is a 90 day reprimand the same thing as a demotion?

[mynetdude]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time, however regulation does say you CAN demote a member for duty performance and unbecoming of conduct << which I'd like to know what that would be exactly.  To demote you must complete a CAPF2 and have promoting/demoting authority approve and forward to NHQ for validation according to CAPR 35-5.

Thats all it says, so I can't seem to find any regulations that explain any other disciplinary actions allowable/disallowed.

[Short Field]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time,

CAPR 35-5 lists all eligibility requirements for promotion.  Eligibility requirements vary depending on the type of promotion (initial, duty performance, special promotions, etc).  In all cases, the promotion requires the recommendation of the unit commander.

Withholding a promotion for a period of time, be it one day or forever, is simply a matter of the unit commander withholding his recommendation.   

Good leadership would imply the unit commander makes known to the individual why the promotion recommendation was not forthcoming, but does not seem to be required by CAPR 35-5.   Without justification, the unit commander may be subject to a IG complaint.  But nothing requires the unit commander to provide a promotion recommendation.

[mynetdude]

I did a little research on the CAP knowledgebase I found more references to demotions, temporary demotions and withholding promotions.  These references refer to cadets, no mention of senior members.

So my question would be could a senior member be held back for promotion? I know they can be demoted, as I explained above but demotion is basically going one grade lower than the current grade currently.

Suspensions are another story though, a suspension can only be in place for 60 days by the wing commander and lower echelons, higher echelons can provide for a more lengthly suspension approval if necessary which is not the case.

[mynetdude]

I can't find any regulation that says you can withhold promotion for a period of time,

CAPR 35-5 lists all eligibility requirements for promotion.  Eligibility requirements vary depending on the type of promotion (initial, duty performance, special promotions, etc).  In all cases, the promotion requires the recommendation of the unit commander.

Withholding a promotion for a period of time, be it one day or forever, is simply a matter of the unit commander withholding his recommendation.   

Good leadership would imply the unit commander makes known to the individual why the promotion recommendation was not forthcoming, but does not seem to be required by CAPR 35-5.   Without justification, the unit commander may be subject to a IG complaint.  But nothing requires the unit commander to provide a promotion recommendation.

True a commander can simply deny the promotion, however I believe they need cause, am I correct? I know what 35-5 says... I read it myself.  Demotions are permitted and a CAPF2 must be submitted to NHQ however it doesn't say that the demoting authority is required to enter justification for it although that would be common sense.

[lordmonar]

As a commander I most certainly hold off on a promotion.

That is one of my primary jobs.  Bottom line is that if you are not ready for promotion....you are not ready for promotion.

CAPR 35-5 Para 11.a.5)

Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

If I don't feel you meet this requirement then you don't get promoted.  

Granted if you submitted a CAPF2 and I stop it....a good leader will give you some specific feed back of where you are lacking and what is expected of you to meet the minimum requirement.

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

I have many a times held back a cadet...did the CAPF50 and made them wait a while until they improved.

Of course...if you feel that you are being treated unfairly or not getting good feedback of what you are lacking and how to fix it....you can always go up the chain for redress.

[mynetdude]

As a commander I most certainly hold off on a promotion.

That is one of my primary jobs.  Bottom line is that if you are not ready for promotion....you are not ready for promotion.

CAPR 35-5 Para 11.a.5)

Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

If I don't feel you meet this requirement then you don't get promoted. 

Granted if you submitted a CAPF2 and I stop it....a good leader will give you some specific feed back of where you are lacking and what is expected of you to meet the minimum requirement.

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

I have many a times held back a cadet...did the CAPF50 and made them wait a while until they improved.

Of course...if you feel that you are being treated unfairly or not getting good feedback of what you are lacking and how to fix it....you can always go up the chain for redress.

90 days isn't the issue, and while I understand this is probably more common with cadets than SMs.  Isn't this supposed to be in writing?  I suppose it can't be done in writing until a F2 is submitted and it is stopped in its track.

[PA Guy]

A senior member must meet the eligibility requirements for promotion and then be recommended and approved for promotion.  If you aren't recommended and approved you don't get promoted.  If that happens some sort of explanation and corrective action plan should be forthcoming.  A demotion is a reduction in grade and is not the same as a reprimand. Simply meeting the eligibility requirements for promotion doesn't mean that you will get promoted.

[FW]

A senior member must meet the eligibility requirements for promotion and then be recommended and approved for promotion.  If you aren't recommended and approved you don't get promoted.  If that happens some sort of explanation and corrective action plan should be forthcoming.  A demotion is a reduction in grade and is not the same as a reprimand. Simply meeting the eligibility requirements for promotion doesn't mean that you will get promoted.

This is true.  Promotions are held up all the time.  Some wings have specific policies for promotion.  Some commanders have their own standards.  And each commander should promote only when the individual is deemed ready.  No explanation is needed however, it would be the proper thing to do.  There is no problem for a commander to withhold a promotion as a disciplinary measure.  It is not even considered an "adverse action".  Of course, if it is withheld for this reason, the individual should know about it.

BTW, promotions are the prerogative of the commander authorized to grant them.  There is no appeal process for denying promotions and the IG will not investigate them unless there is a discriminatory component (race, creed, etc.) to the denial.

[Eclipse]

Yes, a unit CC has 100% latitude with promotions.

2) Reaching midnight on the day you believe you are "due" for promotion and not being bumped up does not constitute "denial"

3) explanation of denial of promotion from higher HQ is required, but not at the unit level.  Though it is not uncommon for members to self-submit a Form 2 to their CC, that's not really how its supposed to work.  It's supposed to be the unit CC or Personnel, CDS, etc., recommending a member for promotion.

Common courtesy would indicate that if things go too far past your 3rd trimester, an explanation and remediation plan is in order, but none is required.  Not providing it, however, means the unit CC places his members' support in jeopardy.

One caution, if you have personal expectations of performance but have not made those clear, it is not fair to hold people back.  Likewise, if you change the rules midstream and decide to raise the bar on performance for promotions, yo have to make hard, public choices about who will pass "go" and who will not, because there's almost always someone who has been riding the minimums and will expect promotion the same as the high-speed guys.

[Eagle400]

So a 90 day hold is not too outrageous.

And is not supposed to be common, either.

If it is, then there is something wrong with the cadet program at a squadron.

[A.Member]

Not only is the promotion at the CC's discretion but, quite frankly, I don't think enough promotions are "held up".  There is no entitlement to promotion.  A member must demonstrate that they've earned the promotion.

[Grumpy]

Yes, a unit CC has 100% latitude with promotions.

2) Reaching midnight on the day you believe you are "due" for promotion and not being bumped up does not constitute "denial"

3) explanation of denial of promotion from higher HQ is required, but not at the unit level.  Though it is not uncommon for members to self-submit a Form 2 to their CC, that's not really how its supposed to work.  It's supposed to be the unit CC or Personnel, CDS, etc., recommending a member for promotion.
Common courtesy would indicate that if things go too far past your 3rd trimester, an explanation and remediation plan is in order, but none is required.  Not providing it, however, means the unit CC places his members' support in jeopardy.

Amen.  It should be the supervisors responsibility to submit deserving personnel for promotions and awards.  A good supervisor will see that his/her subordinates get recognition for a job well done.  Just because you have TIG/TIS doesn't mean you deserve the promotion and the responsibility that comes with it.

It frosts my mind (what little I have left) to see people putting themselves in for awards and promotions. They have to break theire arm patting themselves on the back.  CAP makes them do it though because, unless the have quality people over them in the chain, they won't get that recognition.

[mikeylikey]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

[mynetdude]

I have to put out there that CAP rank and promotions mean nothing.  When the senior ranking person at the SQD is actually the person in charge maybe we can have this discussion come back up. 

