Down with grog

[Dad2-4]

This may open a can of worms, but can't a grog bowl be considered hazing?
Reading from regulations:
"CAP REGULATION 52-10, 11 JANUARY 2006
1.c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

So what I see is a group of cadets dumping all sorts of ingredients into a bowl, sometimes approved for human comsumption, sometimes not, and using "military tradition" and peer pressure to get cadets to drink it for "infractions" against the mess. So even if the cadet drinks upon "implied consent", doesn't it still fit the definition of "humiliating" or "demeaning"?

[Hawk200]

I've never been to anyplace that had cadets going to a grog bowl. Considering some seniors, I wouldn't want them to.

[dwb]

Generally, no.

Obviously, I don't condone putting alcohol or thumb tacks or potential allergens (i.e., peanuts) in the grog.

However, I would be hard pressed to provide a compelling argument that a grog bowl is prima facie an act of hazing.  However, like any tradition, it needs to be done in a certain context and in a reasonable manner.

[ddelaney103]

Hazing?  Almost certainly, esp. with the tight rules we have.

When "corrective action =/= transgression" you have potential for hazing.  Add to it that drinking some vile concoction is at least flirting with:

Conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

and you're there.

[jimmydeanno]

I actually took some of my cadets to a ROTC dining-in a few weeks ago - they were all nervous about the grog (jet fuel, sand, cat urine, etc ) But I wouldn't consider it hazing at all.  

The CAP activities that I've been to that have had a grog actually make some pretty tasty grog - ginger-ale, fruit punch, some other tasty things.  

Most of what I've seen from the cadets is that they look for ways to get called up.

[O-Rex]

Grog bowl is all in fun: we put in the final "special ingredient:" simple apple juice, which incidentally looks alot like, well. . . you know. . . . .

In the days of yore, grog was usually a heinous concoction, now it's usually all in good fun, with harmless ingredients, and a little bit of the power of suggestion.

[dwb]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  
  
• When discussing hazing scenarios, context is everything, and information is power.  What may look bad on the surface turns out not to be that much of a stretch when viewed in context, and vice versa.
  
  
• Bad leadership is not the same thing as hazing.  Someone can do something really stupid and use astonishingly bad judgement, but that doesn't mean hazing has occurred.

With those thoughts in mind, let's revisit the opening question: Is the grog bowl tradition hazing?

Does a grog bowl cause people to suffer?  Is it cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful?

Think about those words.  Those are strong words.  Very serious acts are attached to those words.  Is drinking fruit punch with goldfish in it really harmful or abusive?

Now, keep in mind, context is everything.  There are grog mixtures that are less harmful than most energy drinks kids drink these days.  Then there are grog mixtures that make people vomit.  They're not the same thing.

If the grog mixture has paper clips, gin and Ex-Lax in it, and we're feeding it to 12-year-olds, is it cruel, abusive, or harmful?

Ah, now we may arrive at a different answer.

So it's not so clear.

Just read the handful of replies in this thread; reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes hazing, and that's an issue.  It's an issue with the definition, and an issue with the training CAP provides to its senior members.

Personally, if it's done in good fun and contains no harmful ingredients, I think calling it hazing is inappropriate.  But, like a lot of traditions, I think it's easy for otherwise well-meaning people to make it into something that can cause people to suffer.

Which is why I said in my first post that a grog bowl is not, on the surface, evidence of hazing.

[isuhawkeye]

As a person who was truly "Hazed" I find it interesting how many people perceive this issue.  Hazing became a problem in out culture not because someone felt uncomfortable, but because Young men and women were DYING.

Thank goodness organisations have done a lot to limit true hazing incidents.  Having said that.......

*****_Redacted for political correctness_******

[wuzafuzz]

We had a Dining-In last week and cadets were volunteering to visit the grog bowl.  Although people with no uniform were considered off limits, new cadets without uniforms insisted they be sent anyway.  They enjoyed the attention.  Senior members were also fair game; a few of them visited the bowl.  Everyone enjoyed it.  In the right context it's definitely not hazing.

My son was one of the cadets who visited the grog bowl.  He had a blast!

(Disclaimer: the grog didn't taste good, nor was it horrible.)

[Flying Pig]

I was sent to the grog many times at cadet activities....never embarassed, and noboby made it out without getting grog'd.  Enjoyed every second.  Well, didnt really enjoy the soggy Cheetos, but still fun.

[Eclipse]

OK, let me ask you this.

What happens to a member who simply wanted to attend the party without:

A: getting sick (gross grog).

B: getting overly intoxicated & sick (alcoholic grog).

He simply politely refuse to drink the muck?

[flyguy06]

This may open a can of worms, but can't a grog bowl be considered hazing?
Reading from regulations:
"CAP REGULATION 52-10, 11 JANUARY 2006
1.c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

So what I see is a group of cadets dumping all sorts of ingredients into a bowl, sometimes approved for human comsumption, sometimes not, and using "military tradition" and peer pressure to get cadets to drink it for "infractions" against the mess. So even if the cadet drinks upon "implied consent", doesn't it still fit the definition of "humiliating" or "demeaning"?

Your post brings up my whole issue about hazing in General. Its an undefinable term. Hazing means differant things to differant people.
Ihoe however that we dont get tho the point where we are so afraind to "haze" or offend someone that we just do nothing but come in and talk. I mean drill could be considered hazing to some folks

[Flying Pig]

OK, let me ask you this.

What happens to a member who simply wanted to attend the party without:

A: getting sick (gross grog).

B: getting overly intoxicated & sick (alcoholic grog).

He simply politely refuse to drink the muck?

Ive never seen anyone "forced" to go to the grog.  In CAP, Ive never seen ANY alcohol in a grog bowl.  As a CAP member, Ive seen members who just said "No Thank You" and people moved right along without missing a beat. 

[flyguy06]

Ok, some people have never seen a real grog.

Most grog's do not really have alcohol or al that other bad stuffin them. I do not drink period and I have been to a many dining ins/outs

[Gunner C]

I remember the days BEFORE the grog at Dining-Ins.  It seemed that the entertainment was provided by Mr Vice - the first one I went to was a scream!  I really have a problem with the Grog Bowl.  It's just in bad taste and doesn't add anything to the event.

I think it stems from people trying to "out military the military."  IMO, it's just stupid.  BTW, if there was alcohol in the grog, you'd have one heck of a law suit from me!  You have no right to expect anyone to drink that stuff.

