You know its HOT when...

[abysmal]

After standing at Parade rest for 5 minutes durring the change of command cerimony you have your first cadet pass out from the heat on the tarmack. And 4 minutes later you loose your 2nd one.

And it only got up to 126 degrees durring the daytime....

They just don't build cadets like they used to...

[Cmdbuddy]

You know you're not adequately supervising your cadets when...

[abysmal]

You know you're not adequately supervising your cadets when...

Good Try.
We had Wing staff there "supervising" the Group Staff who were supervising the Squadron Staff who were suppervising me while I was watching my cadets.

But you will be pleased to know that NEITHER of my cadets made it to the ground before I caught them!!
I saw the (bob & weave) and was "Johnny On The Spot" to take them out of formation.

Nevertheless everyone there was quite surprised at how few minutes it took them to drop out while not standing at attention...

Hydration was administered orally followed by copious quantities of Cake and Ice Creme to celebrate the change of command. The stricken Cadets bounced back in no time at all and were active participants in the rest of the evening's activities.

[Cmdbuddy]

Nice try.  Heat injuries can be prevented.  A few thoughts:

1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside?  Was it possible to hold it inside? 

2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues.  They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after.  Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside.  A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside. 

3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all.  Safety first.

4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention.  If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease.  Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.

5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long?  All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.

Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me.  After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries. 

[abysmal]

Nice try.  Heat injuries can be prevented.  A few thoughts:

1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside?  Was it possible to hold it inside? 

Utterly Impossible.
Our sqaudron meets in a 1953 Single Wide Trailer, that has room for about 75% of our Cadets and none of the seniors.
On nights when we have full attendance, we can not house everyone, let alone visitors.


2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues.  They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after.  Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside.  A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside. 

So you allow the cadets NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to take care of themselfs BEFORE they arrive at the meeting.
Meeting started promptly at 19:00 hrs.
They fell into formation, change of command began immeadiately and they started dropping within minutes.
When should they have rested???
When should they have been given a water break??

3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all.  Safety first.

For where WE live, it wasn't all that hot.
Not even close to the HIGH temps we have seen in the last week or two.
The cadets were IN the shade and I would guess the temps were in the low 100s, whereas everyone who lives here in Havasu was just in the HIGH 120's last week.
We live in a BRUTAL climate, its just a fact of life out here that everyone has to deal with, Cadets included.

4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention.  If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease.  Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.

Its a lovely idea to deblouse all of our female cadets.
But in this PC society, having HOT SWEATY young ladies with their clingly WET T-SHIRTS showing all of their femine physique is not a really good idea. We have choosen not to go that route...

5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long?  All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.

AWARDS.

Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me.  After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries. 

As a Combat Medic in the 82nd Airborne, I have seen MANY MANY MANY heat related injuries.
Its an inevitable fact of life when your working in High Heat and High Humidity.
And right now, we have quite a lot of both here in Havasu.
Sure, we could terminate all cadet activities from Mid June through Mid September while the temps at night never get below 100 degrees, but we don't.
We all learn to deal with the heat.

The example that I posted just goes to show you, that even people that live in it day in and day out, are still suseptable to it. The key is in how you deal with it after it happens.

[Cmdbuddy]

Nice try.  Heat injuries can be prevented.  A few thoughts:

1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside?  Was it possible to hold it inside? 

Utterly Impossible.
Our sqaudron meets in a 1953 Single Wide Trailer, that has room for about 75% of our Cadets and none of the seniors.
On nights when we have full attendance, we can not house everyone, let alone visitors.

I'll buy that


2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues.  They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after.  Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside.  A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside. 

So you allow the cadets NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to take care of themselfs BEFORE they arrive at the meeting.
Meeting started promptly at 19:00 hrs.
They fell into formation, change of command began immeadiately and they started dropping within minutes.
When should they have rested???
When should they have been given a water break??

Sorry, every change of command ceremony that I have witnessed has happened at the END of a meeting.  That's what I was assuming.  Maybe a safety briefing about heat related injuries is in store so that they know how to keep themselves safe prior to a meeting.

3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all.  Safety first.

For where WE live, it wasn't all that hot.
Not even close to the HIGH temps we have seen in the last week or two.
The cadets were IN the shade and I would guess the temps were in the low 100s, whereas everyone who lives here in Havasu was just in the HIGH 120's last week.
We live in a BRUTAL climate, its just a fact of life out here that everyone has to deal with, Cadets included.

I disagree.  You shouldn't have to deal with- you should adapt.

4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention.  If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease.  Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.

Its a lovely idea to deblouse all of our female cadets.
But in this PC society, having HOT SWEATY young ladies with their clingly WET T-SHIRTS showing all of their femine physique is not a really good idea. We have choosen not to go that route...

1.)Their tshirts shouldn't be form fitting.  2.) Shouldn't be an issue- deblousing them anyways. 3.) The cadets were at parade rest- they shouldn't have been looking around anyways 

5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long?  All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.

AWARDS

Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me.  After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries. 

As a Combat Medic in the 82nd Airborne, I have seen MANY MANY MANY heat related injuries.
Its an inevitable fact of life when your working in High Heat and High Humidity.
And right now, we have quite a lot of both here in Havasu.
Sure, we could terminate all cadet activities from Mid June through Mid September while the temps at night never get below 100 degrees, but we don't.
We all learn to deal with the heat.

Good, as a medic, I'm sure you're aware that heat injuries are preventable.  If we spent a few hours on them in First Responder Class, I'm sure you spent a lot more time learning about them.  So this isn't a matter of ignorance for you, it's a matter of not paying much attention to it.

