Why we love the AF

[Major Carrales]

OH MY GOD!!!  This is sad, not the photo...but that people have actually started doing the "improper, funny uniform" thread (a la once upon a time at CADETSTUFF) with USAF uniforms. 

These photo postings, and the ensuing comments, are are height of unprofessionalism be they photos of USAF or CAP OFFICERS.  This insipid display cheapens us all!!!

I register my protest of this.

You're a little late Joe. This thread has been here since January.
And you may notice that many of the comments are from current/retired Air Force/Air Guard/Air Force Reserve personnel.

I took some time to think about the CAP side of this, most Cadets and CAP Officers end up wearing surplus uniforms taken from bins at such stores.  Since there is no real direction given on what to have, most CAP officers go with everything from personal tastes to economics in picking their uniforms.

As for the photo above, I think it is more a testament to the nature of the USAF and its reserve components...BDUs, desert uniforms and flight suits.  That people would poke fun at this sort of stuff is more of some sort of ignorance than of anything else.

I cannot understand why persons tend to post pics for all to "hammer" most unprofessionally.  Especially when people no neither the content of situation for the photo.  For all one knows that photo was taken before folks were "ready."  Still, no one thinks to that when they rush to post thing things.  That this has been up for a while only worsens the effect in that it, and the comments that follow, are on line for all to see.  This is not a "private" forum, thus now a very public ridiculing of the USAF and its components is their in its most naked form.

If I were a USAF Colonel I might be quite offended at a CAP centered forum poking fun at the USAF, more so than what the Corporate Service Uniform for CAP looks like would offend anyone.


Thank you for your level headed response.

[DNall]

No one is really poking fun at these folks. This is the second thread now with this same photo. It's here to point out how UN-seriously the AF takes uniforms on a daily basis from top to bottom, and that they have issues too. Hence, CAP (and us around here in particular) might be taking them and/or ourselves too seriously.

[Major Carrales]

No one is really poking fun at these folks. This is the second thread now with this same photo. It's here to point out how UN-seriously the AF takes uniforms on a daily basis from top to bottom, and that they have issues too. Hence, CAP (and us around here in particular) might be taking them and/or ourselves too seriously.

Well written, and many agree that the "uniform issue" consumes a great deal of bandwidth here.  I should say, my friend, that you are one that often uses that issue as a sort of barometer on USAF opinions of CAP.  I must point out that that is not so.  They are much more interested in a Wing's effective implementation of operability, such as in the Guided and Graded training exercises.  They care very, very, very little about double-breasted service coats or what shade of gray trousers need to get with what sort of CAP distinctive aviator shirt.

I will, however, maintain that a thread such as this really has no positive business other than to ridicule those in the photo. 

Tell me, any of you, of what positive vein posting USAF and USAF component photos such as the above does here?  Does it improve CAP Uniform wear?  Does it make our USAF bretheren look good or bad?  Does it provide laughter and merriment to those who woudl post here?  Hummmmmm?

P.S. the "one fat Colonel with her hands in her pocket" is a bit of poking fun.

[DNall]

Well as I said, I think its here to remind US to keep OUR feet on the ground. Certainly there's some fun being had with it, but no more or less than AF personnel would have with the same photo. They are not on a pedestal or above criticism any more than we are. As long as those comments are not overly personal or rude, then it's not a big deal to me. They had a choice how they wore their uniforms that day & they're responsible for that choice, same as we are.

As far as a barometer... CAP-USAF cares about our operability/readiness. 99% of people in the AF have no idea what those functions are, much less how we fit into the complex relationship with the AF. The only concern most of those people have is how you reflect on them - and to an extent that means them personally, not just the AF in general.

There's another thread around here that references the point in our history when we had blue epaulet sleeves & metal grade (ie a very slight modification of the then AF uniform). A disagreement then occurred in which the CAP/CC promoted himself from the authorized one to two-stars. The chief of staff was not asked and did not agree with that action - argument ensued. CAP was quite literally punished by being ordered to maroon grade sleeves for both shirt and coat. the next CAP/CC made nice, and we acquiesced as an org for a few years. Then we were granted the current gray epaulets.