To hold up promotions of a Senior Member because "not deserving enough", I have to ask, what the hell makes the person deserving.  Since many here have said in other threads that CAP rank means nothing, why deny a promotion to begin with?  Since a CAP Major is no different than a CAP Captain, what is the point.

Am I just missing it, or has there been a huge shift in thinking here at CAPTALK?  What is all this stemming from anyway?  If you are denied a promotion, there are routes to fight it, but I would imagine there was a rather good reason to be denied.  Trust me when I say, if a SQD CC decides to not promote someone, he or she should have [darn] good reasons, and if they are not, I will be the first to fight to get that person fired.  So who wants to let me in on the big secret here, which persons Commander needs fired, because I have no problem causing problems!

Well I can think of lots of reasons not to promote LEGALLY anyway, disciplinary action, maturity, duty performance (all within the regulations really) Time In Grade (that'd be the biggie, but most Senior members typically fly through that no problem).

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, realy.

[mynetdude]

BTW... like you said mikey, promotion means SQUAT! I informed my squadron I would no longer be attending... let them take that bite, there are not that many SMs in our squadron I'm going to let them have a lot of fun with that.

[Sleepwalker]

As a Squadron Commander, I have withheld promotion to C/2Lt because I strongly felt the Cadet was not ready for the step up to the new responsibility.  I had given advice to these Cadets as they were moving up that they needed to improve (how and where) and most of them step up, but some do not do so as quickly.  Why do I do this?  Our Squadron was advised after an Audit (before my promotion to SquadCom) that they were 'concerned' that we were promoting Cadets who had earned the rank, but were not 'mature' enough for C/Officer position.  And I totally agree.  The result?  We make more Cadet Officers than any other Squadron - and they are all capable.  All of the Cadets I have had to hold back made their rank within a month or two.  Raise the bar!  They will reach it.

  Just my observations

P.S.> We made three Spaatz in the past three years, with another testing next month, so we must be doing something right!

[mikeylikey]

^ You are one of the good SQD CC's, however there are those out there that hold up Cadet Promotions for entirely different reasons (like their son or daughter wanted to make the Mitchell first before their friends).  I have seen it happen. 

I am not for holding up Cadet promotions unless they break the rules of the game.  Maturity is something that is not learned overnight, and saying "Cadet you will be promoted in two months when you mature more" rarely has any effect on the kid.  When NHQ comes out and says "these are the maturity characteristics that go along with achievement such and such", then we can make the maturity call. 

Sure, I know when a person is immature, but since I don't live with them, the only thing I can really do is say "you are immature".

[mikeylikey]

Mikey, how you gonna fight it? It isn't even required of the commander to have it in writing! He can just simply deny the promotion, really.

I have seen members get the IG involved for far less than a promotion issue.  If your SQD CC can't give you a legitimate reason for holding promotion, you jump the Chain of Command and appeal to their boss.  CAP is not the military, we are all volunteers and should be treated equally and fairly, and when you are not, then you are allowed to express yourself to a "higher power".  CAP is in such desperate need of members, I bet your Group Commander would call your SQD CC and say "promote".

[Ned]

So, is promotion for senior members an "entitlement"?

Absent a specific disciplinary problem, should every senior wind up as a Lt Col?

(Assuming the minimal requirements for training and TiG are met.)

[Cecil DP]

A promotion, BTW Officers are appointed, not promoted, is a reward for duty performance and service to the squadron. The appointment is based on standards listed in CAPT 35-5 and are subject to the recommendation of the Commander of the unit and the approving authority. As stated in other posts. It is not a right!

I would caution you to write out a counseling statement for the individual who is denied promotion or appointment detailing why he/she is not being considered at this time and what must be done to be promoted with a time table to accomplish the criteria. This will not only put both the commander and the member on the same track, but also cover his A** when/if there is a complaint to the next higher HQ or the IG.