do either one. It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.

[Hawk200]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

I agree, unless they are training a Drill Team there is no practical reason for seniors to drill or know how.

I think they ought to be familiar with it, but not necessarily perform drill and ceremonies. Wouldn't hurt for a senior to be able to knowledgeably speak to a cadet about it. Cadets ask seniors things, it's a given in our organization.

However, I would expect them to be able to stand at attention for 10 minutes for a formation and be able to properly execute a salute. The vast majority of seniors I have interacted with could not, or would not do either one. It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.

Agreed. Especially, if the senior opts to wear an Air Force variant uniform. It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

[Short Field]

It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

Agree.  If you talk the talk......  But I will pass on holding my breath until that happens. 

[JoeTomasone]

It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.

AMEN.

The quickest way to make people lose respect for you is to make them think that you believe that you don't have to obey the rules.

[Hawk200]

It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

Agree.  If you talk the talk......  But I will pass on holding my breath until that happens. 

Talking the talk can be an issue too.

I can't even remember how many times I've had some yahoo trying to sell me a line of crap when it was obvious that they have never been to a military installation, and the closest thing they had to a serving relative was a grandfather or great uncle that was in during the world wars (who died before they were five).

I think we need an expanded Level I, such as a familiarization course that lasts for numerous meetings, not just one. Some introduction to some CAP and AF history, some familiarization with D&C (nothing extensive, since they won't use it much afterwards), and a good class on proper uniform wear (regardless of which one they choose). A good class on C&C would be ideal, too.

We need to eliminate the ignorance that seems to abound at times.

[lordmonar]

I would not be opposed to requring all officers passing the Wright Brothers test including the drill portion as part of Level II training.

With appropriat waivers for those with handicaps.

[Stonewall]

I would not be opposed to requring all officers passing the Wright Brothers test including the drill portion as part of Level II training.

With appropriat waivers for those with handicaps.

At a local TLC last year, I was called in to teach seniors 2 topics, cadet programs management or promoting (forgot which) and a one hour intro to basic (very basic) D&C, which include stationary movements and customs and courtesies (basically saluting).

JoeTomasone:   For some reason you think I'm against seniors performing military customs and courtesies and having working knowledge of basic D&C movements.  However, the opposite is true.  At both of my squadrons in DCWG, all SENIORS and cadets were in formation at the beginning of each meeting and 90% the seniors were good about the usual C&C stuff.  That said, no one, to include myself, got worked up or even made a spot correction when someone didn't salute a ranking officer, especially out of view from cadets.

While your world may be different, mine is one of reality.  Many members have zero interest in the military aspect of CAP and while I question their membership, I have to respect their goals and interests.  I just hope that they don't hang around the cadet side of the house, which they generally don't (because they have no interest in it).

[Eagle400]

Part of the problem is that fewer and fewer senior members have any prior military experience.  The result of this is that some have a very warped idea of what day to day life in a military unit is like.  If you asked the typical USAF field grade officer when they last drilled you would probably get a blank stare.

Yes, you wear the uniform according to 39-1, salute when appropriate and use titles when called for. However, the Kabuki like atomsphere sometimes found in the cadet program doesn't work in the senior program or the everyday USAF.

These problems would go away rather quickly if CAP's officer professional development was like Air Force PME.  It is time for CAP to start making its professional development challenging and more academic. 

Make no mistake: it's not the result of a lack of prior military service; it is the result of a professional development system that does not challenge the individual and enables those without prior military service to make up their own idea of what day to day military life is like.

So how "military" should seniors be?  Military enough to know the difference between "corporate civilian" and "regulated military", and act accordingly.

But that will only happen in large numbers when CAP professional development makes the distinction between "corporate civilian" and "regulated military."  As it stands now, there is no distinction and the result is thousands of non-prior service seniors who see what is presented (which is mostly of a corporate civilian flavor) and just assume that this training is an accurate representation of life in the day to day military.

You do not need military experience to be a good leader or manager, however...

You would think that an organization that has the distinction of being the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary would at least have professional development training of a more military flavor so folks don't get a warped idea of what military life is like and act on that assumption. 

So my solution to the problem of seniors not being "military" enough is simple - make the professional development more military (and give the folks an accurate representation of what military life is like), and the military mindset will follow.  How military?  As military as Air Force PME. 

For a lot of folks, CAP professional development needs to be a transformation from the "corporate civilian" mindset to the "regulated military" mindset, and not just a run-of-the-mill power point session with some story telling.  That is what it is now, and it needs to change.  Until it does, most senior members who do not have military or cadet experience will continue to assume that CAP professional development is an accurate representation of military life and consider it sufficient.

[JoeTomasone]

JoeTomasone:   For some reason you think I'm against seniors performing military customs and courtesies and having working knowledge of basic D&C movements. 

No, you just seem to be very unconcerned about it; from my thinking that's part of the overall problem.   I'm not saying that every missed salute requires a talking-to, but when it's repeated/chronic, especially when combined with other exhibitions of a lack of military bearing, I do indeed think that corrective actions are warranted.

That being said, I do NOT think that Seniors should be required to know any more drill than is required to fall in, fall out, and stand in formation when required, report-as-ordered,  and properly lead a formation (especially if they are the DCC or such).    But they do NOT need to know about columns, change step, etc.

While your world may be different, mine is one of reality.  Many members have zero interest in the military aspect of CAP and while I question their membership, I have to respect their goals and interests.

You, on the other hand, seem to equate a desire for living up to what you signed up for to be something of a dream world that I'm living in.   Those members knew what they were signing up for -- or the unit they visited/joined wasn't practicing proper C&C either.  When I joined CAP, both as a Cadet AND when I rejoined as a Senior, I knew what was expected of me, and I do my best to live up to it.    How can I, in good conscience, expect any less than I am willing to do myself?  Of course, the corollary is that if you expect less, you are likely to get less, and if you expect nothing, you are more likely to get nothing.

We have the same issue in Comms.    The number of people who don't properly employ prowords is alarming.  Do I stop on everyone's toes on the repeater?  No.  Do I have a discreet, positive "corrective" chat with those I meet in person?  Sure.   And I make sure that *I* am operating as perfectly as possible, because I am trying to set the example.   

[O-Rex]

The key to professionalism is moderation: lean too far to either end of the spectrum, and you become a living, walking joke.

[Stonewall]

Joe, PM inbound.  (Took our stuff offline).