is a 90 day reprimand the same thing as a demotion?

[mynetdude]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time, however regulation does say you CAN demote a member for duty performance and unbecoming of conduct << which I'd like to know what that would be exactly.  To demote you must complete a CAPF2 and have promoting/demoting authority approve and forward to NHQ for validation according to CAPR 35-5.

Thats all it says, so I can't seem to find any regulations that explain any other disciplinary actions allowable/disallowed.

[Short Field]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time,

CAPR 35-5 lists all eligibility requirements for promotion.  Eligibility requirements vary depending on the type of promotion (initial, duty performance, special promotions, etc).  In all cases, the promotion requires the recommendation of the unit commander.

Withholding a promotion for a period of time, be it one day or forever, is simply a matter of the unit commander withholding his recommendation.   

Good leadership would imply the unit commander makes known to the individual why the promotion recommendation was not forthcoming, but does not seem to be required by CAPR 35-5.   Without justification, the unit commander may be subject to a IG complaint.  But nothing requires the unit commander to provide a promotion recommendation.

[mynetdude]

I did a little research on the CAP knowledgebase I found more references to demotions, temporary demotions and withholding promotions.  These references refer to cadets, no mention of senior members.

So my question would be could a senior member be held back for promotion? I know they can be demoted, as I explained above but demotion is basically going one grade lower than the current grade currently.

Suspensions are another story though, a suspension can only be in place for 60 days by the wing commander and lower echelons, higher echelons can provide for a more lengthly suspension approval if necessary which is not the case.

[mynetdude]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time,

CAPR 35-5 lists all eligibility requirements for promotion.  Eligibility requirements vary depending on the type of promotion (initial, duty performance, special promotions, etc).  In all cases, the promotion requires the recommendation of the unit commander.

Withholding a promotion for a period of time, be it one day or forever, is simply a matter of the unit commander withholding his recommendation.   

Good leadership would imply the unit commander makes known to the individual why the promotion recommendation was not forthcoming, but does not seem to be required by CAPR 35-5.   Without justification, the unit commander may be subject to a IG complaint.  But nothing requires the unit commander to provide a promotion recommendation.

True a commander can simply deny the promotion, however I believe they need cause, am I correct? I know what 35-5 says... I read it myself.  Demotions are permitted and a CAPF2 must be submitted to NHQ however it doesn't say that the demoting authority is required to enter justification for it although that would be common sense.

[lordmonar]

As a commander I most certainly hold off on a promotion.

That is one of my primary jobs.  Bottom line is that if you are not ready for promotion....you are not ready for promotion.

CAPR 35-5 Para 11.a.5)

Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

If I don't feel you meet this requirement then you don't get promoted.  

Granted if you submitted a CAPF2 and I stop it....a good leader will give you some specific feed back of where you are lacking and what is expected of you to meet the minimum requirement.

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

I have many a times held back a cadet...did the CAPF50 and made them wait a while until they improved.

Of course...if you feel that you are being treated unfairly or not getting good feedback of what you are lacking and how to fix it....you can always go up the chain for redress.

[mynetdude]

As a commander I most certainly hold off on a promotion.

That is one of my primary jobs.  Bottom line is that if you are not ready for promotion....you are not ready for promotion.

CAPR 35-5 Para 11.a.5)

Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

If I don't feel you meet this requirement then you don't get promoted. 

Granted if you submitted a CAPF2 and I stop it....a good leader will give you some specific feed back of where you are lacking and what is expected of you to meet the minimum requirement.

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

I have many a times held back a cadet...did the CAPF50 and made them wait a while until they improved.

Of course...if you feel that you are being treated unfairly or not getting good feedback of what you are lacking and how to fix it....you can always go up the chain for redress.

90 days isn't the issue, and while I understand this is probably more common with cadets than SMs.  Isn't this supposed to be in writing?  I suppose it can't be done in writing until a F2 is submitted and it is stopped in its track.

[PA Guy]

A senior member must meet the eligibility requirements for promotion and then be recommended and approved for promotion.  If you aren't recommended and approved you don't get promoted.  If that happens some sort of explanation and corrective action plan should be forthcoming.  A demotion is a reduction in grade and is not the same as a reprimand. Simply meeting the eligibility requirements for promotion doesn't mean that you will get promoted.