Gunner

[Galahad]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  

Major, that's a great point.  The following is a little off track from the grog issue, but I think it's worth the detour. 

One of the things I see all too frequently now is the "specious" hazing or abuse complaint. The victim basically throws mud against the wall to see if it will stick.  They are completely insulated.  If they've lied or grossly exaggerated nothing will fall back on them. The complaint will be quietly dismissed, but only after the inevitable character assassination has been accomplished.

True example:  A senior officer taps a giggling cadet officer from another squadron on the shoulder to get them to pay attention to an important briefing prior to a CAP public performance. Cadet officer is embarrassed. After the briefing, senior officer senses cadet's distress and apologizes to cadet, explaining that tapping them on the shoulder was the only reasonable method to get their attention since they were unresponsive to verbal commands. After event is concluded, cadet officer files a cadet protection "physical abuse" complaint against the senior officer.   Senior officer is called before a tribunal headed by the wing commander at wing HQ. Officer has to burn vacation time to leave work early to attend meeting. Wing commander threatens officer with a CAPF-2B for "touching a cadet without permission", but then concedes that he can't proceed because the cadet has decided to drop the complaint. Wing commander orders the officer to participate in "remedial" CPPT training. Officer will be "watched" for any further CPPT violations.    Said officer will now not get anywhere near a CAP cadet...

I'm all for strict CPPT, but this hit-and-run nonsense should also have consequences. 

I've seen similar post-event "he-said/she-said" complaints about what was in the grog at encampment banquets, and whether cadets got sick or didn't after drinking the grog. Many accusations- few facts.

[flyerthom]

What is a grog bowl? I've never heard of one and have been to many squadron and wing banquets.

[Johnny Yuma]

In the 11 combined years I've been in CAP I've only been to one Dining in that had a grog bowl.

I prefer real Grog:

3 pints water
1 pint Pusser's British Navy Rum
1 Lime
Dark Brown sugar to taste

Mix all ingredients and pour over ice.

Don't forget the toast of the day:
Monday: Our ships at sea.
Tuesday: Our men.
Wednesday: Ourselves.
Thursday: A bloody war and quick promotion.
Friday: A willing soul and sea room.
Saturday: Sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.
Sunday: Absent friends and those at sea.

http://www.pussers.com

[Eclipse]

What is a grog bowl? I've never heard of one and have been to many squadron and wing banquets.

One of these days Wikipedia will be available for everyone, but until it is:

Honoring the 18th Century British Army regimental mess and grog's historical significance in the military, the United States Navy, United States Air Force, and United States Army carry on a tradition at its formal dining in ceremonies whereby those in attendance who are observed to violate formal etiquette are "punished" by being sent to "the grog" and publicly drink from it in front of the attendees. The grog usually consists of various alcoholic beverages mixed together, unappealing to the taste, and contained in a toilet bowl. A non-alcoholic variety of the grog is also typically available for those in attendance who do not consume alcohol and can contain anything from hot sauce to mayonnaise intended to make it unappealing to the taste as well. Attendees may also be singled out and sent to "the grog" for some good-natured ribbing and teasing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

First of all, anybody who puts harmful substances in a Grog Bowl should be shot.  Anybody who puts alcohol in a Grog Bowl at a function involving cadets should also be shot.  Their judgement is so demonstrably poor as to be beyond rehabilitation.

That being said, the good-natured fun of a Grog Bowl is a part of the formal dining experience, and should not be denied to cadets... or officers for that matter.

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing.   If you think so, I have to question your judgement.

And... you know what I think should be done to people with bad judgement!   

[LittleIronPilot]

This may open a can of worms, but can't a grog bowl be considered hazing?
Reading from regulations:
"CAP REGULATION 52-10, 11 JANUARY 2006
1.c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

So what I see is a group of cadets dumping all sorts of ingredients into a bowl, sometimes approved for human comsumption, sometimes not, and using "military tradition" and peer pressure to get cadets to drink it for "infractions" against the mess. So even if the cadet drinks upon "implied consent", doesn't it still fit the definition of "humiliating" or "demeaning"?

Wow...that could mean ANYTHING can be construed as "hazing". Heck I remember when the military did away with blood wings after graduating Jump School. Fortunately they did that AFTER I graduated or I would have been PISSED. I earned my blood wings dangit!

Galahad...the day that happens to me will be the day I quit. I am all for protection of the Cadets...but it sounds like a low-level review would have sufficed, but all of that for merely tapping a cadet on the shoulder, you have got to be kidding me!

[AlphaSigOU]

In the 11 combined years I've been in CAP I've only been to one Dining in that had a grog bowl... Don't forget the toast of the day:
Monday: Our ships at sea.
Tuesday: Our men.
Wednesday: Ourselves.
Thursday: A bloody war and quick promotion.
Friday: A willing soul and sea room.
Saturday: Sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.
Sunday: Absent friends and those at sea.

The Queen... God bless her! (Traditionally inscribed on the British Navy grog bowls.)

[ZigZag911]

Galahad:

Wing CC should not be chairing any "tribunal", since  as corporate officer, Wing CC is our equivalent of 'convening authority' in the military....serving on a review or investigation board is a conflict in roles.

A complaint of this nature ought to have been resolved much further down the chain of command....I don't see where officer concerned did anything wrong at all; the most that could be questioned is method -- there is no element of physical abuse or hazing evident in what you describe here.

[Major Carrales]

One of these days Wikipedia will be available for everyone, but until it is:

C'mon, the person in question asked a simple question and solicited and answer from his fellow CAP Officers and Cadets.  We can oblige this person as brother CAP Airmen for the sheer good of us all.

In anycase, I don't think Wikipedia is "CAP-CENTRIC" and likely CAP requested info will only be obfuscated by a wiki answer.  There is a CAP Cadet Wiki at CADETSTUFF.ORG.  We should all go there and contribute to it.

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Even then I will not stand easy with the standard "look it up" answer.  They are looking it by taping our pooled knowledge.

[Eclipse]

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing. 

Define "good natured". As we all know, for some cadets, "good natured" involves duct tape. 

I'll make this easy, it has no place in CAP.

The whole intention of the grog is to get people stinking drunk and sick publicly - push them to binge drink to their limit while humiliating themselves.  By the third or fourth round, most drinkers are pouring half the glass on themselves, assuming they can get to the bowl, and of course this is circular, because if you don't overturn a dry glass, you need to take another.

