is a 90 day reprimand the same thing as a demotion?

[CAP_truth]

I have been in this organization on and off for over 28 years and I have seen many commanders not promoting members just because they do not wish that person to holder a higher grade than they have. The promotion system in CAP needs to be redone. We should use the SUI guide as a job performance gauge to see if members are performing up to standards. If the member meets all other requirements and gets a outstanding grade they should be promoted. If they get and exceed level for X evaluations the should be considered should promote. If they meet standards they for X evaluations they should be eligible for promotion. Evaluations should be 1 for 2nd Lt., 1 for 1st. Lt., 2 for Capt, 3 for Maj., 4 for Lt. Col. Some one please tell me per CAPR 35-5 what is Section B: 11;A;5) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. When I was squadron commander I used the SUI as my guide lines. This is my view.

[Grumpy]

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

Great in theroy, but it's my job as Personnel and PD Officer to do these. Yes, when I meet the requirements, I schedule a discussion with my commander to review it with him before submitting. But I usually initiate the process. I also imitate the process for the other seniors in my unit. Again, it's my job to do that.

Should I be doing my job for everyone (incld. the cc) except me?

The Squadron/CC is on the Group/CC's staff.  If you don't have a Group then it would be the Wing Staff.  Therefore, your CC's promotions come from higher headquarters.  Since you answer directly to the squadron CC they would put you in for promotion.

[RiverAux]

In regards to senior members --- If a squadron commander feels that it is not appropriate to promote someone, thats fine, but they better have a darn good reason and they should explain it both to the person not being promoted and to their own superior officer, because the person being denied probably should go up the chain to complain about it. 

[mynetdude]

In regards to senior members --- If a squadron commander feels that it is not appropriate to promote someone, thats fine, but they better have a darn good reason and they should explain it both to the person not being promoted and to their own superior officer, because the person being denied probably should go up the chain to complain about it. 

As I said before, regulation does not require the promoting authority to have a reason to deny promotion.  The regulation ONLY requires a CAPF2 be issued when you are DEMOTING a member (senior member).

Also the regulation states that you cannot deny promotion based on creed, race, religion, disability and so forth but that could be hard to prove too.  Now I suppose holding/denying promotion because you don't want them to receive a higher grade than you is just childish and silly IMHO and could be discrimination to a degree IMHO which is not the case here.

There are plenty of members who are much higher grades than the commander, I'll bet if he didn't like anyone higher than his current grade he'd have to transfer them out or 2B them if that were the case... again stupidity falls within there.

[lordmonar]

So what is the problem?

You asked for promotion he said "No...because of lack of confidentiality....see me again in 90 days."

Where is the break down?

If you think he is wrong....challange it.  If not, suck it up and solder on.

[mynetdude]

So what is the problem?

You asked for promotion he said "No...because of lack of confidentiality....see me again in 90 days."

Where is the break down?

If you think he is wrong....challange it.  If not, suck it up and solder on.

How am I going to challenge it when they can hold back promotion without a reason? IG isn't going to investigate based on those facts.

You sound as if its perfectly ok to hold back promotion for lack of confidentiality.  I would not use that as a basis, I would use withholding for maturity, regulation, standards, conducts, duty performance, etc. 

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

[mikeylikey]

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

And that is what needs addressing.  This is not the AF, let the guy know why he was denied! 

If you never get a reason for personnel issues that effect your Volunteer Service (not paid) I would say "screw you guys, I'm going home"!  That is just outright disrespectful to the individual member.  We need members, and here are ways CAP looses those members.

[mynetdude]

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

And that is what needs addressing.  This is not the AF, let the guy know why he was denied! 

If you never get a reason for personnel issues that effect your Volunteer Service (not paid) I would say "screw you guys, I'm going home"!  That is just outright disrespectful to the individual member.  We need members, and here are ways CAP looses those members.

You know there has been topics (I've read one, and it wasn't that long ago) that people had the idea we should just remove AF//military rank/grades.  In a volunteer organization, we should do that.  Hell I'd be willing to keep grades in the system if A) it were automatic, meaning they'd have no real value and cannot be taken away from you and B) you earned it with TIG only and Proff Dev would not be based on your grade, it would just be based on time served regardless of your grade.

In theory I did get an answer, and that was breach of confidentiality.  Again, it wasn't in writing that is what I am trying to point out... the commander does NOT have to put in writing a reason for withholding and AFAICT (As Far As I Can Tell) from reading regulations, he doesn't have to give you any real reason for demoting you for that matter, demotions can simply be a duty performance issue and I know LOTS of members who meet this criteria so severely would I hesitate to use it? No, only as a last resort to get their attention).

Now, if I were to submit a CAPF2 and then he wishes to deny it, he COULD put a reason or choose not to so as there is no requirement according to the wording of the regulation so it is pretty difficult to disprove/dispute something really as well.  I can't promote until April 4th anyway... but thats ok if this is the kind of game they want to play I already threw in the towel... one less member he has to deal with (although I requested that I remain a paying member because I want to keep my TIG).

[Gunner C]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

The commander really isn't denying a person a promotion, they are just not recommending a person for a promotion.  I've had a long problem with people "requesting" promotion.  It should come from the immediate supervisor to the commander.  The commander either agrees or disagrees.

Mikey:  You are correct!  Rank means squat (horrible but true).  Until the force is ready to either demote those higher in rank who won't take on positions of responsibility commensurate with their rank, it won't change.  It's a shame.

GC

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

The commander really isn't denying a person a promotion, they are just not recommending a person for a promotion.  I've had a long problem with people "requesting" promotion.  It should come from the immediate supervisor to the commander.  The commander either agrees or disagrees.

Mikey:  You are correct!  Rank means squat (horrible but true).  Until the force is ready to either demote those higher in rank who won't take on positions of responsibility commensurate with their rank, it won't change.  It's a shame.

GC

Thats true, you could look at it that way... and probably a better way to look at it too.  Its still the same thing if you want to get on technical levels.

Well no point in beating the dead horse... I'm off... cya next year.