[FW]

A senior member must meet the eligibility requirements for promotion and then be recommended and approved for promotion.  If you aren't recommended and approved you don't get promoted.  If that happens some sort of explanation and corrective action plan should be forthcoming.  A demotion is a reduction in grade and is not the same as a reprimand. Simply meeting the eligibility requirements for promotion doesn't mean that you will get promoted.

This is true.  Promotions are held up all the time.  Some wings have specific policies for promotion.  Some commanders have their own standards.  And each commander should promote only when the individual is deemed ready.  No explanation is needed however, it would be the proper thing to do.  There is no problem for a commander to withhold a promotion as a disciplinary measure.  It is not even considered an "adverse action".  Of course, if it is withheld for this reason, the individual should know about it.

BTW, promotions are the prerogative of the commander authorized to grant them.  There is no appeal process for denying promotions and the IG will not investigate them unless there is a discriminatory component (race, creed, etc.) to the denial.

[Eclipse]

Yes, a unit CC has 100% latitude with promotions.

2) Reaching midnight on the day you believe you are "due" for promotion and not being bumped up does not constitute "denial"

3) explanation of denial of promotion from higher HQ is required, but not at the unit level.  Though it is not uncommon for members to self-submit a Form 2 to their CC, that's not really how its supposed to work.  It's supposed to be the unit CC or Personnel, CDS, etc., recommending a member for promotion.

Common courtesy would indicate that if things go too far past your 3rd trimester, an explanation and remediation plan is in order, but none is required.  Not providing it, however, means the unit CC places his members' support in jeopardy.

One caution, if you have personal expectations of performance but have not made those clear, it is not fair to hold people back.  Likewise, if you change the rules midstream and decide to raise the bar on performance for promotions, yo have to make hard, public choices about who will pass "go" and who will not, because there's almost always someone who has been riding the minimums and will expect promotion the same as the high-speed guys.

[Eagle400]

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

And is not supposed to be common, either.

If it is, then there is something wrong with the cadet program at a squadron.

[A.Member]

Not only is the promotion at the CC's discretion but, quite frankly, I don't think enough promotions are "held up".  There is no entitlement to promotion.  A member must demonstrate that they've earned the promotion.

[Grumpy]

Yes, a unit CC has 100% latitude with promotions.

2) Reaching midnight on the day you believe you are "due" for promotion and not being bumped up does not constitute "denial"

3) explanation of denial of promotion from higher HQ is required, but not at the unit level.  Though it is not uncommon for members to self-submit a Form 2 to their CC, that's not really how its supposed to work.  It's supposed to be the unit CC or Personnel, CDS, etc., recommending a member for promotion.
Common courtesy would indicate that if things go too far past your 3rd trimester, an explanation and remediation plan is in order, but none is required.  Not providing it, however, means the unit CC places his members' support in jeopardy.

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

[mikeylikey]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

[mynetdude]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

[Sleepwalker]

As a Squadron Commander, I have withheld promotion to C/2Lt because I strongly felt the Cadet was not ready for the step up to the new responsibility.  I had given advice to these Cadets as they were moving up that they needed to improve (how and where) and most of them step up, but some do not do so as quickly.  Why do I do this?  Our Squadron was advised after an Audit (before my promotion to SquadCom) that they were 'concerned' that we were promoting Cadets who had earned the rank, but were not 'mature' enough for C/Officer position.  And I totally agree.  The result?  We make more Cadet Officers than any other Squadron - and they are all capable.  All of the Cadets I have had to hold back made their rank within a month or two.  Raise the bar!  They will reach it.

  Just my observations

P.S.> We made three Spaatz in the past three years, with another testing next month, so we must be doing something right!

[mikeylikey]

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

[mikeylikey]

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, really.

I have seen members get the IG involved for far less than a promotion issue.  If your SQD CC can't give you a legitimate reason for holding promotion, you jump the Chain of Command and appeal to their boss.  CAP is not the military, we are all volunteers and should be treated equally and fairly, and when you are not, then you are allowed to express yourself to a "higher power".  CAP is in such desperate need of members, I bet your Group Commander would call your SQD CC and say "promote".

[Ned]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

[Cecil DP]

A promotion, BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted, is a reward for duty performance and service to the squadron. The appointment is based on standards listed in CAPT 35-5 and are subject to the recommendation of the Commander of the unit and the approving authority. As stated in other posts. It is not a right!