I would certainly say that is a reflection of the relationship with the AF. At no time did it have anything to do with the guy on the ground doing the mission, or their opinion of how well we were/are getting it done. Nor, did it involve CAP-USAF or their views. It had to do with the political relationship between the CAP governance structure and the AETC/1AF to Air Staff, and congress thrown in the mix to keep things complex.

CAP over the last 15 years has not been a very good follower in that context. Rather, we've behaved quite immaturely. When we wanted something, be it a uniform change or more missions, and the AF was too slow in addressing our desire or flat out said no, then we've constantly found loop-holes so we could do our own thing.

For example, CAP-USAF's official position on corporate uniforms is limited to compliance with the law. I don't particularly care what any of their personal opinions are cause they don't matter. I do care about the Air Staff's opinions though. They aren't allowed to express themselves beyond the limits of their authority, which was severely restricted in 2000. But, just like our members can vote with their feet when they don't like things out of their control, the AF can & does take their frustrations with CAP out on CAP in other ways that they do control.

The uniforms themselves are not the issue at all, but to a degree the things going on with them are a reflection of the things going on at another level. As we continue to behave like children - for instance needing to have ranger tabs & a bunch of other stuff that doesn't look right on an AF uniform - that causes additional frustration. If I as a military officer am going to assign you an important task, I need to know you have the leadership, discipline, and professionalism to accomplish that task to the standards I require. If you ask yourself in every policy item if we're improving that perception or degrading it, you'll have a better guide for what we should or should not be doing.

[Major Carrales]

There's another thread around here that references the point in our history when we had blue epaulet sleeves & metal grade (ie a very slight modification of the then AF uniform). A disagreement then occurred in which the CAP/CC promoted himself from the authorized one to two-stars. The chief of staff was not asked and did not agree with that action - argument ensued. CAP was quite literally punished by being ordered to maroon grade sleeves for both shirt and coat. the next CAP/CC made nice, and we acquiesced as an org for a few years. Then we were granted the current gray epaulets. 

I have spoken with CAP-USAF folks on this and this is regarded as a myth.  The movement to get CAP away from blue epaulets had more to do with other factors than it did for that "Major General's" actions.  The idea of "punishment" from the USAF is inconsistance with USAF core values and would never occur (I do not see "vengence" listed as a USAF core value...after all).  It is more likely that the USAF simply sought more distinctiveness between themselves and their Civilian Auxiliary.

If you or anyone on this or any forum can produce memos or directives citing the maroon epaulets as a "punishment," I will retract this statement.

Well as I said, I think its here to remind US to keep OUR feet on the ground. Certainly there's some fun being had with it, but no more or less than AF personnel would have with the same photo. They are not on a pedestal or above criticism any more than we are. As long as those comments are not overly personal or rude, then it's not a big deal to me. They had a choice how they wore their uniforms that day & they're responsible for that choice, same as we are.

So, your saying it's OK to participate in less than professional behavior because others are doing it?  I can't say I agree with that rationale.  Yes, I assume they had a choice in what they wore that day...however, none here know what that was.  To make such assumptions in favor of making USAF look "ridiculous" and not recognize the other side is the stuff of childish behavior.

Does anyone know what that exact occasion was?  For all we know it might have been a "movie set," and, until otherwise proven, that "movie set" theory hold as much standing as anyother.  Supposing those folks were all assigned different functions and had a different uniform for that.

Let's be intellectually honest in these debates, shall we?  There are generals present in the photo, not out of the realm of possibility that there are extraordianry circumstances at play.

[lordmonar]

I will, however, maintain that a thread such as this really has no positive business other than to ridicule those in the photo. 

All I got to say is....if the shoe fits.....

Tell me, any of you, of what positive vein posting USAF and USAF component photos such as the above does here?  Does it improve CAP Uniform wear?  Does it make our USAF bretheren look good or bad?  Does it provide laughter and merriment to those who woudl post here?  Hummmmmm?