This behavior just perpetuates the stereotype that adults can't be social without alcohol.  If a bunch of Sierra-Hotel fighter jocks want to do this, fine, but to make cadets believe this is a good idea is the opposite of what we should be teaching them.

I have personally heard cadets say they "can't wait to be able to drink the 'real' stuff" - so its ginger ale and  ketchup today, and brass monkey and ripple next year.

Why would we encourage this type of behavior in our cadets?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have been to several such events, in the Army, where the Grog Bowl was simply a mixture of wine.  I have never been to any such event where the GB was designed to make you puke. 

No wonder the Army kicked the Air Corps out to go form its own branch.  Apparently they can't behave as gentlemen.

If you think the GB is some kind of device to encourage alcohol consumption, what is your opinion of toasts?

[Eclipse]

A toast doesn't (generally) happen every 5 or ten minutes, and certainly you're not encouraged (generally) to down your entire glass of wine dry and hold it over your head, only to drink another full glass until such time as you're able to turn the glass over completely dry.

[wuzafuzz]

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing. 

Define "good natured". As we all know, for some cadets, "good natured" involves duct tape. 

I'll make this easy, it has no place in CAP.

The whole intention of the grog is to get people stinking drunk and sick publicly - push them to binge drink to their limit while humiliating themselves.  By the third or fourth round, most drinkers are pouring half the glass on themselves, assuming they can get to the bowl, and of course this is circular, because if you don't overturn a dry glass, you need to take another.

This behavior just perpetuates the stereotype that adults can't be social without alcohol.  If a bunch of Sierra-Hotel fighter jocks want to do this, fine, but to make cadets believe this is a good idea is the opposite of what we should be teaching them.

I have personally heard cadets say they "can't wait to be able to drink the 'real' stuff" - so its ginger ale and  ketchup today, and brass monkey and ripple next year.

Why would we encourage this type of behavior in our cadets?

The Grog Bowl can still have a place in CAP, the misbehavior of some is no reason the ban the activity from those who manage it responsibly.  Drinking punch and encouraging good manners is neither inherently dangerous or immoral. 

[lordmonar]

The whole intention of the grog is to get people stinking drunk and sick publicly - push them to binge drink to their limit while humiliating themselves.  By the third or fourth round, most drinkers are pouring half the glass on themselves, assuming they can get to the bowl, and of course this is circular, because if you don't overturn a dry glass, you need to take another.

Strange.....in all my 22 years in the military....and all the dining in/outs that I have attended have I ever seen anyone ever go up for their their or fourth round!


Nor is it mandatory to drink from the grog or even attend the event.  Now days we have a "leaded" and "Un-leaded" version of the grog so those who do not partake in alcohol may refrain.

But all that aside.

The Grog is a tradition of the USAF.....is it hazing?  Sure it is.  But as we keep pointing out the some rules and regulations can be taken too far in their implementation.  But that is why only the President of the Mess can send someone to the Grog and he can only do that if Mr/Ms Vice even recognizes him in the first place.

So we can jump up and down and say Grog has no place in CAP....but then we can say that Uniforms have no place in CAP as well.  Just how much of the baby are going to throw out with the bath water?

[dwb]

The whole intention of the grog is to get people stinking drunk and sick publicly - push them to binge drink to their limit while humiliating themselves.  By the third or fourth round, most drinkers are pouring half the glass on themselves, assuming they can get to the bowl, and of course this is circular, because if you don't overturn a dry glass, you need to take another.

And this is why I don't like to debate on Internet forums.  You're expressing an opinion based on your experiences and/or things you heard second or third hand.  That's perfectly okay, except that you're stating it as fact.

I have been to events, I have hosted events, where a grog was present and none of these things happened.  People did not get upset stomachs, people were not abused, people were not drinking alcohol period (adults included).

Like anything, a grog tradition can be taken too far.  Heck, drill can be taken too far.  You can make cadets stand at attention for two hours in the hot sun while you yell at them.  Shall we ban drill?

I'd rather teach our cadets and adult leaders how to use good judgement and how to avoid the dangerous attitudes that lead to hazing (e.g., trying to one-up one's predecessor) than to run around banning everything that, at one point in time, got out of hand.  Exercising good judgement is a lot more useful of a life skill than knee-jerk reactions.

[Hawk200]

You know, there's a simple way for someone to ensure that they don't fall into a situation of being "hazed". Don't attend.

There are too many events that people want to attend, as long as it's done their way. Many would poke fun at anyone sent to a grog, but would become heinously offended if sent themselves. Those people can best serve themselves (which they wish to do) by remaining at home.

[PA Guy]

The whole intention of the grog is to get people stinking drunk and sick publicly - push them to binge drink to their limit while humiliating themselves.  By the third or fourth round, most drinkers are pouring half the glass on themselves, assuming they can get to the bowl, and of course this is circular, because if you don't overturn a dry glass, you need to take another.

And this is why I don't like to debate on Internet forums.  You're expressing an opinion based on your experiences and/or things you heard second or third hand.  That's perfectly okay, except that you're stating it as fact.

I have been to events, I have hosted events, where a grog was present and none of these things happened.  People did not get upset stomachs, people were not abused, people were not drinking alcohol period (adults included).

Like anything, a grog tradition can be taken too far.  Heck, drill can be taken too far.  You can make cadets stand at attention for two hours in the hot sun while you yell at them.  Shall we ban drill?

I'd rather teach our cadets and adult leaders how to use good judgement and how to avoid the dangerous attitudes that lead to hazing (e.g., trying to one-up one's predecessor) than to run around banning everything that, at one point in time, got out of hand.  Exercising good judgement is a lot more useful of a life skill than knee-jerk reactions.

Uhhh, what he said.  Finally, a voice of reason.

[ddelaney103]

A lot of reasonable points - but I will try to refute them, if I may.

Bottom Line Up Front - sending someone to the grog bowl is hazing.  I don't that anyone here with a straight face is going to say that giving "go drink something (nasty or not) out of the toilet bowl over there" is a legitimate corrective action under CPP.

The question really becomes "does the tradition and camaraderie the grog bowl represents outweigh introducing a hazing event into the CP?"

First (in true ORM fashion) the risks:

First, most of the "tradition" of what goes into grog is second hand knowledge or remembrances of what they might have done in the RM.  Short of a CAP Pamphlet on grog (which would cause the General Counsel's head to explode) that's the way it's going to remain.  Letting people loose with only the vague idea that "grog's supposed to be nasty" could be a recipe for disaster.

Second, there is the tacit support of hazing as OK.  While a grog bowl formulated and administered by "responsible adults," which is not the same as Senior Members, is mostly harmless, the suggestion that hazing is OK "within limits" is not.

The problem is it can be very difficult to hold hazing to those limits, especially when these activities are neither official nor taking place out in the open.  WIWALackland, we were held to unnaturally high standards of cleanliness. 

However, as time went on we "learned" ways to cheat the system - restricting use of the facilities (when inspection order for urinals is "clean and dry," you just can't use them) or illegal cleaning products, for example.  All of this came with a layer of lying and least a blind eye from the TI's.  When one of the places to hide cleaning products was in the TI's night bed, you've gotta figure they're in on it.

Indeed, when it came time for Adult Values Education (AF Basic's Moral Leadership) the Chaplain was all over the problem of people cutting corners to "get the job done."  It was a good lesson, but when the Padre says one thing and the Sgt says another, you know which way the average trainee is going to break.

Now, there are times you have to go beyond the rules, but it requires a level of knowledge and experience far beyond your average troop.  Front loading this sort of idea is setting them up for failure.  Something we should keep in mind since we're running a training environment.

Now, the possible mitigation strategies:

Someone suggested the "don't go" option.  That way has two problems: imparting the information so people can make that decision, and the lure of hazing.

For a person to make an informed decision about the grog bowl at an event, a full description of what it entailed would need to be made available to officers, Cadets, and their parents.  Personally, I can't see myself doing that.  The Wing Legal Officer was the Best Man at my wedding: subjecting him to all those calls from above and below would seem to be poor payback for his labors.

The problem with hazing is it is often considered a rite of passage.  It's what separates the in's from the out's.  Many would consider skipping the hazing would also be considered skipping being part of the team.  I know I did.

In my "pipeline" Tech School, there was the tradition of having security games where there were items that could be taken from an unlocked room to show you slipped up.  If you kept it all the way to "grad out," you passed it along to someone else.

In my case, I was offered the "bone stick" a broomhandle representing the idea of overly officious enforcement of rules.  There were two ways to receive this gift: you could either have it swatted across your backside, or you have it passed to you from between your legs.

I decided to take the hit, literally.   I had a reputation for being standoffish and rule-bound and figured that playing the game and taking the hard way would increase my reputation and lower some barriers.

It worked, if for no other reason that he broke the stick across my bottom.  This was a lucky break, as it meant it hurt less (a lot of the force of the blow goes into breaking the wood) and everyone was really impressed (I took the blow totally stoically).

However, with maturity comes the additional knowledge that I shouldn't have done it.  While my mental calculations were correct, I never considered that by doing that I added my moral weight to the tradition.  Airmen that might have been on the fence about the hazing might have been swayed by my participation.  I have no way of knowing and can only hope that no one got hurt because of my actions, even though I never hazed anyone (the pieces of the stick were passed to the dumpster when I left).

Finally, what is the effect of hazard avoidance?  Will the dining in be ruined without the grog bowl?  I'm sure we'll be missing a few good war stories but people will still have a good time without it.

Now I know I've got a lot of baggage wrapped up in this, so I might not be the best judge.  Still, it seems to me that the benefits of the grog bowl do not outweigh the hazards of it.  It's certainly not worth bending CPP to make it a tradition of CAP.

Of course, that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

[JohnKachenmeister]

If you think toasts in the RM are not "Every 5 minutes" you have never been to International Armed Forces Night in Canada.  A toast is required, first to the Queen, and then to the Armed Forces of the British Commonwealth.  Then to the President and the Armed Forces of the United`States.  Then, in descending order based on numbers of officers in attendance, to the Head of State and the Armed Forces of EACH NATION REPRESENTED.

("To the Armed Forces of Malawi... Wherever the heck that is!")

Toasts and the Grog Bowl are traditional parts of a military dining in.  We can't create an appreciation in the cadets for respecting traditions by banning certain traditions simply because they may someday suggest the use of alcohol.

And I have NEVER seen anything but good-natured teasing and bantering at a dining in.  If you do not understand the nature of good-natured teasing and bantering, and believe it involves "Duct tape," I would suggest that you have never been to a dining in.  And if you were, it was as a waiter.

A dining in is a celebration of the brotherhood of men of arms.  Sometimes we do a little silly "Roasting" of one another, but the central theme of the dinner is that "All of the brothers are valiant, and all of the sisters are virtuous."

[NIN]

I've had this post brewing for a few days, so bear with me. Long post follows, so skip it if you're not interested...

And this is why I don't like to debate on Internet forums.  You're expressing an opinion based on your experiences and/or things you heard second or third hand.  That's perfectly okay, except that you're stating it as fact.

I have been to events, I have hosted events, where a grog was present and none of these things happened.  People did not get upset stomachs, people were not abused, people were not drinking alcohol period (adults included).

Like anything, a grog tradition can be taken too far.  Heck, drill can be taken too far.  You can make cadets stand at attention for two hours in the hot sun while you yell at them.  Shall we ban drill?

I'd rather teach our cadets and adult leaders how to use good judgement and how to avoid the dangerous attitudes that lead to hazing (e.g., trying to one-up one's predecessor) than to run around banning everything that, at one point in time, got out of hand.  Exercising good judgement is a lot more useful of a life skill than knee-jerk reactions.

Can't say I disagree with a thing Dan said here. Seriously.

I've been to dining outs up and down the hierarchy in at least four military organizations (CAP, the Army, the Michigan National Guard, and the ACA) over the last 26 years. Some have featured grog bowls, others have not.

(Sidebar: From a strictly personal standpoint, those events that featured the grog bowl seemed to be more "fun" or "enjoyable" than those that did not.  Not in every case, but I would say that the majority of the time.. Just a non-statistically accurate personal observation.)

One of the "program elements" at the region staff college I attended in 2003 was a dining out at the end of the week (in theory it was really a "dining in," since everybody was a CAP member and we were all part of or associated with the staff college in some way, but it was called a "dining out").

During the week, we heard some grumbling out of the other seminar group about the dining out, but my seminar group was pretty stoked to go.  The seminar group assignments that year produced a very odd mix of people. My seminar group was a "younger" group, with a fairly young seminar advisor, while the other group was an distinctly "older" group of members with an older gentleman as their seminar advisor. We were predominately CP and AE sorts with a few ops types, the other group was mostly comm, admin and ground ops folks with just one CP-centric guy that I knew of.  During the week, most, if not all of them, wore the CAP distinctive uniforms while most of my seminar wore the AF-style uniforms (I even wore CAP-distinctives a couple days of the staff college, as did some of my seminar mates, just to blunt this particular talking point, but it still remained)  Our group was extroverted and had a pretty high proportion of "type A" personalities, whereas the other group was mainly a bunch of introverts, several of whom would probably not protest in the slightest even if you were attacking with a bayonet...

As the dining out grew closer, we heard more and more out of the other seminar group about the dining out and their displeasure that they were being "forced" as part of the RSC program to attend something like that.   Late in the week, I was asked by the Staff College's commandant to be the president of the mess, and one of my seminar mates was asked to be the vice.  The din out of the other seminar group reached a crescendo at that point, and the youngest member of their group, a major who had originally been assigned to my seminar group but had been moved to the other group to "balance" the seminars, came to me and said "Hey, man, our group is freaking out over here.  Nobody except me wants to go to the dining out.  They all think that your seminar is going to embarrass them and make them feel stupid."

"Have any of them been to a dining out before?"

"Thats the thing. Not really. One or two, maybe."

"So, lemme get this straight.  They've never been to a dining out, but none of them want to go because they just know they're going to be picked on and embarrassed?"

"Yeah, basically."

"Uhh, ok. Let me get back to you."

So Mr Vice, Ernie Manzano (yo, Fastburner, drop me a line if you're reading this!), and I put our heads together to come up with a solution, and as a result we setup a time to go downstairs and talk to the other seminar group about the dining out.  I figured that since I'm the president of the mess, I'd better head off the problems ASAFP.   

Before we went down there down there, I stopped and talked to the commandant about the dining out.  I explained to him the rumbling I'd heard out of the other seminar group, and my plan to talk to them directly and address their concerns, but that I needed to know where he stands on the whole thing so I can frame my discussion with them in terms of the "official position" of the staff college.  He, too, had heard the rumblings and had, individually, laid down the law with each of the seminar members who had expressed their distress in what he called "having to get dressed up and eat with everybody in a formal setting."  The school's basic stance was "The dining out is a part of your region staff college curriculum. A non-optional part.  You will go, you will eat, you will participate."  The commandant's closing words to me were: "Major, I'm sure you'll make this work."

With that in my back pocket, Ernie and I went down to meet with the other group.  I felt like a fox walking into a hen house when we went in their seminar room.  I swear these people expected us to breathe fire on them or to go all "Full Metal Jacket" with them.  Ernie and I sat down and for about 30 minutes chatted with them about their concerns.   They all had questions, but it all boiled down to the basic gist of their perception that our seminar was "younger" and "more military" and thus we "intimidated" them and they expected that we (Mr. Vice and I, and by extension, our seminar mates) would use the dining out as an opportunity to make fun of them and embarrass them.   Ernie and I emphatically assured them that:
a) We had ZERO interest in picking on anybody, no matter what seminar they were in;
b) the mess rules are the mess rules. Even the commandant was not immune to them;
c) like everything else at staff college, we would be doing out best to make the dining out a learning experience for everybody, not some kind of wacky opportunity to stand on our heads and bark at the moon (but I couldn't vouch for our more experienced members, or our AF brethren who might be there, attempting to inject levity into the evening... ) 

In the end, I said "Look, I'm the President of the Mess. Ultimately, I control how the evening goes or does not go.  If it looks like someone in the mess is trying to make fun of you guys or is unduly picking on you folks, I have the ability to squelch that immediately, and you can bet I will.  Now, if there is some good natured fun between some of our mess members (there was a long-standing yet good-natured rivalry between the commandant and our CAP-USAF RAP guy, and you just knew these two were going to be watching each other like a hawk for the first transgression of the rules and their associated points of order. I planned to let their little sideshow serve as the main source of entertainment, thus sparing the rest of us, mostly..) and it spills over, that's one thing, but I'll do my best to make sure that the rules are followed, the mess doesn't turn into a free-for-all, and that everybody has a good time with this."

With their confidence somewhat assuaged, we went to the dining out the next night and had a *really* good time.  One of my seminar mates, then-Major Stan Skrabut of NY Wing (Now Colonel Stan Skrabut, the WY Wing commander), was the first to "break the rules" and visit the bowl of social grace.  Behind the scenes, Stan had graciously volunteered to "break the ice" and serve as the sacrificial lamb.  Nearly all of our seminar mates followed suit during the course of the evening, and the big break thru came when one of the other seminar members asked Mr. Vice for permission to address the President of the Mess and made a point of order about one of the RSC staff member's flaunting of the rules.  That really turned things on its ear, and while 1 or 2 of the other seminar members did wind up visiting the grog bowl, I made sure that the visits were for legitimate reasons, that we didn't make it a "chore," and that everything surrounding it was "good natured" not "mean spirited." (the commandant and our CAP-USAF RAP officer's little feud, well, I let that be a little more caustic as long as they didn't drag anybody else into the fray... By half way thru the evening, I threatened them both with having to drink the whole darn bowl without cups or a ladle and they both toned it down a little...)

The entire seminar came to me later and thanked me for making the dining out far, far more interesting and enjoyable than they had envisioned it could be (go figure!) and for taking the time to address their concerns and to be sensitive to their needs. (I wanted to back to my dorm room and watch the Crying Game or something at that point. I somehow wound up at the club instead...)

I was amazed, however, at the earlier mob mentality of this group of adults.  Nearly all were over 40, most were over 50 (save the poor guy who'd been switched, who was younger than me!) and here they were like a bunch of middle schoolers getting all frantic about something that they even admitted they didn't know a thing about, but had "heard all about from others."  Stories ALWAYS get better in the telling and get massive embellishments, and of course they only heard what they considered to be "the bad stuff" and keyed on it.  It took an inordinate amount of our time and a lot of discussion to reverse this attitude, an attitude that was based in mis-information and fear, not fact and reason.

Having read this discussion, I swear that many of the posters here could have fit in well with that seminar group.

I've never been to a dining out with a toilet bowl as a grog bowl.  Even knowing that said toilet bowl was probably "new in the box" when it was deployed,  I'd be pretty disappointed in going to an event that had to lower itself to that level of crassness.   

However, it seems that someone here has either been to that particular dining out, or heard from someone who had been, and has now painted all dining outs with that broad brush.   Of all the dinging outs in the world that feature a grog bowl, probably less than 1% use a toilet bowl for said bowl. Yet now people are all keyed up on that micro facet.

