is a 90 day reprimand the same thing as a demotion?

[Eclipse]

A promotion, BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted, is a reward for duty performance and service to the squadron. The appointment is based on standards listed in CAPT 35-5 and are subject to the recommendation of the Commander of the unit and the approving authority. As stated in other posts. It is not a right!

Ribbons are reward for work done, promotions are supposed to be an expectation of increased responsibility.

[Eagle400]

BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted

Wrong context. 

Officers are appointed, not commissioned.

They do get promoted; appointment only occurs at the promotion to 2d Lt.

[FW]

Compaints, Complaints, Complaints....

When the IG gets this type of complaint, they will end up telling the individual that the commander is acting within their authority.  End of story.  Even if the IG wanted to investigate they would end up with a finding of "yes the commander held up a promotion".  Then they would say, "However, it is within the authority of the commander".

IMHO, it's a waste of time to complain about holding up promotions.  A better use of time would be for the effected member to ask the commander for an explanation and corrective course of action for the promotion to go thru.  It's always better to take the high road.

[arajca]

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

Great in theroy, but it's my job as Personnel and PD Officer to do these. Yes, when I meet the requirements, I schedule a discussion with my commander to review it with him before submitting. But I usually initaite the process. I also initate the process for the other seniors in my unit. Again, it's my job to do that.

Should I be doing my job for everyone (incld. the cc) except me?

[A.Member]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Evidently, if you ask mikeylikey they are.

In reality, however, they are not nor should they be treated as such.  A big one for me is the advanced grade issue.  Again, this is at the CC's discretion.   Just because a person is a CFI doesn't mean they are automatically awarded advanced rank to Capt.  Unfortunately, far too many view it as a right.  My squadron has stopped doing this (rubber stamping promotions).  A person must meet the minimums as stated after that, it is merit based and all new members will undergo an evaluation period before putting on any rank.  We want members that will contribute.  If they don't like our approach, they can go somewhere else - no hard feelings from our end.  

We're quite proud of our results and our membership is still growing.  We're a squadron with 30+ seniors and 30+ cadets.  We have a decidedly more military approach in our structure and style and it works very well.  As a matter of fact we're getting people from other squadrons transferring in because they've heard such good things.  It's simply something others want to be a part of.  That's the way it should be.

[mynetdude]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

[A.Member]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

Rather than play these silly games, why don't you talk to him/her about it rather than continuing to make vague posts here.  Unless you share the details (which I'm not suggesting you do), we don't know the specific circumstances around your situation.  Even if we did know the details, we may handle it differently.  If you have a concern, talk to the people that are making the decisions...and listen to what they have to say.

[Camas]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight because I have no problem causing problems.

If promotions mean nothing to you what's there to fight - and causing problems?  C'mon, grow up.

I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

And now you're going to take your ball and go home? You're passing up on a golden opportunity to step up to the plate, show some maturity and continue to participate and excel at whatever it is you do for your squadron.  You suggest you have few seniors anymore; this is a great chance to show your commander what you're really made of.  Who knows, he could drop that 90 days to something far less.

[Eagle400]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

[mynetdude]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

Rather than play these silly games, why don't you talk to him/her about it rather than continuing to make vague posts here.  Unless you share the details (which I'm not suggesting you do), we don't know the specific circumstances around your situation.  Even if we did know the details, we may handle it differently.  If you have a concern, talk to the people that are making the decisions...and listen to what they have to say.

I tried, my commander got defensive and started to yell because I misunderstood something or whatever I don't know if I misunderstood I am hard of hearing nothing is in writing and I prefer written statements IMHO. 

I really shouldn't give details, but if you really want to understand what happened go to the ES board about ES fuel reimbursement, 3rd page you'll see a post I made and had comments about the ops planning meeting...

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight because I have no problem causing problems.

If promotions mean nothing to you what's there to fight - and causing problems?  C'mon, grow up.

I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

And now you're going to take your ball and go home? You're passing up on a golden opportunity to step up to the plate, show some maturity and continue to participate and excel at whatever it is you do for your squadron.  You suggest you have few seniors anymore; this is a great chance to show your commander what you're really made of.  Who knows, he could drop that 90 days to something far less.

Really? I come to this [darn] faciltiy MORE OFTEN than most SMs care to do anything! You want me to explain to you about EACH senior member who isn't doing their job? Yet they don't get demoted?! I am grown up, this isn't about maturity this is about proving right vs wrong.

I didn't say I was innocent, and TBH if you think the commander will reduce promotion withheld time he'll laugh in your face honestly! I DO FAR MORE and I KNOW FAR MORE than most people when it comes to IT and I do my job diligently.

I respect all the adult members and cadets, just because I made an opinion about them does not make me perfect.  I don't expect them to like it or accept it my mistake and I did apologize for it.  But as far as I can tell, I can't see any regulation I have violated so I can't prove anything.