Positive?   I puts our arguments into context.  I provides a little enjoyment for us at the expense of one USAF officer...who should know better.  Does it make out bretheren look good or bad?  They should have thought of that before they formed up and/or published the photo.  We lement out units for doing the same thing....we are unpaid volunteers...what is their excuse.

And finally....it was said in fun.

[Major Carrales]

And finally....it was said in fun.

I can see that obviously I'm missing something in this. 

You know, you folks are former and present NCOs and Officers in the Armed Forces...who am I to argue with you.  Go ahead, make fun all you want.  What a great example that is to cadets.  Carry on!!!

[Stonewall]

Get over it, Joe.  I'm confident that you will never get it.  I will never say to a CAP volunteer that they don't know the deal because they haven't served in the military.  I don't think military experience makes or breaks a member.  In short, to me, military service can be irrelevant to one's CAP success.  However, some people just don't get it.  The silliness of some things, especially when it's in reference to uniforms.  Wearing a saucer cap is usually associated with someone being a goofball.  However, this thread is not about the stupid saucer cap.  It was my way of showing that even the Air Force has its own uniform issues, and perhaps our own issues of inconsistency, abundancy of uniform options, unwritten rules and general acceptance of "do whatever you want" may come from our parent service.

Some of us can laugh at it, while others take it so seriously that they miss the big picture and lose sight of what truly is important.  I agree that wearing uniforms properly is important.  In my experience, I have found that those who can't follow simple directions, i.e. written doctrine, with something as simple as clothing, then they often fall into another category of incompetence, conduct unbecoming or simple being irresponsible. 

The Air Force, as I have learned from [recent] firsthand experience, is not your typical (or traditional) branch of the military.  Their traditions only go back 60 years so there is an identity crisis and no one wants to make a decision, and if someone does, there are still those who rebel against it by saying things like "hell no, I'm wearing BDUs until the rip'em off my body" or "Gen. "Hap" Arnold wore a saucer cap back in the 40s so I'm going to where one today", when they are obviously (to most) an out of style uniform option.

I read a lot of your posts and I truly believe you do good for CAP and young cadets.  But even the best of intentions can be wrong or at a minimum off base.

[Major Carrales]

Get over it, Joe.  I'm confident that you will never get it.  I will never say to a CAP volunteer that they don't know the deal because they haven't served in the military.  I don't think military experience makes or breaks a member.  In short, to me, military service can be irrelevant to one's CAP success.  However, some people just don't get it.  The silliness of some things, especially when it's in reference to uniforms.  Wearing a saucer cap is usually associated with someone being a goofball.  However, this thread is not about the stupid saucer cap.  It was my way of showing that even the Air Force has its own uniform issues, and perhaps our own issues of inconsistency, abundancy of uniform options, unwritten rules and general acceptance of "do whatever you want" may come from our parent service.

Some of us can laugh at it, while others take it so seriously that they miss the big picture and lose sight of what truly is important.  I agree that wearing uniforms properly is important.  In my experience, I have found that those who can't follow simple directions, i.e. written doctrine, with something as simple as clothing, then they often fall into another category of incompetence, conduct unbecoming or simple being irresponsible. 

The Air Force, as I have learned from [recent] firsthand experience, is not your typical (or traditional) branch of the military.  Their traditions only go back 60 years so there is an identity crisis and no one wants to make a decision, and if someone does, there are still those who rebel against it by saying things like "hell no, I'm wearing BDUs until the rip'em off my body" or "Gen. "Hap" Arnold wore a saucer cap back in the 40s so I'm going to where one today", when they are obviously (to most) an out of style uniform option.

I read a lot of your posts and I truly believe you do good for CAP and young cadets.  But even the best of intentions can be wrong or at a minimum off base.

I do not know what has brought on this "tirade" against me, I assume (in looking back on this thread) that it was you that posted the original photo...thus, my stance on it may have you thinking this was some sort of "personal attack."  I can't say I understand that. 

