Down with grog

[SARMedTech]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  
  
• When discussing hazing scenarios, context is everything, and information is power.  What may look bad on the surface turns out not to be that much of a stretch when viewed in context, and vice versa.
  
  
• Bad leadership is not the same thing as hazing.  Someone can do something really stupid and use astonishingly bad judgement, but that doesn't mean hazing has occurred.

With those thoughts in mind, let's revisit the opening question: Is the grog bowl tradition hazing?

Does a grog bowl cause people to suffer?  Is it cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful?

Think about those words.  Those are strong words.  Very serious acts are attached to those words.  Is drinking fruit punch with goldfish in it really harmful or abusive?

Now, keep in mind, context is everything.  There are grog mixtures that are less harmful than most energy drinks kids drink these days.  Then there are grog mixtures that make people vomit.  They're not the same thing.

If the grog mixture has paper clips, gin and Ex-Lax in it, and we're feeding it to 12-year-olds, is it cruel, abusive, or harmful?

Ah, now we may arrive at a different answer.

So it's not so clear.

Just read the handful of replies in this thread; reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes hazing, and that's an issue.  It's an issue with the definition, and an issue with the training CAP provides to its senior members.

Personally, if it's done in good fun and contains no harmful ingredients, I think calling it hazing is inappropriate.  But, like a lot of traditions, I think it's easy for otherwise well-meaning people to make it into something that can cause people to suffer.

Which is why I said in my first post that a grog bowl is not, on the surface, evidence of hazing.

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

[jb512]

First of all, anybody who puts harmful substances in a Grog Bowl should be shot.  Anybody who puts alcohol in a Grog Bowl at a function involving cadets should also be shot.  Their judgement is so demonstrably poor as to be beyond rehabilitation.

That being said, the good-natured fun of a Grog Bowl is a part of the formal dining experience, and should not be denied to cadets... or officers for that matter.

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing.   If you think so, I have to question your judgement.

And... you know what I think should be done to people with bad judgement!   

Best reply I've seen so far.  I'd even add that if you're not hoping to be called to the grog then there's something wrong with ya.

[NIN]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

[Nathan]

While there still seems to be horror stories about the grog bowl, it seems that those stories (ie the story of several cadets throwing up and such) seen to be the exception, and not the norm. We can't ban any activity that CAN potentially get out of hand, because in CAP, the list would force us to shut down the cadet programs altogether. It seems that this activity is a lot like, oh, a Project X, or an obstacle course, where cadets, if they act unprofessional, may end up doing harm, but the idea is still all in fun and if properly implemented is nothing but entertainment.

[SARMedTech]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

That is a profoundly ignorant comparison, a bit like comparing horse shoes and hand grenades. There was a discussion going on about the legality and ethics of hazing, going to the grog in particular. In the last year, I have run on two EMS calls where young fraternity wannabes drank a concoction out of a bowl (same college both times) and while it contained no alcohol, its contents did make them quite sick. That, oh Colonel, my Colonel, is battery and charges were pressed in both situations. I know this because I was brought in to testify as to the effects I witnessed after the pledges drank whatever it was. In one case, there was a small amount of propylene glycol. While I dont think that SMs would do this to cadets or cadets to each other, stranger things have happened.

[jb512]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

That is a profoundly ignorant comparison, a bit like comparing horse shoes and hand grenades. There was a discussion going on about the legality and ethics of hazing, going to the grog in particular. In the last year, I have run on two EMS calls where young fraternity wannabes drank a concoction out of a bowl (same college both times) and while it contained no alcohol, its contents did make them quite sick. That, oh Colonel, my Colonel, is battery and charges were pressed in both situations. I know this because I was brought in to testify as to the effects I witnessed after the pledges drank whatever it was. In one case, there was a small amount of propylene glycol. While I dont think that SMs would do this to cadets or cadets to each other, stranger things have happened.

And we all know that some college pranks have gotten that far out of hand.

What we are defending is an old tradition and practice of camaraderie.  When properly supervised and performed, as all cadet activities should be, there is no need to ban the practice because of some college kids getting out of hand.

My guess is that those were fraternity events and not a traditional military ceremony.

[Major Carrales]

There is an element of stupidity that must be mitigated.  I was at a get together once with a friend who was starved for attention.

I was not a drinker at the time, but my friend was quite into fitting in by drinking large amounts of anything they would give him.  I had gravitated to another part of the party...chiefly to pursue an attractive female's interest...and when I returned to the original scene, my friend was downing a swill made by one of our less scrupulous acquaintances.

He drank it.  Another friend of mine, pulled me aside to the kitchen where he attempted to get a laugh out of me by showing me what he was drinking.  It seemed that they had mixed several alcoholic spirits, including tequila and various others, with some household chemicals, including small amounts Ajax and Miracle Grow plant food.

I was not amused.  This seems to be common, a sober person among the Philistines outraged at what was going to likely be a sad thing (I guess it was my LOTT in life to be in those situations)

We left.  Needless to say, my friend, began to feel sick and vomited several times on the way back to Kinsgville from Corpus Christi.  I didn't know much about alcoholic induced vomiting and probably should have taken him to a hospitial...but as I said, I didn't know much about it at the time.  

My wife gets annoyed when I recall every place he vomited when we drive the route to Corpus some 10+ years later.

My friend learned a lesson, as did I.  Stupidity is a potential killer.

Now, as to grogs.  What can I say?  If it is benign tradition and controlled, so be it.  If it is stupidity's child, let it die.

[lordmonar]

I say again...it is military tradition with a proper place and proper application.

As in all things.....any thing can be taken to extremes and can humiliate, injure and sometimes kill.

But just as in anything we do in CAP, the Military, or real life we can still have some fun with out any of that.

Common sense is all that it takes.

[baronet68]

...when the first person wasn't able to hack it, it should have been put an end too. It was tit for tat when the creator couldn't hack it either...

At every grog event I've attended, the first point of order I bring up is that the creator(s) of the grog need to drink from the grog to demonstrate proper grog technique and show everyone that the grog is not harmful.

Never had a Vice or President who disagreed and having a reputation for calling that point of order means that those charged with mixing a grog will exercise some common sense.


Regarding toilet bowls, I've never seen a grog served from a toilet bowl, but our squadron did have a chocolate-based grog (served in a punch bowl) that was sitting next to a un-soiled toilet sporting a plunger.  For effect, the punch bowl was 'garnished' with toilet paper.

[star1151]

My guess is that those were fraternity events and not a traditional military ceremony.

And sometimes those two things are more alike than you'd probably care to admit.