I would caution you to write out a counseling statement for the individual who is denied promotion or appointment detailing why he/she is not being considered at this time and what must be done to be promoted with a time table to accomplish the criteria. This will not only put both the commander and the member on the same track, but also cover his A** when/if there is a complaint to the next higher HQ or the IG.

[Eclipse]

A promotion, BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted, is a reward for duty performance and service to the squadron. The appointment is based on standards listed in CAPT 35-5 and are subject to the recommendation of the Commander of the unit and the approving authority. As stated in other posts. It is not a right!

Ribbons are reward for work done, promotions are supposed to be an expectation of increased responsibility.

[Eagle400]

BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted

Wrong context. 

Officers are appointed, not commissioned.

They do get promoted; appointment only occurs at the promotion to 2d Lt.

[FW]

Compaints, Complaints, Complaints....

When the IG gets this type of complaint, they will end up telling the individual that the commander is acting within their authority.  End of story.  Even if the IG wanted to investigate they would end up with a finding of "yes the commander held up a promotion".  Then they would say, "However, it is within the authority of the commander".

IMHO, it's a waste of time to complain about holding up promotions.  A better use of time would be for the effected member to ask the commander for an explanation and corrective course of action for the promotion to go thru.  It's always better to take the high road.

[arajca]

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

Great in theroy, but it's my job as Personnel and PD Officer to do these. Yes, when I meet the requirements, I schedule a discussion with my commander to review it with him before submitting. But I usually initaite the process. I also initate the process for the other seniors in my unit. Again, it's my job to do that.

Should I be doing my job for everyone (incld. the cc) except me?

[A.Member]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Evidently, if you ask mikeylikey they are.

In reality, however, they are not nor should they be treated as such.  A big one for me is the advanced grade issue.  Again, this is at the CC's discretion.   Just because a person is a CFI doesn't mean they are automatically awarded advanced rank to Capt.  Unfortunately, far too many view it as a right.  My squadron has stopped doing this (rubber stamping promotions).  A person must meet the minimums as stated after that, it is merit based and all new members will undergo an evaluation period before putting on any rank.  We want members that will contribute.  If they don't like our approach, they can go somewhere else - no hard feelings from our end.  

We're quite proud of our results and our membership is still growing.  We're a squadron with 30+ seniors and 30+ cadets.  We have a decidedly more military approach in our structure and style and it works very well.  As a matter of fact we're getting people from other squadrons transferring in because they've heard such good things.  It's simply something others want to be a part of.  That's the way it should be.

[mynetdude]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

[A.Member]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

Rather than play these silly games, why don't you talk to him/her about it rather than continuing to make vague posts here.  Unless you share the details (which I'm not suggesting you do), we don't know the specific circumstances around your situation.  Even if we did know the details, we may handle it differently.  If you have a concern, talk to the people that are making the decisions...and listen to what they have to say.

[Camas]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight because I have no problem causing problems.

If promotions mean nothing to you what's there to fight - and causing problems?  C'mon, grow up.

I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

And now you're going to take your ball and go home? You're passing up on a golden opportunity to step up to the plate, show some maturity and continue to participate and excel at whatever it is you do for your squadron.  You suggest you have few seniors anymore; this is a great chance to show your commander what you're really made of.  Who knows, he could drop that 90 days to something far less.

[Eagle400]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

[mynetdude]

I'm not suggesting I complain to IG... the commander is within his scope... no question there.  The only question is, is the reason even valid? Breach of confidentiality? I have never heard of such regulation or violation other than OPSEC breaches maybe... but wouldn't it be silly to deny promotion for a regulation that doesn't even exist?

Rather than play these silly games, why don't you talk to him/her about it rather than continuing to make vague posts here.  Unless you share the details (which I'm not suggesting you do), we don't know the specific circumstances around your situation.  Even if we did know the details, we may handle it differently.  If you have a concern, talk to the people that are making the decisions...and listen to what they have to say.

I tried, my commander got defensive and started to yell because I misunderstood something or whatever I don't know if I misunderstood I am hard of hearing nothing is in writing and I prefer written statements IMHO. 

I really shouldn't give details, but if you really want to understand what happened go to the ES board about ES fuel reimbursement, 3rd page you'll see a post I made and had comments about the ops planning meeting...

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight because I have no problem causing problems.

If promotions mean nothing to you what's there to fight - and causing problems?  C'mon, grow up.

I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

And now you're going to take your ball and go home? You're passing up on a golden opportunity to step up to the plate, show some maturity and continue to participate and excel at whatever it is you do for your squadron.  You suggest you have few seniors anymore; this is a great chance to show your commander what you're really made of.  Who knows, he could drop that 90 days to something far less.

Really? I come to this [darn] faciltiy MORE OFTEN than most SMs care to do anything! You want me to explain to you about EACH senior member who isn't doing their job? Yet they don't get demoted?! I am grown up, this isn't about maturity this is about proving right vs wrong.

I didn't say I was innocent, and TBH if you think the commander will reduce promotion withheld time he'll laugh in your face honestly! I DO FAR MORE and I KNOW FAR MORE than most people when it comes to IT and I do my job diligently.

I respect all the adult members and cadets, just because I made an opinion about them does not make me perfect.  I don't expect them to like it or accept it my mistake and I did apologize for it.  But as far as I can tell, I can't see any regulation I have violated so I can't prove anything.

If we're talking about being held back for maturity reasons I still question that, but nobody ever ONCE mentioned or questioned my maturity when this whole fiasco was brought up on Saturday morning about my posting here on CAPTalk...

that being said I'm packing my bags on CAPTalk too...

[mynetdude]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

[mikeylikey]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

Thats how it is currently run.  You do the required activities, serve your time, and you find yourself a Lt Col.  Some make it happen quicker than others.  I would not mind that mentality going away from CAP for good!

CAP members expect to be promoted.  In fact, some even come into CAP demanding a higher rank than the person who has been in for 4 years, just because he or she is a pilot.  Not fair, Sir, not fair!

[mynetdude]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

Thats how it is currently run.  You do the required activities, serve your time, and you find yourself a Lt Col.  Some make it happen quicker than others.  I would not mind that mentality going away from CAP for good!

CAP members expect to be promoted.  In fact, some even come into CAP demanding a higher rank than the person who has been in for 4 years, just because he or she is a pilot.  Not fair, Sir, not fair!

[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more, TBH with you I would be happy getting my Captain I don't want more than that really I just want to promote a couple grades I am not all into the grade/promotion a whole bit... but the fact this happened two weeks before my promotion is just a convenience to the higher ups.

[Eagle400]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

Please calm down, mynetdude.  It was not directed at you.  For all I know, you could be one of those members who actually takes CAP rank and service the way it was meant to be.  And from what it sounds like, you do.  

Based on everything you told me, it sounds like your commander is an officer who has let rank go to his head - he is the kind of person I was directing my vent toward.  It sounds to me like you are the victim of bad leadership and a failed quality assurance system.

Is there a squadron near you with better leadership?  

[mynetdude]

There are way too many people in CAP who view rank as a right.  That goes for both cadets and seniors.  Rank is not a right; rank is a privilige. 

Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they have the right to be exempt from discipline and considered a "favored child."  I can name 3 rights that CAP members have, and that's it. 

I'm not saying CAP should be hard on its members, but the reality of CAP service needs to be put in check.  And that reality is, CAP service is not military service.  Same with rank and everything else it shares in common with the Air Force.

Until members get rid of the "I'm just a volunteer" argument and take CAP rank/service/etc. for what it is, the problems plaguing the organization will never go away.

Again, out of context.  I NEVER said it was a right...  but c'mon think about it... do you want to be demoted or held back for promotion for regulation that doesn't EVEN exist?!  Read my above posts, I think they want to hold back my promotion for maturity... if that is the case that is acceptable and I would accept that however I'd still question that.

This whole thing isn't ABOUT my maturity, it never was... you know I can do a lot worse by insulting and slandering people... now that's mature... NOT!

Please calm down, mynetdude.  It was not directed at you.  For all I know, you could be one of those members who actually takes CAP rank and service the way it was meant to be.  And from what it sounds like, you do.  

Based on everything you told me, it sounds like your commander is an officer who has let rank go to his head - he is the kind of person I was directing my vent toward.  It sounds to me like you are the victim of bad leadership and a failed quality assurance system.

Is there a squadron near you with better leadership?  

CCSE, sorry I blew up at you...

you know, as far as squadrons... I don't know... there is one squadron maybe... I don't know... I haven't visited other squadrons yet and right now that isn't even a possibility yet. I'll PM you...