Then we get into the "hazing" aspects.   Several posters have alluded to this, and I'll come right out and say it:  What next, will giving a cadet a gig at inspection be considered "hazing" if its within earshot of another cadet?  Will we eliminate drill and ceremonies since, clearly, the cadet who screws up and faces right when commanded to face left is embarrassed and made to feel ashamed and demeaned and thusly is "hazed?"  Where does it end?  "You promoted Cadet Jones to Airman First because he's completed all his requirements, but I haven't completed my requirements and I'm not getting promoted and all my flight mates want to know why and its demeaning to me that I didn't get promoted, even though its my own darn fault that I am unable to pass the chapter 2 leadership test... so by not promoting me, you're hazing me and I'm filing a complaint.."  (Yeah, here we go, Little League "everybody's a winner" rules to take effect in 3...2...1...)

My unit has two old steel pot helmet liners in the supply locker.  They're painted "safety purple."  Forgot your flight cap or your BDU cap?  You clearly need a replacement for the evening.  Here you go cadet.

Many have said that's hazing.  In my unit, we know it to be "a corrective reminder." 

Nobody makes fun of the guy with the purple helmet liner on his head, but the guy with the purple helmet liner on his head is sufficiently chastened to remember his bloody cover next time.  (we had a period back about 6 years ago where cadets were forgetting their covers *repeatedly* and it seemed that the usual corrective actions were not getting thru to people sufficiently.  Cadets would fail inspection for a lack of cover, say, but that was not an "immediate correction" since their inspection failure might not factor into something until next month's promotion board.  The corrective action wound up sufficiently separated from the infraction as to not provide a immediate reminder to the cadet on the order of "Hey, bonehead, remember your darn hat." Someone came up with the idea of the helmets, someone else painted them a safety color, and *poof* our incidence of forgotten covers, or at the very least, the incidence of a cadet repeatedly forgetting his cover, dropped to near zero.  Nowadays, I seldom see the helmets out there, and if I do, its not on the same cadet's noggin over and over..)

The bottom line there is that there are rules.  Your mess rules, uniform rules, etc.  And when you violate the rules, you get a corrective action.  Anybody with kids knows that for a corrective action to have an effect on changing a particular behavior, it must occur in close proximity to the incorrect behavior else its effect is blunted by time and memory.

Anybody with time in the military knows the value and effect of the so-called "On the spot correction."  You see some Airman who fails to salute an officer who walks by, it does almost zero good to find that airman's first sergeant and tell the first sergeant, who then finds the flight chief, who turns around to the individual's shop NCOIC and eventually the airman gets told, later that same day "hey, Airman, you forgot to salute an officer at 10am..." and he's like "I did? Oh well, whatever.."    Instead, you go over to said Airman, say "Hey, doofus, why didn't you salute that officer right there?" and hopefully he goes "Oh, gosh, I totally didn't see that guy. I'll keep a sharper eye out next time..."

Those are corrective actions to infractions, not hazing.  Its a thin line and CAP has managed to make the line very indistinct, somewhat curvy, and oh, yeah, some folks can't even see the line 'cuz they painted it with invisible paint in several sections.

Again, properly done and with the appropriate conditions and some checks and balances in place, a grog bowl is not necessarily a bad thing.

For the record: too many people think that grog must be the worlds most vile, nasty concoction to be true grog. I'm here to tell you that's a load of BS. 

The reason I think that kind of a notion got started was that in some of the "Billy Mitchell/Hap Arnold" messes of the olden days, officers were far, far more hard-drinking than people are today. Most carried a flask of some sort with a little "warm up," and I've read of some mess functions where all the officers emptied their own flask into the grog bowl, thus creating a true amalgam of grog that was probably pretty disgusting tasting and potentially harmful if you had more than one or two fingers of it.  Not because of any other vile ingredients but just because mixing gin, scotch, vodka, cognac, bitters, whiskey, etc, into a bowl with no other "buffer" like fruit juice or something  is going to be one hell of a wicked concoction all on its own... Later, when unit dinners where more formal and sponsored by the unit, they probably elected to make grog separate from the contents of the flasks, and still did the whole "a pint of this, a pint of that, a pint of this other thing.." to create a larger bowl.

Since we have rules about consumption of alcohol in front of a substantial proportion of our membership, unlike the military who did not have any similar prohibition, when introducing the formal military dinner, which generally included a "bowl of social grace" for rule transgressions, someone probably thought "OK the stuff in the military is pretty heinously concocted, so how can I replicate a bad-tasting alcoholic mix with no alcohol? I know! I'll add all kinds of gross stuff like relish or mustard or cheese whiz or cheesy poofs.. Yeah, that's the ticket!"

I helped make a grog at the ACA's birthday ball back in April.  Captain Stanford and I ran over to the commissary and loaded up on stuff, but we did it with some themes and tried to avoid making it gross:

• Gatorade Rain: If it ain't rainin', we ain't trainin'!
• a ziploc of crushed chocolate graham crackers: "The volcanic sands of Iwo Jima, in honor of our Marine contingent.."
• a small container of honey: "Motor oil from the deuce and a half parked outside."
• a ziplock containing a brand new and washed boot sock soaked in a mixture of water and sugar and then baked to make it stiff and hard: "One of my socks from the last road march. Ewwwww..."
• a small baggie of ground Parmesan cheese: "Sand from Iraq that came out of my boots"
• Red strand licorice: "A length of ethernet cable to honor my signal corps background!"
• a container of liquid that looked suspiciously like sweat, but was really just water with a couple teabags floated in it to "yellow it up" from a distance: "Sweat mopped up from the deck after the last quarterdecking session.."
• a small ziplock containing multi-colored "goldfish" crackers: "In honor of our Naval contingent.."

There 1-2 other things in there, but nothing of any note that was "gross" or disgusting.  We tried to make the pomp and circumstance surrounding the bowl A facet, but not the ONLY facet, of the evening's event.

BTW, I'm not suggesting that "hazing is OK," but I am suggesting that "following the rules gets you further and with less annoying features than not following the rules." (Hehehe, I'm gonna get crap for this, but maybe we should talk about this in a safety context: "Can't follow the rules of safety and keep hurting people and breaking things?  OK, EVERYBODY gets to drink from the bowl of Safety Down Day!"  Talk about hazing!)

[NIN]

Oh, forgot to mention: The people who had to visit the bowl reported that grog was actually very tasty and not at all gross.

[Nathan]

Good post.

I've never been to a grog before, but really, calling it hazing might be gonig a bit far. It's been said before, but from I understand about a grog bowl, it's not really that much different from a game.

You lose the game, you drink from the grog.

You lose a question at a quiz bowl, your team loses points.

You screw up a drill competition, you may lose your team honor flight.

You screw up PT, you may not get promoted.

You get your uniform wrong, you may be corrected.

You don't pass the GES test, you will not go on the mission.

Etc.

Any of the above consequences can be considered humiliating, and, in my opinion, are MUCH more humiliating than drinking from the grog bowl, because at least the grog bowl is all in good fun. The rest of this are things that actually make you look inadequate in some aspect, and shows actual failure to everyone in the area.

I don't know. There's just something weird to me about there being an argument against the grog, when the grog's ultimate consequence is so trivial compared to the failure and humiliation that someone is likely to feel when experiencing the consequence of any of the above vital aspects of Civil Air Patrol.

YMMV

[wuzafuzz]

Bravo NIN!

IMHO, some of the posts I've seen on CAP Talk are far closer to hazing than a trip to the (properly managed) grog bowl!

[Eclipse]

Bravo NIN!

IMHO, some of the posts I've seen on CAP Talk are far closer to hazing than a trip to the (properly managed) grog bowl!

Unfortunately, the amount of thought given to these issues exhibited here is >not< typical of many of our members.  If it was, the concerns raised here would not be as legitimate as they are.

[a2capt]

Another viewpoint, perhaps in line with the starting post:

Part of the grog bowl also has been that Mr. Vice, once declaring it open for business, had to take the first hit from it. 

the first unit level banquet I attended, they had this grog bowl ..

It was about 30% 'solids', appeared to have 'worms' floating in it. (some dry snack food turned really bloated and squishy), the then even smelled bad. Some of the cadets that got sent to it were pretty visibly disgusted. No projectiles came from it, though darn close.

But it defiantly quelled my enthusiasm to participate in anything because they appeared to be utterly nitpicking about infractions to send people to it. They also appeared to be making the decision of whom to send vs. who got to sing a song or 'fly' around the room, etc- based on personal opinions.

The second unit level banquet I attended, of course having a 'real life' out side of our fun, time consuming volunteer organization, I had to arrive at our banquet a bit after the starting time. A little ways into the event after that, out of the blue (sea of blue), I'm hearing my name - and the bowl, after already seeing some other cadets go and have a somewhat difficult time with the contents of the cup. The cups were not clear after being drank from.  Well, after already being in a somewhat precarious position with the unit leadership, whom were ultimately rooting for the bowl 'punishment', I was not going to make any more reasoning for retribution available to anyone. I went, reported to the bowl, addressed the mess, used the ladle to get as much 'broth' as I could leaving behind what to me looked way way worse than the year before- in the bowl. One huge gulp with my eyes closed and I nearly put it back in the cup, the next one had eyes wide open beaming at the head table as I again nearly wretched it up, and the third last gulp nearly blew out of me all over the floor in front of me.  I had a stomach issue for most of the next two weeks after that. Whatever was in there was defiantly not intended on being mixed north of the taste buds.

Interestingly, there were no more calls to the grog that evening, that I recall and I pretty much did hardly any participating out of 'fear'.

Third time - I got called on the carpet for having a video camera rolling random bits and having it on during one of the bits where the head table got a bit red faced. I had to 'fly' around the room and sing YMCA, which I totally sucked at.

... fourth unit level banquet I got promoted to Capt' and got senior of the year award at the unit level. Pay off for sticking it out? ;-) The grog bowl was pretty nasty again, they seemed to use most of 20 different cans and bottles of ingredients to mix it.

Onto the firth one- and make no mistake, I and several other senior members had expressed concern about this grog bowl tradition by now, as it seemed to be getting worse and dampening participation.  I managed to just stay off the radar.  Now keep in mind that the senior cadets had been the ones doing this mixture, but this year a previous cadet not of our unit, but now part of our unit as a newly joined senior member became involved in guiding the grog bowl construction for that year, and when time came for Mr. Vice to test it.. sometime in the process of the second swig, he had to leave the room. Head for the head.. then sometime later the next 'victim' is now the master of the creation himself. He didn't even make  the second swig. Gone, out of the room, had to change uniforms after that too, because when he came back in much later ,he had changed.  One more cadet went and, also - had to bail out of the room. No one blew it on the floor.

Ok, so things got out of hand. But when the first person wasn't able to hack it, it should have been put an end too. It was tit for tat when the creator couldn't hack it either, and that should have been the end of it, but to send yet another cadet to it? They finally got the message. It had floating salad croutons in it that had expanded so much it was hard to swallow, it was also foul smelling and dark black.

The following year there was going to be no grog, until the very morning of when there was outcry from some of the cadet leadership who seemed to forget the events of the year prior. However, what prevailed was pretty darn surprising. We had them lining up to drink it afterwards. Became a mixture of soda for each facet of the unit, the cadets they like sugar, Mt. Dew got dumped in, the seniors, well, most try to loose weight, put in Diet Coke, then there's the energy fiends, dump in a Red bull, but cadets love punch, dump in two liters of Hawaiian Punch. etc, add some sprinkles for fun, dumped in full bag of cake sprinkles. ... and some other liquids, then dumped in a box of twinkies to finish it off.

Can you say Sugar Shockers? Woohoo!

It was genuinely more fun. I have to say that.

[SARMedTech]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  
  
• When discussing hazing scenarios, context is everything, and information is power.  What may look bad on the surface turns out not to be that much of a stretch when viewed in context, and vice versa.
  
  
• Bad leadership is not the same thing as hazing.  Someone can do something really stupid and use astonishingly bad judgement, but that doesn't mean hazing has occurred.

With those thoughts in mind, let's revisit the opening question: Is the grog bowl tradition hazing?

Does a grog bowl cause people to suffer?  Is it cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful?

Think about those words.  Those are strong words.  Very serious acts are attached to those words.  Is drinking fruit punch with goldfish in it really harmful or abusive?

Now, keep in mind, context is everything.  There are grog mixtures that are less harmful than most energy drinks kids drink these days.  Then there are grog mixtures that make people vomit.  They're not the same thing.

If the grog mixture has paper clips, gin and Ex-Lax in it, and we're feeding it to 12-year-olds, is it cruel, abusive, or harmful?

