How "military" should seniors be?

[jpnelson82]

I would just appreciate some guidance on this? I was a cadet for many years and we were always drilling and making sure our military courtesy was up to snuff, now I'm a senior and I'm getting reminded about not being so "military" so I wonder, how "military" should we as seniors be?

[SAR-EMT1]

I love this question and your line of thought, however Im tired at the moment. I'll give you a decent answer when the sun comes up.

[mikeylikey]

never heard that before.  "Be less military".  My advice, do what you were taught as a Cadet, and let everyone else do the wrong thing.  Eventually it will be noticeable that you are tracking, while everyone else (even after your example) sucks.  

May I ask what type of SQD you are in, and the type of Seniors that you work with?  Like...... are they all Soccer Moms, there just to watch after their little Billy or Suzie?  Or are they Seniors that have been going at it for 40 years?  

[JohnKachenmeister]

You should be at the same standards and same level of "Militaryness" as any Guard or Reserve officer serving part time with a unit.

[RiverAux]

Just follow the regulations as closely as you can and that is as "military" as we need to be. 

[Stonewall]

Just follow the regulations as closely as you can and that is as "military" as we need to be. 

That's exactly what I did as a DCC turned CC.  There were 3 or 4 other CAP members in the wing (NOT EVEN IN MY SQUADRON) who never visited for themselves who complained that my squadron's program was too military.  In fact I was told in an email once that I "run a Marine Corps style boot cap".  Funny, the person who said that was the Wing AE officer whose son quit the squadron before I even showed up.  About a year later I was praised for our award winning AE program (my AEO got AEO of the year).

We followed the program to the letter, as much as we were capable of.  As we all know, it can be tough without our own facility which lacked internet, phones and 24 hour access.

Like RiverAux said, "follow the regs as closely as you can".

Of course, some think when senior members all wear military uniforms that it's too military.  But again, people only notice what they want to complain about.  My MLO and AEO never wore military uniforms, only aviator shirts with grey pants with appropriate insignia.  And yes, they still stood in formation.

[MIKE]

Some people just try too hard and it makes them look like some kind militaristic clown... Former cadets especially.  Cadetland can leave some with some weird habits.  Makes me chuckle.  It's laughable... especially when your tiny little "squadron" meets in some church basement in East Podunk.

[Duke Dillio]

I had to insert this quick story.  We had a retired Army drill sergeant show up with his son.  He ended up joining the squadron which was cool and all, until he got his uniform.  Many a cadet quaked in fear for the next month or so until the squadron commander sat the guy down and explained that we weren't running a boot camp.  He kindof eased off a little bit after that but the damage was already pretty much done and none of the cadets would go near him after that.

There are certain times that I do honestly wish that things were "the way they used to be."  I attribute CAP to making me fairly tough skinned from back in the day before the hazing and harassment lawsuits.  There are times when a cadet makes me so mad I want to lock him up and chastise him on the spot.  I have learned to be rather cool about it now though.  I tend to hang back and let the leadership officer do their job while I secretly plot to unlearn all of the cadets during ES missions (do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field?)

A quick analogy that some might understand is the difference between basic training and life in a special forces unit.  In basic, it is all about "toeing the line" and doing lots of push-ups and getting reduced to pond scum before being raised to stinkweed and then back to pond scum.  Compare that with special forces units where I believe they call each other by first name and don't do any type of drill.  I try to find the happy median between the two.  That would be about how "military" I am anymore.

[DC]

I think seniors should maintain some sense of military decorum, but they don't need to be Drill Sergeants. I appriciate SMs that can return my salute properly and wear their uniform properly.

On the other hand, I think Cadet Program Officers need to be worthy of their cadets, so in my opinion they should be on par with their senior cadets. I don't think they need to be drill gods, but if they are physically capable I think they should know the basics. They should be able to wear a uniform very well, wether its the aviator shirt, blues, whatever. They should take customs and courtesies seriously, and just generally set a good example for the cadets. One of the issues I have with SMs I see in composite squadrons is they basically ignore the cadet program. If they don't want to openly participate that's fine, but they should at least be professional and set a good example. In a senior squadron I think it can be relaxed somewhat, as long as they get the job done.

[RiverAux]

do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field

worried about snipers, are you?

[Duke Dillio]

No, not so much snipers.  Until recently, the only uniform I have worn in the field was the CA wing GT uniform (orange shirt, blue pants) which has no rank insignia on it.

Then again, the snipers do scare me sometimes.....

[Flying Pig]

Anything the Seniors do will naturally have an effect on the cadets, but in his initial post, I got the impression "jpnelson" is wanting to know how military the senior program needs to be.

[Flying Pig]

I was a former cadet myself from 87-92.  About 1997, I rejoined after the military and was made the DCC.  I am now a Sq. Commander.  I think if you always maintain your bearing and customs and courtesies and uniform properly, you may find it rubbing off on some.  Others, there is nothing you can do.  Now as the Sq. Commander one of the things I have discovered is that CAP doesn't just happen on its own.  And that is what I tell cadets who complain that a Senior may be overweight, may not wear the uniform properly, etc.  Is that an excuse, no, but its a reality.