[lordmonar]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

Now this is a little disingenuous.  If they mean nothing...why are you willing to quit over it?

Dispite what mikelikey said....promotions do mean something to the individual who put in the time and effort to do the work, training and duty time to "EARN THEM".

They mean "nothing" in the sense of pay grade, future duty prospects, assignment opportunites, or military authority.  But we are not talking about active duty military here....and bringing that argument up here does not help the situtaiton of supporting a commander who is trying to hold up the intgrity (so I assume) of the promotion process.

[mynetdude]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

Now this is a little disingenuous.  If they mean nothing...why are you willing to quit over it?

Dispite what mikelikey said....promotions do mean something to the individual who put in the time and effort to do the work, training and duty time to "EARN THEM".

They mean "nothing" in the sense of pay grade, future duty prospects, assignment opportunites, or military authority.  But we are not talking about active duty military here....and bringing that argument up here does not help the situtaiton of supporting a commander who is trying to hold up the intgrity (so I assume) of the promotion process.

I'm not quitting over the fact my promotion was held back itself, I am quitting over the silly politics and games being played here at the squadron and the chosen ignorance of my commander.  Furthermore, I am quitting because I cannot prove that my promotion withholding was unjustified as there is no such regulation concerning breach of confidentiality unless it is part of OPSEC which I don't remember if it was (I highly doubt it).

[lordmonar]

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

What?

If a person is not ready for promotion...you tell them what they are lacking, and what needs to be done to meet your expectations.  Then give them a reasonable time frame to meet that goal.

"you are imature" is useless as feed back!

How about "you are irresponsible, you say you are going to do something but fail to follow through.....I need to see you doing your job and getting it done with out having to be reminded of it every other day.  If you can show me that you do this over the next three months, I will be more than happy to endorese your promotion".

[lordmonar]

I'm not quitting over the fact my promotion was held back itself, I am quitting over the silly politics and games being played here at the squadron and the chosen ignorance of my commander.  Furthermore, I am quitting because I cannot prove that my promotion withholding was unjustified as there is no such regulation concerning breach of confidentiality unless it is part of OPSEC which I don't remember if it was (I highly doubt it).

Well...All I can say is that if your commander told you why he was not promoting you....a breach of confidentiality...then what a real leader would do is to improve your ability to keep information confidential.   As I said in the other thread...discretion is a mark of maturity.  There does not have to be a letter and rule for all of the qualities we are looking for in a leader.   Not knowing the specifics I can't say anthing more one way or the other.  However you always have the right to take it up the chain of command and/or make an IG complaint.  Either your commander had grounds to hold your promotion or he did not.  If you are confidant in yourself that you did no wrong....then by all means fight it.

[CAP_truth]

I have been in this organization on and off for over 28 years and I have seen many commanders not promoting members just because they do not wish that person to holder a higher grade than they have. The promotion system in CAP needs to be redone. We should use the SUI guide as a job performance gauge to see if members are performing up to standards. If the member meets all other requirements and gets a outstanding grade they should be promoted. If they get and exceed level for X evaluations the should be considered should promote. If they meet standards they for X evaluations they should be eligible for promotion. Evaluations should be 1 for 2nd Lt., 1 for 1st. Lt., 2 for Capt, 3 for Maj., 4 for Lt. Col. Some one please tell me per CAPR 35-5 what is Section B: 11;A;5) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. When I was squadron commander I used the SUI as my guide lines. This is my view.

[Grumpy]

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

Great in theroy, but it's my job as Personnel and PD Officer to do these. Yes, when I meet the requirements, I schedule a discussion with my commander to review it with him before submitting. But I usually initiate the process. I also imitate the process for the other seniors in my unit. Again, it's my job to do that.

Should I be doing my job for everyone (incld. the cc) except me?

The Squadron/CC is on the Group/CC's staff.  If you don't have a Group then it would be the Wing Staff.  Therefore, your CC's promotions come from higher headquarters.  Since you answer directly to the squadron CC they would put you in for promotion.

[RiverAux]

In regards to senior members --- If a squadron commander feels that it is not appropriate to promote someone, thats fine, but they better have a darn good reason and they should explain it both to the person not being promoted and to their own superior officer, because the person being denied probably should go up the chain to complain about it. 

[mynetdude]

In regards to senior members --- If a squadron commander feels that it is not appropriate to promote someone, thats fine, but they better have a darn good reason and they should explain it both to the person not being promoted and to their own superior officer, because the person being denied probably should go up the chain to complain about it. 