I'm not suggesting that you suspend the activities.  The majority of my cadet career was in a squadron in New Orleans, LA.  You have dry heat.  We have wet heat.  Several years of that time was spent as Cadet Commander, and I had to modify our schedule during the hot months.  More time doing classwork work, more breaks during drill and stuff.  It's a safety issue, and it should be handled appropriately.

[PWK-GT]

Does anyone have boxing gloves........??

[PA Guy]

Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me.  After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries. 

Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity.  The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate.  Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.

[Cmdbuddy]

Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity.  The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate.  Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.

I don't think I've painted him as negligent.  I believe that it is something that needs to be talked about- how to prevent having cadets pass out in formation.  It happens a lot (as you said), and in my opinion, too often.  And having people pass out is not a good thing- parents don't like that too much.  So why not talk about the things that can be done to prevent it?  The things I have said don't only apply to him and his situation, but to everybody- whether it's a summer Encampment or a squadron meeting.  Thanks for your opinion, though, and welcome to the boards!

[shorning]

Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me.  After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries. 

Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity.  The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate.  Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.

Hmmmm....I've lived in AZ.  I think many (not all) CAP units/activities are under the assumption that just because they live there that they are used to the weather.  It's a dangerous situation.

Don't get your shorts in a bunch.  Neither was being very objective.  You have a problem with one of the posters, take it to PM.  I don't think we need to start hurling insults.  Personally, I think having an opinion is good.

[abysmal]

Sigh..
This was not were I had planned on this thread going.
But since it is.
Allow me to shed some additional light..

The Cadet's Parents where there as well.
I would say they were standing about 5-10ft from Junior when he started to do the Bob & Weave. They did nothing, I caught the Cadet the moment I saw him begin to move and walked him out of formation over to the shade where I sat him down and gave him plenty of ice water.

A couple minutes later one of the female cadets did the exact same thing. Once again daddy was right there and didn't see a thing, he was standing beside me, perhaps 5ft from his daughter. I saw her start to so the wobble and caught her and took her from the formation and over to the shade for the same treatment. A moment or two latter and the whole cerimony was over and the formation was dismissed.

This whole episode took all of maybe 10 minutes from start to finish.

The rest of the night the cadets spent in a variety of physical activities outside running and playing, just having a typical good time on a night off when there was nothing in particular to do enjoying a typically lovely evening here in Havasu. Though all of them were drenched in sweat by the end of the night there were NO other heat related injuries of any kind. They Ate, they Drank, they played hard and had a great time, and the 2 Wobblers joined right back in after a few minutes and also had no further relapses.

Based on that, in my oppinion both incidents were in fact not precipitated by the heat, so much as by the cadets NOT KNOWING how to stand in formation properly. My best gutt feeling is that this was a case of LOCKED KNEES, and not a directly related Heat injury.

Neither of the affected cadets displayed any of the classic sighs of Heat Stroke. In both cases recovery was near instant, and both returned to FULL levels of normal cadet activity shortly thereafter.

[ladyreferee]

Those darn locked knees show up at concerts as well even in the dead of winter in Wisconsin.... the choir director is always telling the kids new to choir about the child who fell off the risers from the back row. It was not a pretty sight!

[Cmdbuddy]

Based on that, in my oppinion both incidents were in fact not precipitated by the heat, so much as by the cadets NOT KNOWING how to stand in formation properly. My best gutt feeling is that this was a case of LOCKED KNEES, and not a directly related Heat injury.

That was my next question... sorry if it came off as if I was lecturing you or anything.  Wasn't the case, just wanted to throw out my opinion. 

[abysmal]

That was my next question... sorry if it came off as if I was lecturing you or anything.  Wasn't the case, just wanted to throw out my opinion. 

NOT a problem.
I had meant this whole thing just to be a light hearted comment on how hot is it here.
But it raised some serious issues that are never bad to discuss in an open forum.

Better that we should all be so concerned for the wellfare of our Cadets!!

[shorning]

I had meant this whole thing just to be a light hearted comment on how hot is it here.

Yeah know...I spent three years stationed in Tucson, AZ.  It never was (or at least felt) as hot as the three month I spent in Bahrain.  Of course in Bahrain it was 124 in the shade with 100% humidity (and no rain at all).  Plus we walked most of the places we went, and had marginal air conditioning in the tents.  Yet somehow you get used to it after a while...

[abysmal]

There is certainly a degree of adaptation or acclimatization that occurs.
When I moved here from Colorado I thought I would die.
Three years later and I can tollerate the cold at all, and 100 degrees is a cool temp.

Its gotten so bad now that When the pool gets down below 85, its COLD and none of the kids what to play in it.
Heck, the lake itself is approaching 94 degrees right now.

[abysmal]

FOLLOW UP.

Last night we had our weekly meeting.
Just as hot as last week.

With a little admonition my cadet staff institued STRICT water breaks every 15 minutes for all outdoor activities and de-bloused the whole cadet squadron.

No heat related causualites were reported...

[Schmidty06]

It's standing squadron policy (not many follow it...) here that you must have at least one, if not two canteens with you at every meeting and CAP activity.  I don't like to take the time necisarily to stop every X number minutes for a water break.  Instead, I like to foster an environment of SELF DISIPLINE FOR ONE'S OWN CARE as far as it comes to water and such at squadron meetings.  It's only two and a half hours, for heaven's sake.  That's like a normal workshift at NBB.  There, if you didn't take the responsibility to hydrate yourself and you got dehydrated, it was YOUR OWN fault. 

That's kind of how I feel on the whole matter.

[Reeses Peanut Butter Cup]

you know it's hot when...
Before Closing 75% of the cadets ask permission to; stand outside, get a drink, or just hit the ground at the position of attention.

[Pace]