Critical Phases of Flight on COFs

Started by CASH172, October 27, 2007, 03:49:02 AM

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flynd94

Quote from: BillB on October 30, 2007, 09:31:43 PM
I have never seen an FAA regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat. Some pilots that are left handed prefer to sit right seat.  Is there a CAP regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat?

Yes, it states in 52-7 that the PIC must be in the left seat.

Keith
Keith Stason, Maj, CAP
IC3, AOBD, GBD, PSC, OSC, MP, MO, MS, GTL, GTM3, UDF, MRO
Mission Check Pilot, Check Pilot

RiverAux

For o-rides, apparently yes.

I don't think the left seat requirement applies to other CAP flights.  I know it is very common for right seat pilots to fly the plane for a while during transport flights and they log that time. 

Yes, a small number of cadets regularly get training for private pilot license in CAP planes in my wing (at their expense).  Then, of course there is the national flight academy where the same thing happens.  Done under a different program. 

BillB

#22
There is no REGULATION 52-7.  CAPP 52-7 is not a regulation and is for guidance only.  I see no regulation or requirement that the PIC must be in the left seat except for the cadet O-rides, and even then that is open for review by the PIC
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

So, by this line of reasoning you can go up and do anything on an o-ride, document it as you see fit and the AF will be just fine for paying for it?  Since the senior member specialty track documents are pamphlets, it is ok for me to go in and get my commander to sign off on anything no matter that I didn't do what was in the pamphlet?  I think not. 

jeders

Quote from: BillB on October 30, 2007, 11:26:54 PM
There is no REGULATION 52-7.  CAPP 52-7 is not a regulation and is for guidance only.  I see no regulation or requirement that the PIC must be in the left seat except for the cadet O-rides, and even then that is open for review by the PIC

CAPP 52-7 under no circumstances carries the weight of regulation on its own. However, CAPR 52-16 states that all orientation flights must be conducted IAW CAPP 52-7. So during an O-flight, the PIC must sit left seat, on non O-flights, the PIC can sit left or right as, to the best of my knowledge, there is no requirement in 60-1 that states otherwise.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

genejackson

BillB and Daniel,

This line of discussion has to do with Cadet Orientation flying and not Cadet Flight Instruction, nothing about FAA rules for left or right seat PIC, etc.   This is about flying a Cadet Orientation Ride and those rules and regulations that pertain to just this specific aspect of CAP flying.

For Cadet O rides:  the Cadet O Ride pilot who is Form 5 current in the type and class of aircraft being flown, and functioning as the PIC, must be in the left seat.  No Exception allowed.

If you review CAPP 52-7 you'll see over and over the words DEMONSTRATE, EXPLAIN, DISCUSS and IDENTIFY.   You'll never see the word INSTRUCT.   This is not flight instruction and cadets who are receiving primary flight instruction from CAP CFI's fall under different rules of engagement.  I have supported the VAWG Powered Flight Academy for several years as well as have had several of my cadets in Group I receive flight scholarships given by Wing HQ so I know what I'm talking about here.

Cadet o rides are their own entity and no primary flight instruction is allowed.  These are demonstration flights.  

I will again reiterate this point based on spending many years in the military as well as having to sit on some boards discussing who did what and why,  the fine print will get you, and get you bad.  For Cadet O rides, follow the CAPP 52-7 to the letter and CAPR 60-1 as well, especially for letting unqualified people (cadets) operate the aircraft during the critical phase of flight.   Anything happens and you can expect to have to open you wallet and risk loss of flight priviledges and possibly a 709 ride, etc.

i have grounded no less than 4 pilots in my Group for doing stuff that was wrong, and every grounding was sustained by appeal board.  Any of my O ride pilots sit right seat or let the cadet operate the plane during the critical phase of flight - they are done as an o ride pilot and will be grounded by me.  

Gene Jackson
COL (R) US Army
Danville VA

genejackson

Jeders,
You are absolutely correct with your post on CAPR 52-17 and the IAW CAPP 52-7 as well as 60-1.   Non O ride, sit where you want.  O ride, better be in the left seat. 

I'm going to offer up something else here about fine print and following things to the letter -- I function as the Wing CD officer as well as Group CC and Homeland Security guy.   I really have to watch all my i's and t's and they gave me these jobs because I follow things to the letter and NEVER put my Wing in harms way.  Now, look at the NCWG crash of the C-172 several years ago and look at all the years that have elapsed with the families not receiving death benefits because the flight was not flown exactly per regulation.   I also know of a CD mission that was decertified as a picture was taken of the crew, and one of them had on blue jeans.  Picky?  You bet, but this is the way the rules go.

We simply must follow these CAPP's and CAPR's to the letter or risk the consequences.   Can you imagine the fallout were a flight to have a bad ending and the dead pilot to be strapped in the right seat and a dead cadet in the left seat?   They WON'T PAY DEATH BENEFITS TO THE FAMILIES because the flight was not flown to the letter of the law.   We can't have this.
Gene Jackson
COL (R) US Army
Danville VA

SJFedor

I know this is a stretch, but playing devil's advocate...

What if the cadet is a 17 year old licensened and F5'ed pilot?

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

SarDragon

#28
Quote from: SJFedor on October 31, 2007, 01:51:11 AM
I know this is a stretch, but playing devil's advocate...

What if the cadet is a 17 year old licensened and F5'ed pilot?

Then he doesn't really need the O-flight and should relinquish the spot to someone else.  Otherwise, PIC in left seat and cadet in right seat.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

genejackson

Dave is correct,  give the ride to someone else.

But, if he chooses to do the ride, then the same rules apply as this is a Cadet O ride under flight code A-15 (or B-15 depending on your Wing's funding) and CAPR 52-17, CAPP 52-7 apply for his Cadet level of participation and CAPR 60-1 still applies.   There is no caveat in CAPR 60-1 that says a cadet can do the TO/Landing/Critical phase if he holds a license.  It says,  only the Cadet O ride pilot shall operate the flight controls during this time.   And there is no way he can be PIC during an O ride as at 17 he can't be a CFI so he can't be an O ride pilot at that age.

17 year old cadet with a pilots license and Form 5 doing an O ride is still a cadet receiving a demonstration O ride - that's the intent of the ride, those are the rules of engagement.
Gene Jackson
COL (R) US Army
Danville VA

SJFedor

I know, I was just being a

But in all seriousness, I agree with you, Col Jackson. There's no wiggle room on this. You either do as the regulation states, or you don't fly. The consequences aren't worth the benefits.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

BlueLakes1

By the way, now that we have a bunch of new AFROTC orientation pilots, the MOA between USAF and CAP is VERY specific that the orientation pilot will occupy the left front seat "regardless of the aeronautical rating of the pilot or cadet".

I'm with Col. Jackson; I might not be able to suspend you myself since I'm "just" the DO, but if you're flying right seat PIC on an orientation flight in my wing, I'll do everything I can to get you grounded (and my boss usually listens to me on such things).
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC