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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NHQ Uniform Committee
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Author Topic: NHQ Uniform Committee  (Read 138368 times)
LtCol White
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« on: November 14, 2007, 02:15:02 PM »

I have been tasked to lead the NHQ Uniform Committee to resolve our uniform issues and also revise CAPM39-1 so that it accurately addresses all uniforms, presents clear information, and doesn't confuse or contradict.

I have been asked to do this paying special attention to the "cost to the member" concerns. I have culled many of the issues from the uniform threads here. As we proceed, I will post information on here for feedback and any proposed new items will undergo a wear test.

If you have credible ideas and suggestions, please post them here. Please avoid thread drifts and sillyness on this thread. This IS your chance to contribute feedback on the uniforms as so many have complained about NHQ not seeking info from the membership.

All legitimate suggestions will be given serious review and consideration with the understanding that it is NOT possible to please everyone and be all things to everyone.

I look forward to receiving your ideas.

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LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.
RogueLeader
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 02:27:02 PM »

Go to darker tapes- like those for the utility uniform, that can be used on any and all uniforms that require tapes- BDU's, BBDU's and (eventually) ABU's, same for rank insignia.  Tapes would still say "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and the rank would still  be silver and gold, no subdued.

Grey nameplate for Seniors, Blue for Cadets- 3 line:
Civil Air Patrol
United States Air Force Auxiliary
Last Name

Eliminate grooming standards for TPU- while like to see TPU gone, too much $$$ invested by members.  Also go to grey slides.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 02:28:51 PM »

Lets not make changes to JUST MAKE CHANGES!

So Colonel.......what ideas do YOU have.  You have read MOST of our ideas here already!

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alamrcn
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Posts: 641
Unit: NCR-MN-047

Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 02:31:42 PM »

Congradulations!  National must think very highly of you to have bestowed such a very important and difficult task - GOOD LUCK!

I'll only drop one comment as to lessoning the cost to members:
I think we have ALL agreed that the "exclusive" to Vanguard doesn't help in this particular matter. I know there were concerns about quality and consistancy, along with the money Nat'l now gets from Vanguard sales... but this might help the "top" priority.

Thanks for yout service, Colonel. It'll be fun to get a front row view as things progress... do you take bribes?!

-Ace


Ok, just one quick opinion....
EVERYTHING off the BDU shoulders, Wing patches to the left breast pocket, Unit/Activity patches to the right breast. All quals/ratings should be above the tape as SMALL badges only, no full patches. Basically get it down to how the USAF did it with the ODs originally. Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 02:42:01 PM by alamrcn » Logged

 

Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 02:37:18 PM »

May the good Lord have mercy on your soul, sir!

One thing to address would be the number of inconsistencies, ambiguities, and omissions.  I would suggest that once a new draft is in place, it be placed into a website for comment so that these issues can be vetted before publication.

As an example, the cadet cloth grade table - 6-11, seems to be an unfinished graphic:



It does not contain the measurements, CAP cutout, or the outline of the blue cloth.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 02:39:40 PM »

I would also suggest adding photographs as a supplement to the diagrams, and it might be better to use mannequins instead of real people in the example photos.
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JC004
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 02:47:49 PM »

Wow...what did you do wrong?!  You must have really pissed off the General to get such an impossible task.   ;)

Anyway...thank you for soliciting feedback here.  I actually have a list somewhere of my uniform plan...I just don't know where it is at the moment.  I shall look.  Do you have any time lines for this?

Question:  are there going to be REPLACEMENT pictures?  PLEASE get replacement pictures.
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MIKE
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 02:48:20 PM »

For authorized AF style uniforms basically copy and paste the relevant details from AFI 36-2903 to get CAPM 39-1 current with minor modifications in terms of distinctive insignia as appropriate, but placement of similar insignia should not differ from the AFI.  Example: placement of the specialty badge or commanders badge in relation to the nametag for male or female personel.

Have to make sure everything is very clear and very specific.  Don't say one thing somewhere and then something a little different somewhere else for the same item.... Unless you are updating other supporting regulations i.e. CAPR 39-3 at the same time, don't differ from them.

Make insignia placement on the aviator shirts the same as the AF shirts/blouses.
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Mike Johnston
LtCol White
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 02:54:06 PM »

As I stated, this is being done with the "cost to the member" in the forefront. There will be no changes for the sake of change.

2 issues at the head are to get standarization of insignia for the Service Uniform with the Corporate Uniform, and the authorizaton and phase in of the ABU. Insigna for the Service uniform would also be the same to be worn on the new USAF service coat once authorized and adopted.

In addition to the revision of CAPM 39-1, we will also look at other outstanding uniform items that have not been enacted such as the cloth flightsuit name badges. We will also review the USAF uniform closet and evaluate items not presently authorized for wear by CAP but would be of value to our members such as the severe cold weather gear.

As we proceed and I am able to assemble samples of proposals, I will post them here for comment and review. Again, all serious feedback will be given consideration by the committee.

I have asked Capt Mike Kieloch and Capt Judy Lavalley to be part of this committe and they have graciously accepted. I report to Col Tom Todd who reports to Gen Courter on this.

It is our goal to address the concerns of the members over our uniforms, standaridze the closet, maintain a professional appearance, and minimize the cost where possible. Please keep in mind that all changes must be reviewed and approved by HQ CAP, HQ CAP/USAF and HQ USAF.


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LtCol David P. White CAP   
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Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.
MIKE
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 02:55:04 PM »

One thing to address would be the number of inconsistencies, ambiguities, and omissions.  I would suggest that once a new draft is in place, it be placed into a website for comment so that these issues can be vetted before publication.

Take the current manual and Wiki it... Then I'll go in and fix whats broke.  Problems solved.
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Mike Johnston
MIKE
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 03:04:39 PM »

Another thing:  Bring back the phaseout date attachment that was in the back of the 1997 edition, and update it with changes as appropriate. 
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 03:12:31 PM »

Some changes to be considered for the TPU - ahem, corporate service dress uniform:

Modify grooming standards to allow neatly trimmed beards.

Dark blue sleeve braid instead of the gaudy silver.

Keep the hard rank on the jacket; gray epaulets on the shirt. Or, bring back the blue epaulets with CAP letters on them.

By allowing a dark blue bow tie, removing the nameplate and adding mini medals - you got yourself a corporate formal equivalent of the AF-style mess dress.

Service cap: I don't mind the silver chinstrap to distinguish CAP officers on the corporate service dress.

Allow military ribbons on the corporates.

Just my two cents' worth... before taxes take them away.
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
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alamrcn
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Unit: NCR-MN-047

Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 03:12:42 PM »

standarization of insignia for the Service Uniform with the Corporate Uniform. (cut) Insigna for the Service uniform would also be the same to be worn on the new USAF service coat once authorized and adopted.
Sounds good!

Quote
the authorizaton and phase in of the ABU.
For now, BDUs are cheaper... but as accessability quickly decreases it will be a problem. Why prolong the inevitable - getting it done now instead of later WILL save money... GREAT!

Quote
such as the cloth flightsuit name badges.
I'm not a pilot and even I say, "YES!"

I'm glad that the USAF uniform closet (love the term) will continue to be a model for Civil Air Patrol uniforms. Looks like you and your team are off to a good start with a possitive focus!

-Ace
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Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2007, 03:15:26 PM »

What a great opportunity! 

IMHO, I would like to see the changes kept to a minimum, but have CAP 39-1 updated and clarified with additional detail.  Complete diagrams for every uniform combination and a head to toe, full body photo of each uniform being properly worn. 

Here are a couple of ideas:

1.  Maintain the current command patch.  Even with the US, its better than forcing a change, again.  IMHO, it doesn't infer that the name of the organization is USCAP, but rather that CAP is a US entity.  Just as an example, the Pentagon Police have "US" on their patch, but not in their name.

2.  Minus the double breasted jacket and politics, the corporate service dress is a sharp looking uniform.  Given the money shelled out by members and its popularity (outside of this group - just look at the NSC photos) I can't see it going away. 

Finally, lets get 39-1 updated and stable.  We have so many uniform choices that we should be able to do without various policy letters, etc that make 39-1 inaccurate.

Best of luck to you sir!
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captrncap
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Posts: 181

« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2007, 03:18:02 PM »

I would like to see one AF Blue and one Corporate Uniform dress uniform (for those not meeting height/weight AND grooming standards).

I don’t mind the TPU with the addition of the “CAP” to the blue slides.

A moratorium on uniform changes to corporate designs (not AF since they control that uniform) for at least 3 years from approval (Emergency changes only –would need to be defined). This would only include items such as pants, hats, nametags, etc. not specialty badges, etc.

These would carry over to flight suits and BDUs.

Recognition of Unit Commanders on BDUs (both) with a cloth Command Badge with the same placement as the dress uniform (cannot wear the ES patch concurrently).

Darker nametapes (as noted above) for current and anticipated BDU changes.

Black t-shirts only for BDU as many other “brown” colors exist.

Clearer definition of BDU footwear – i.e. what is a combat boot/jungle boot, wavier can be granted by unit commander for foot related issues.

Remove the plastic encased and replace with cloth for all Flight Suits.

Clarify “safety vest” – orange,  orange reflective or just reflective (green, etc)
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jaybird512
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2007, 03:21:39 PM »

Yes, cost to the member is a a very important issue.  I finally ordered my USCAP nametag for my white shirt and when it arrived, the letters starting coming out the same day that we were ditching the "U.S.", so yes it is aggravating.

While cost should be #1, updating and standardizing should be #2.  As you said, add the cloth nametags to the flight suit, but please have them look at the smurf blue BDU tapes and insignia.  The AF cut them off years ago and we never did the same.  Sure, they want us to be distinguishable, but we can do that and not look so cheesy.

Other than that, just standardization between the 43 different uniform options would be nice.  Maybe get rid of the white/grays and keep the TPU instead.

Keep the TPU the way it is.  Don't add and CAP's or anything to it; plain and simple is best.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 04:07:02 PM by jaybird512 » Logged
sandman
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351

« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2007, 03:22:24 PM »

I would suggest implementing metal rank insignia on the US Air Force style uniform. Modify the metal rank with a red "A" such as the US Coast Guard Auxiliary uses (no problem according to Vanguard reps). Modify sew-on rank as well.

Add a universal left sleeve (coats, shirts, sweaters, jackets, BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc) patch to further modify the AF style uniform (such as the "overseas" squadron patch). This is for a very visible difference. One patch only, cadets and officers, that way uniforms can be passed down throughout CAP and not just in one wing.

Keep grey slides on blue shirt, sweater (looks sharp). However, I would be highly in favor of returning the blue slides.

Next, return "CAP" cutouts to the lapel instead of "US".

Add (return) the three line grey nameplate to the coat instead of the AF silver nameplate.

Authorize immediate phase in of the ABU (or whatever new pattern comes online for the USAF) as an optional purchase for at least a ten year period afterwhich the ABU is mandated.

Finally, dark blue or just go with regular olive drab nametapes for BDU, BBDU, ABU. Consider white, grey, or red lettering on the nametapes. Consider just using same color as regular Air Force for nametapes including subdued unit patches and qualification badges. The rational is that it is relatively difficult to pass yourself off as a real military member these days anyway without getting caught quickly.

Implement these changes for the TPU (for fuzzies and "out of standards" individuals) and the AF uniform for, well, uniformity.

Good luck!

v/r
LT
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MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
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Trung Si Ma
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2007, 03:33:45 PM »

Looking at the reduction of acquisition / maintenance costs to the members is certainly commendable.  Looking for uniformity is also good.

My suggestion is to eliminate the gray trousers / slacks. 

The corporate uniform with the white aviator shirt and AF Blue slacks in the 15 Mar 06 change letter is not only an adequate replacement for the aviator shirt uniform listed in CAPM 39-1, but it does provide the building block for the Corporate Service Uniform.

Replacing the multi-hued gray slacks with a specified product such as Khaki Levi Dockers, which are both color consistant and nationally available would be conducive to uniformity and would still provide a professional, business casual, appearance to both the Blazer Uniform and to the Golf Shirt combination.  Selecting khaki as the color for the Golf Shirt combination will more than likely limit its wear to more administrative functions.

I would also formally approve, by wing commander signed letter, the use of khaki shorts in specified hot weather activities such as glider flight activities.  Again, I would recommend that a specific maker of the shorts be specified, preferably something that is nationally distributed like the 5.11 academy series.
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capchiro
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2007, 03:39:34 PM »

I guess I'm old fashioned, but if I could have my druthers, I would lose the shiny silver on the wings, CAP, rank, buckles, etc., and go back to the more subdued matt finish.  I would also lose the Corfams and go to shoes that require shining, but last 4 times as long.  Just my own personal ideas..   
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
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LtCol White
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2007, 03:43:45 PM »

We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.
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LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NHQ Uniform Committee
 


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