I don't know why people like yourself, who I respect so deeply, have a tendency to "cut so hard" into things I write.  Let me just say that it is hurtful to some degree that the people I have come to trust and who's counsel, be it via some response to me directly or via merely reading your posts, I regard as "gospel" lash out so.

Well, I'm not going to respond in kind.  I've made my protests...deal with them as you please.

As to the thread and my inability to get it.  Hopefully it will be locked very soon.

[ColonelJack]

Kirt ...

If the saucer cap is, as you put it, an "out of style uniform option," then why is the Army going back to its wear with the new blue uniform?  (I know they'll keep that sorry beret with the ACU, but the saucer cap is -- from all I've read -- standard issue with the service dress blues.)  How does your statement jive with the Navy's continual, almost constant use of it, along with the Coast Guard and Marines?  If you mean it's an out-of-style Air Force option, I might disagree still -- reference the photograph of Gen. Moseley's retirement ceremony, posted here somewhere.

He's wearing one.  I don't think I'd want to call a four-star general a "goofball" because he's wearing the service cap.

I don't consider someone wearing the service cap a goofball, and I'm surprised that you of all people would say such a thing.  And I might challenge the statement that "most" see the cap as out of style.  There may be many who think that way; I doubt that it's a vast majority, much less "most" people.

Sorry, folks ... didn't mean to re-direct this to a service cap thread.

Jack

[lordmonar]

And finally....it was said in fun.

I can see that obviously I'm missing something in this. 

You know, you folks are former and present NCOs and Officers in the Armed Forces...who am I to argue with you.  Go ahead, make fun all you want.  What a great example that is to cadets.  Carry on!!!

Okay....I'll bite....what example am I giving?

Don't poke fun at other people?
Don't point out obvious examples of uniform violations?
Use said photo to put CAPTALK's uniform discussion into context?
Don't use humor to accomplish said goals?

[Stonewall]

Kirt ...

If the saucer cap is, as you put it, an "out of style uniform option," then why is the Army going back to its wear with the new blue uniform?  (I know they'll keep that sorry beret with the ACU, but the saucer cap is -- from all I've read -- standard issue with the service dress blues.)  How does your statement jive with the Navy's continual, almost constant use of it, along with the Coast Guard and Marines?  If you mean it's an out-of-style Air Force option, I might disagree still -- reference the photograph of Gen. Moseley's retirement ceremony, posted here somewhere.

He's wearing one.  I don't think I'd want to call a four-star general a "goofball" because he's wearing the service cap.

I don't consider someone wearing the service cap a goofball, and I'm surprised that you of all people would say such a thing.  And I might challenge the statement that "most" see the cap as out of style.  There may be many who think that way; I doubt that it's a vast majority, much less "most" people.

I'm talking about the AF, not the Navy or Army.  In the Army, with the blues, the only authorized hat is the saucer (service) cap.  But in the Army, you would rarely see someone wearing the green service cap in their Class As. 

In the AF, yes, people, mostly general officers, wear the saucer cap during ceremonial events, such as a retirement.  And in CAP, I actually think we should follow the AF's lead...DURING CEREMONIAL type events.  But to squadron meetings or day to day activities?  No.

I worked in the Pentagon and lived in DC for about 15 years.  On a daily basis, 95% of the time, you will not see an Air Force member, even an officer, wearing the saucer cap during the duty day.  You'll see them wearing a flight cap.  It's just what is done on a daily basis.  Sure, you get the rogue or random officer that prefers the service cap, but I couldn't tell you the last time I saw someone on base wearing short-sleeve blues with a saucer cap.  In fact, I can't ever tell you when or if I've ever seen that.  In service dress (some call'em Class As), sure, I've seen a few, like on Lackland, a handful of senior officers, Colonel and a 1-star, wore saucer caps.  But I saw the same general later in the day with a flight cap on....the saucer was only worn at the BMT graduation.  Yes, I pay attention to these types of things.

[ColonelJack]

I guess I don't see why you came down so hard on Sparky, though, because he regularly wears one.  (He has a reason, by the way.)  Since it's an option, I would imagine that personal taste has to play a role here.

I'd guess that the service cap could come in pretty handy for more than ceremonial events ... it works well when on recruiting visits, f'r instance.  Prospective cadets love that thing.  I recruited at more middle and high schools than I care to remember during my active CAP membership; it was a big draw.

I fear we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, my respected friend.  I see nothing objectionable about the service cap; to me it screams "uniform" and even "military" where the flight cap doesn't.  Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Jack

By the way, did I ever tell you how many times that little moving bug in your signature made me think there was something on my screen?   

[stratoflyer]

I'm disappointed that in my curiosity of the picture, someone expressed their feelings on the matter and a lot of harsh opinions are being dished out.

Firstly, this is a forum for opinions: everyone is entitled to their own!! So, the Major expressed one, let it be. It is what he felt. I understand the ensuing comments are the same, just merely opinions. But I think that holding a person's worth and virtue up to judgment based on what is said here is in no means productive nor honorable. I've always looked at this forum as a place of learning. If some of us can find humor in some aspects, by all means, let us not take ourselves too seriously. But let's do so respectfully.

Second, the Service Cap is a uniform item that dates back a very, very long way back in military tradition from around the world, and some of us, myself included, choose to wear it. And given the expense of such a uniform item, it is a weighty decision.

Thirdly, I do consider this matter on the picture closed. All that could have been said has been, and I think that it was interesting, but let's move our minds and talents to more pressing issues.

To all of us, much respect as we all have something to share, and contribute as well as to gain.

[DNall]

Kirt ...

If the saucer cap is, as you put it, an "out of style uniform option," then why is the Army going back to its wear with the new blue uniform?  (I know they'll keep that sorry beret with the ACU, but the saucer cap is -- from all I've read -- standard issue with the service dress blues.)  How does your statement jive with the Navy's continual, almost constant use of it, along with the Coast Guard and Marines?  If you mean it's an out-of-style Air Force option, I might disagree still -- reference the photograph of Gen. Moseley's retirement ceremony, posted here somewhere.

FYI, the class B (w/o the coat) blue uniform in the Army will be blue pants w/ gray shirt & beret. I understand the service cap will be allowed with that uniform for certain instances, like Army recruiters trying to look as cool as marine recruiters, but will not at all be the standard. And thank God, cause that'd be annoying as hell to carry around, and the flipping thin costs almost a hundred bucks for the company grade version with branch piping & crest attached. Of course the service cap will be worn when the coat is also worn, which is as it should be.

The service cap in the AF is worn exclusively with full service dress & for formal daytime occasions - ie funerals, retirements, hanging around the hill/capital. The written rules aren't that tight in order to provide latitude for the individual to interpret which situations are appropriate & which are not.

I have spoken with CAP-USAF folks on this and this is regarded as a myth.  The movement to get CAP away from blue epaulets had more to do with other factors than it did for that "Major General's" actions.  The idea of "punishment" from the USAF is inconsistance with USAF core values and would never occur (I do not see "vengence" listed as a USAF core value...after all).  It is more likely that the USAF simply sought more distinctiveness between themselves and their Civilian Auxiliary.

If you or anyone on this or any forum can produce memos or directives citing the maroon epaulets as a "punishment," I will retract this statement.

Those CAP-USAF people are not NOW in a position to know details of disagreements between the deputy SecAF, CSAF, and CAP/CC. They were certainly not in such a position 20 years ago. Most of them were not in the AF, and probably never heard of CAP at the time. If you want to ref the thread & some people with a more direct view of the situation in question, it's here:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5745.msg111486

The core values we have now came out under Wignall/Fogleman. They were not in place when this occurred. However, if you believe official core values in any way prevent (then or now) vindictive policies, you are (unfortunately) very mistaken.