Ah, now we may arrive at a different answer.

So it's not so clear.

Just read the handful of replies in this thread; reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes hazing, and that's an issue.  It's an issue with the definition, and an issue with the training CAP provides to its senior members.

Personally, if it's done in good fun and contains no harmful ingredients, I think calling it hazing is inappropriate.  But, like a lot of traditions, I think it's easy for otherwise well-meaning people to make it into something that can cause people to suffer.

Which is why I said in my first post that a grog bowl is not, on the surface, evidence of hazing.

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

[jb512]

First of all, anybody who puts harmful substances in a Grog Bowl should be shot.  Anybody who puts alcohol in a Grog Bowl at a function involving cadets should also be shot.  Their judgement is so demonstrably poor as to be beyond rehabilitation.

That being said, the good-natured fun of a Grog Bowl is a part of the formal dining experience, and should not be denied to cadets... or officers for that matter.

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing.   If you think so, I have to question your judgement.

And... you know what I think should be done to people with bad judgement!   

Best reply I've seen so far.  I'd even add that if you're not hoping to be called to the grog then there's something wrong with ya.

[NIN]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

[Nathan]

While there still seems to be horror stories about the grog bowl, it seems that those stories (ie the story of several cadets throwing up and such) seen to be the exception, and not the norm. We can't ban any activity that CAN potentially get out of hand, because in CAP, the list would force us to shut down the cadet programs altogether. It seems that this activity is a lot like, oh, a Project X, or an obstacle course, where cadets, if they act unprofessional, may end up doing harm, but the idea is still all in fun and if properly implemented is nothing but entertainment.

[SARMedTech]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

That is a profoundly ignorant comparison, a bit like comparing horse shoes and hand grenades. There was a discussion going on about the legality and ethics of hazing, going to the grog in particular. In the last year, I have run on two EMS calls where young fraternity wannabes drank a concoction out of a bowl (same college both times) and while it contained no alcohol, its contents did make them quite sick. That, oh Colonel, my Colonel, is battery and charges were pressed in both situations. I know this because I was brought in to testify as to the effects I witnessed after the pledges drank whatever it was. In one case, there was a small amount of propylene glycol. While I dont think that SMs would do this to cadets or cadets to each other, stranger things have happened.

[jb512]

Aside from that, hazing, regardless of how dangerous or not dangerous it may or may not be is illegal in most states. So aside from the possible 2b'ing you might get, you could very well also find yourself on the end of breaking a state law. Look at assault: you can commit assault with an empty gun if the person your pointing it at does not know its unloaded since assault is generally defined as any action "which would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of receiving a battery." Therefor, if the cadets do not know there is nothing harmful, sickening or gross in the grog, and have an apprehension that they may become ill as a result of drinking it, it is hazing and therefor illegal, assuming you live in a state where anti-hazing laws have been enacted.

Oh, for crying out loud, go join the bloody Boy Scouts where _EVERYBODY_ is a winner.

Next thing you know, you're gonna claim that since cadets don't know what to expect at encampment before they go there, THATS hazing or assault...

Stop now.

That is a profoundly ignorant comparison, a bit like comparing horse shoes and hand grenades. There was a discussion going on about the legality and ethics of hazing, going to the grog in particular. In the last year, I have run on two EMS calls where young fraternity wannabes drank a concoction out of a bowl (same college both times) and while it contained no alcohol, its contents did make them quite sick. That, oh Colonel, my Colonel, is battery and charges were pressed in both situations. I know this because I was brought in to testify as to the effects I witnessed after the pledges drank whatever it was. In one case, there was a small amount of propylene glycol. While I dont think that SMs would do this to cadets or cadets to each other, stranger things have happened.

And we all know that some college pranks have gotten that far out of hand.

What we are defending is an old tradition and practice of camaraderie.  When properly supervised and performed, as all cadet activities should be, there is no need to ban the practice because of some college kids getting out of hand.

My guess is that those were fraternity events and not a traditional military ceremony.

[Major Carrales]

There is an element of stupidity that must be mitigated.  I was at a get together once with a friend who was starved for attention.

I was not a drinker at the time, but my friend was quite into fitting in by drinking large amounts of anything they would give him.  I had gravitated to another part of the party...chiefly to pursue an attractive female's interest...and when I returned to the original scene, my friend was downing a swill made by one of our less scrupulous acquaintances.

He drank it.  Another friend of mine, pulled me aside to the kitchen where he attempted to get a laugh out of me by showing me what he was drinking.  It seemed that they had mixed several alcoholic spirits, including tequila and various others, with some household chemicals, including small amounts Ajax and Miracle Grow plant food.

I was not amused.  This seems to be common, a sober person among the Philistines outraged at what was going to likely be a sad thing (I guess it was my LOTT in life to be in those situations)

We left.  Needless to say, my friend, began to feel sick and vomited several times on the way back to Kinsgville from Corpus Christi.  I didn't know much about alcoholic induced vomiting and probably should have taken him to a hospitial...but as I said, I didn't know much about it at the time.  

My wife gets annoyed when I recall every place he vomited when we drive the route to Corpus some 10+ years later.

My friend learned a lesson, as did I.  Stupidity is a potential killer.

Now, as to grogs.  What can I say?  If it is benign tradition and controlled, so be it.  If it is stupidity's child, let it die.

[lordmonar]

I say again...it is military tradition with a proper place and proper application.

As in all things.....any thing can be taken to extremes and can humiliate, injure and sometimes kill.

But just as in anything we do in CAP, the Military, or real life we can still have some fun with out any of that.

Common sense is all that it takes.

[baronet68]

...when the first person wasn't able to hack it, it should have been put an end too. It was tit for tat when the creator couldn't hack it either...

At every grog event I've attended, the first point of order I bring up is that the creator(s) of the grog need to drink from the grog to demonstrate proper grog technique and show everyone that the grog is not harmful.

Never had a Vice or President who disagreed and having a reputation for calling that point of order means that those charged with mixing a grog will exercise some common sense.


Regarding toilet bowls, I've never seen a grog served from a toilet bowl, but our squadron did have a chocolate-based grog (served in a punch bowl) that was sitting next to a un-soiled toilet sporting a plunger.  For effect, the punch bowl was 'garnished' with toilet paper.

[star1151]

My guess is that those were fraternity events and not a traditional military ceremony.

And sometimes those two things are more alike than you'd probably care to admit.