As I said before, regulation does not require the promoting authority to have a reason to deny promotion.  The regulation ONLY requires a CAPF2 be issued when you are DEMOTING a member (senior member).

Also the regulation states that you cannot deny promotion based on creed, race, religion, disability and so forth but that could be hard to prove too.  Now I suppose holding/denying promotion because you don't want them to receive a higher grade than you is just childish and silly IMHO and could be discrimination to a degree IMHO which is not the case here.

There are plenty of members who are much higher grades than the commander, I'll bet if he didn't like anyone higher than his current grade he'd have to transfer them out or 2B them if that were the case... again stupidity falls within there.

[lordmonar]

So what is the problem?

You asked for promotion he said "No...because of lack of confidentiality....see me again in 90 days."

Where is the break down?

If you think he is wrong....challange it.  If not, suck it up and solder on.

[mynetdude]

So what is the problem?

You asked for promotion he said "No...because of lack of confidentiality....see me again in 90 days."

Where is the break down?

If you think he is wrong....challange it.  If not, suck it up and solder on.

How am I going to challenge it when they can hold back promotion without a reason? IG isn't going to investigate based on those facts.

You sound as if its perfectly ok to hold back promotion for lack of confidentiality.  I would not use that as a basis, I would use withholding for maturity, regulation, standards, conducts, duty performance, etc. 

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

[mikeylikey]

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

And that is what needs addressing.  This is not the AF, let the guy know why he was denied! 

If you never get a reason for personnel issues that effect your Volunteer Service (not paid) I would say "screw you guys, I'm going home"!  That is just outright disrespectful to the individual member.  We need members, and here are ways CAP looses those members.

[mynetdude]

but then again, regulation doesn't stipulate that you even have to have a reason...

And that is what needs addressing.  This is not the AF, let the guy know why he was denied! 

If you never get a reason for personnel issues that effect your Volunteer Service (not paid) I would say "screw you guys, I'm going home"!  That is just outright disrespectful to the individual member.  We need members, and here are ways CAP looses those members.

You know there has been topics (I've read one, and it wasn't that long ago) that people had the idea we should just remove AF//military rank/grades.  In a volunteer organization, we should do that.  Hell I'd be willing to keep grades in the system if A) it were automatic, meaning they'd have no real value and cannot be taken away from you and B) you earned it with TIG only and Proff Dev would not be based on your grade, it would just be based on time served regardless of your grade.

In theory I did get an answer, and that was breach of confidentiality.  Again, it wasn't in writing that is what I am trying to point out... the commander does NOT have to put in writing a reason for withholding and AFAICT (As Far As I Can Tell) from reading regulations, he doesn't have to give you any real reason for demoting you for that matter, demotions can simply be a duty performance issue and I know LOTS of members who meet this criteria so severely would I hesitate to use it? No, only as a last resort to get their attention).

Now, if I were to submit a CAPF2 and then he wishes to deny it, he COULD put a reason or choose not to so as there is no requirement according to the wording of the regulation so it is pretty difficult to disprove/dispute something really as well.  I can't promote until April 4th anyway... but thats ok if this is the kind of game they want to play I already threw in the towel... one less member he has to deal with (although I requested that I remain a paying member because I want to keep my TIG).

[Gunner C]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

The commander really isn't denying a person a promotion, they are just not recommending a person for a promotion.  I've had a long problem with people "requesting" promotion.  It should come from the immediate supervisor to the commander.  The commander either agrees or disagrees.

Mikey:  You are correct!  Rank means squat (horrible but true).  Until the force is ready to either demote those higher in rank who won't take on positions of responsibility commensurate with their rank, it won't change.  It's a shame.

GC

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

The commander really isn't denying a person a promotion, they are just not recommending a person for a promotion.  I've had a long problem with people "requesting" promotion.  It should come from the immediate supervisor to the commander.  The commander either agrees or disagrees.

Mikey:  You are correct!  Rank means squat (horrible but true).  Until the force is ready to either demote those higher in rank who won't take on positions of responsibility commensurate with their rank, it won't change.  It's a shame.

GC

Thats true, you could look at it that way... and probably a better way to look at it too.  Its still the same thing if you want to get on technical levels.

Well no point in beating the dead horse... I'm off... cya next year.