Well as I said, I think its here to remind US to keep OUR feet on the ground. Certainly there's some fun being had with it, but no more or less than AF personnel would have with the same photo. They are not on a pedestal or above criticism any more than we are. As long as those comments are not overly personal or rude, then it's not a big deal to me. They had a choice how they wore their uniforms that day & they're responsible for that choice, same as we are.

So, your saying it's OK to participate in less than professional behavior because others are doing it?  I can't say I agree with that rationale.  Yes, I assume they had a choice in what they wore that day...however, none here know what that was.  To make such assumptions in favor of making USAF look "ridiculous" and not recognize the other side is the stuff of childish behavior.[/quote]

As Patrick said, it's about putting ourselves and our discussions in context, while having some fun with it.

These folks are not above reproach. No one is, ever. Their uniform, behavior, weight, etc standards are set in stone, and they chose not to be a good example of those in this photo. They are responsible for that. Just like you are responsible for doing your job to standard every day, and accountable for the result for better or worse.

Does anyone know what that exact occasion was?  For all we know it might have been a "movie set," and, until otherwise proven, that "movie set" theory hold as much standing as anyother.  Supposing those folks were all assigned different functions and had a different uniform for that.

Let's be intellectually honest in these debates, shall we?  There are generals present in the photo, not out of the realm of possibility that there are extraordianry circumstances at play.

I believe we've established it's a class photo at the ANG national training center where they do OTS & such. Looks like OTS or an ALS to me, but some of the other folks here probably have a better idea.

It's a utility uniform day. BDUs & ABUs would be authorized because this would be the front end of the transition. You see all the students/staff are uniform in BDUs w/ designated organizational cap. Flight suit IS the auth (encouraged & sometimes required) utility uniform for all personnel on flight status, regardless if they are flying that day or not. The tan flight suit & navy style hat are allowed for wear ONLY in CENTCOM, which this photo is not.


All those criticisms are valid. Pointing out people with their hands in their pockets and out of weight standards is too. They have control over all those things and a responsibility to do them to standard. When they choose not to do so in such an obvious lax way, that makes them the object of criticism, and it's their fault - just as it is your or my fault when we don't do what we're supposed to do. Calling people names because of it would not be professional, and I haven't seen anyone do that here.

In short, relax. They are people too, they do things wrong & prioritize other things over stuff like uniforms.

[DNall]

If the saucer cap is, as you put it, an "out of style uniform option," then why is the Army going back to its wear with the new blue uniform?  (I know they'll keep that sorry beret with the ACU, but the saucer cap is -- from all I've read -- standard issue with the service dress blues.)

FYI, the class B (w/o the coat) blue uniform in the Army will be blue pants w/ gray shirt & beret. I understand the service cap will be allowed with that uniform for certain instances, like Army recruiters trying to look as cool as marine recruiters, but will not at all be the standard. And thank God, cause that'd be annoying as hell to carry around, and the flipping thin costs almost a hundred bucks for the company grade version with branch piping & crest attached. Of course the service cap will be worn when the coat is also worn, which is as it should be.

Correction!!!!

They finally put out final guidance on the Army Blue Service Uniform. It's authorized in October & encouraged for wear. Initial issue to new recruits is 4Q 2010, mandatory 2014. It IS beret w/ class Bs as I said, as of now the service (wheel) hat is not authorized. They're staying with a white shirt & adding eps to it versus the gray as we'd been told. This picture is serious, even if the caption isn't, but it's funny too. You think CAP wears too much bling?

[Grumpy]

OMG.  I can't find the words to describe what a clown he looks like.  I wonder what my boy, an Army Scout, thinks of this.  The complete blue uniform (Class A if you will) looks pretty nice complete with service cover.  But this!

He' better not knock the size of our senior NCO stripes again.   

[stratoflyer]

Now hold on a sec...is that what the army is going to wear? The US Army?

[Grumpy]

Looks like those "Guardian Angles" that walk the streets of New York.

[MIKE]

Ok, now this thread has drifted sufficiently.