As a Squadron Commander, my BIGGEST concern is that you do the job you told me you would do, and do it right.  If you can bring a military bearing package with you, then all the better, but I need people who can do their assigned task long before I worry to much about whether they can drill or not.  A senior who shows up all starched and pressed and stands at attention in the corner isn't of much use to me.

Former cadets have a valuable place in the Senior ranks.  But the Senior program is what makes CAP actually operate.  As a former cadet, continue to operate in all aspects of CAP as you know how.  Bring the bearing with you, wear the uniform as you were taught, and salute and render customs and courtesies as you were taught as a cadet.  I don't know how long you have been a Senior, but as time moves on, you will find a balance between the two.  But what I can tell you is that as a Senior, your reputation will be judged on how you perform your duties in making the program operate, not on how many shoe shinning contests you have won.  As a former cadet, always maintain your connection with the cadet programs. Because when you get an itch for the old days, there is nothing like taking a trip down memory lane by volunteering for an NCOS, BCS, etc.  It can almost be surreal.  And you'll probably be amazed at how many former cadets, over time, seem to wander back to CAP later in life.

[jimmydeanno]

There is an inherent difference between what people think is "military" and what the military actually "acts" like.

Cadets tend to get an impression that the BMT MTI is what the normal military operates like and try to bring that at all times.  Which, when a cadet can be acceptable.

However, seniors acting more military than the military just makes you look dumb and overbearing.  Frequently seniors (who were cadets) do have to "be less military" because their perspective is skewed and their behavior isn't condusive to the relationship needed between cadets and seniors and seniors and the cadets parents.  

It is a learning experience.

[DNall]

Some people just try too hard and it makes them look like some kind militaristic clown... Former cadets especially.  Cadetland can leave some with some weird habits.  Makes me chuckle.  It's laughable... especially when your tiny little "squadron" meets in some church basement in East Podunk.

All that cadet command time with five cadets and three seniors, one of whom is a soccer-mom, and the just exceptional cadet programs officers we always tend to get - you know the ones that either stay in the sr area gabbing the night away or the den mother type. Yeah, that sure does prepare them to be a subject matter expert and just military as all get out. /sarcasm

There is an inherent difference between what people think is "military" and what the military actually "acts" like.

Granted. I'm in a guard aviation unit, a HHC at that. There's no saluting, and everyone is first name, at least on the officer side. It's pretty casual in some ways, but in others it's very serious.

Some of that is just sloppy. Some is a case of being secure in who we are, or rather the public perception of who we are (not hard when you got a big honkin Apache, tapes say US Army, unit just back from Iraq, and I still gotta take a freakin PT test).

With CAP it's being sloppy/lazy on one hand. Not having quality initial entry indoctrination. And, we're not organizationally secure in who we are, at least not the mil vs less-mil question, and we're certainly not confident about the public perception of that status. So, we tend to have a bit of a napoleon complex on the issue. As long as that's motivation toward what the regs say versus being sloppy, then I think it works out about even.

[flyerthom]

do you know how hard it is to teach a cadet not to salute you in the field

worried about snipers, are you?

Only on Ebay...   

Ebay sniper?

I'm in a senior squadron with a lot of retired military. They seem to the most uninterested in the military aspect. Flip that coin and they do the most to inspire a professional demeanor. If they come in Golf and Grays they are clean crisp and look  business casual. If they are in aviator and grays the bling is where it's supposed to be and understated. If they come from work the suit isn't rumpled and they look professional.

I guess the best way to say this is, while seniors don't have to act like a Drill team, we should strive to be as professional in appearance as we can.

Senior member drill team?

[jb512]

My opinion is to be as "military" as common sense dictates, and all of the good examples seem to have been made in the thread.  If you're in a cadet or composite squadron and you're leading cadets, you need to be at par with the cadets in leadership positions.  If you're in a senior flying club, wearing polo shirts and never raising a hand for a salute is normal at some squadrons.

As a fomer cadet also, I wear shirt garters and ribbons when the cadets wear blues, and starched BDUs and shined boots when they wear BDUs.  I think you can say a lot more by your looks than you can with your mouth... especially with cadets.  They tend to notice every detail.

[floridacyclist]

And make fun of you behind your back when you don't

[jpnelson82]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate the advice. :clap: It is all helpful. I am in a composite squadron, by the way. Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC but then I remind myself that the squadron works well enough as it is, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. I do believe it's a good thing that there are seniors like myself and others who do know how to drill (or are drill gods) and know the customs and courtesies. It helps maintains credibility with the cadets and stops them getting away with being sloppy about it. I do run into problems when there's a situation among seniors where drill is called for .....

[Short Field]

Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC ....

In the USAF, we stopped drilling as soon as we got out of basic training.  In Tech School you fell into formation, marched to class, then fell out of formation.  Once you got to the real world, that was the end of it.  I always thought Commanders who wanted to march their troops had lost touch with reality - and never saw any actually follow though with it.   Get a bunch of USAF personnel together who have more than 10 years time in service and forget about marching!  So give your senior members a break.

By the way, I competed - and won - as a member of a US Army rifle drill team so I can walk the walk.