If we're talking about being held back for maturity reasons I still question that, but nobody ever ONCE mentioned or questioned my maturity when this whole fiasco was brought up on Saturday morning about my posting here on CAPTalk...

that being said I'm packing my bags on CAPTalk too...

[mynetdude]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

[mikeylikey]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

Thats how it is currently run.  You do the required activities, serve your time, and you find yourself a Lt Col.  Some make it happen quicker than others.  I would not mind that mentality going away from CAP for good!

CAP members expect to be promoted.  In fact, some even come into CAP demanding a higher rank than the person who has been in for 4 years, just because he or she is a pilot.  Not fair, Sir, not fair!

[mynetdude]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

Thats how it is currently run.  You do the required activities, serve your time, and you find yourself a Lt Col.  Some make it happen quicker than others.  I would not mind that mentality going away from CAP for good!

CAP members expect to be promoted.  In fact, some even come into CAP demanding a higher rank than the person who has been in for 4 years, just because he or she is a pilot.  Not fair, Sir, not fair!

[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more, TBH with you I would be happy getting my Captain I don't want more than that really I just want to promote a couple grades I am not all into the grade/promotion a whole bit... but the fact this happened two weeks before my promotion is just a convenience to the higher ups.

[Eagle400]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

Please calm down, mynetdude.  It was not directed at you.  For all I know, you could be one of those members who actually takes CAP rank and service the way it was meant to be.  And from what it sounds like, you do.  

Based on everything you told me, it sounds like your commander is an officer who has let rank go to his head - he is the kind of person I was directing my vent toward.  It sounds to me like you are the victim of bad leadership and a failed quality assurance system.

Is there a squadron near you with better leadership?  

[mynetdude]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

Please calm down, mynetdude.  It was not directed at you.  For all I know, you could be one of those members who actually takes CAP rank and service the way it was meant to be.  And from what it sounds like, you do.  

Based on everything you told me, it sounds like your commander is an officer who has let rank go to his head - he is the kind of person I was directing my vent toward.  It sounds to me like you are the victim of bad leadership and a failed quality assurance system.

Is there a squadron near you with better leadership?  

CCSE, sorry I blew up at you...

you know, as far as squadrons... I don't know... there is one squadron maybe... I don't know... I haven't visited other squadrons yet and right now that isn't even a possibility yet. I'll PM you...

[lordmonar]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

Now this is a little disingenuous.  If they mean nothing...why are you willing to quit over it?

Dispite what mikelikey said....promotions do mean something to the individual who put in the time and effort to do the work, training and duty time to "EARN THEM".

They mean "nothing" in the sense of pay grade, future duty prospects, assignment opportunites, or military authority.  But we are not talking about active duty military here....and bringing that argument up here does not help the situtaiton of supporting a commander who is trying to hold up the intgrity (so I assume) of the promotion process.

[mynetdude]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

Now this is a little disingenuous.  If they mean nothing...why are you willing to quit over it?

Dispite what mikelikey said....promotions do mean something to the individual who put in the time and effort to do the work, training and duty time to "EARN THEM".

They mean "nothing" in the sense of pay grade, future duty prospects, assignment opportunites, or military authority.  But we are not talking about active duty military here....and bringing that argument up here does not help the situtaiton of supporting a commander who is trying to hold up the intgrity (so I assume) of the promotion process.

I'm not quitting over the fact my promotion was held back itself, I am quitting over the silly politics and games being played here at the squadron and the chosen ignorance of my commander.  Furthermore, I am quitting because I cannot prove that my promotion withholding was unjustified as there is no such regulation concerning breach of confidentiality unless it is part of OPSEC which I don't remember if it was (I highly doubt it).

[lordmonar]

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

What?

If a person is not ready for promotion...you tell them what they are lacking, and what needs to be done to meet your expectations.  Then give them a reasonable time frame to meet that goal.

"you are imature" is useless as feed back!

How about "you are irresponsible, you say you are going to do something but fail to follow through.....I need to see you doing your job and getting it done with out having to be reminded of it every other day.  If you can show me that you do this over the next three months, I will be more than happy to endorese your promotion".

[lordmonar]

I'm not quitting over the fact my promotion was held back itself, I am quitting over the silly politics and games being played here at the squadron and the chosen ignorance of my commander.  Furthermore, I am quitting because I cannot prove that my promotion withholding was unjustified as there is no such regulation concerning breach of confidentiality unless it is part of OPSEC which I don't remember if it was (I highly doubt it).

Well...All I can say is that if your commander told you why he was not promoting you....a breach of confidentiality...then what a real leader would do is to improve your ability to keep information confidential.   As I said in the other thread...discretion is a mark of maturity.  There does not have to be a letter and rule for all of the qualities we are looking for in a leader.   Not knowing the specifics I can't say anthing more one way or the other.  However you always have the right to take it up the chain of command and/or make an IG complaint.  Either your commander had grounds to hold your promotion or he did not.  If you are confidant in yourself that you did no wrong....then by all means fight it.