Form 5

[star1151]

Two questions here....

Since 60-1 is fairly vague on requirements (maneuvers and such) can someone shed some light on what you'll need do on a checkride?

Second, I've flown once in six months so I don't feel capable of taking a checkride now.  If you rent a non-CAP plane to get proficient in, is that rental still tax deductible?  If not before I'm a qualified CAP pilot, what about after?

[ricecakecm]

You'll complete a "written" test online.  You'll also complete an aircraft questionnaire for the airplane you'll be flying.  This covers V-Speeds, systems questions, and emergency procedures.

As far as the actual Form 5 checkride, it's very similar to an FAA practical test.  There's an oral and a flight.  The flight is conducted using the Form 5 itself as a guide.  The PTS standards you're tested to are for the level of certificate you're exercising.  You can hold a commercial or ATP certificate and test to Private standards, but you'll be prohibited from doing anything in CAP that requires a commercial certificate.

During the oral, the check airman is going to ask you typical oral questions, plus questions about CAP flying knowledge and requirements.

Not sure about the tax questions.  I just give the checkrides.

[RiverAux]

I can't see how you could prove to the IRS that a flight in a private plane while not on CAP orders or for a CAP activity could be shown to be a CAP expense. 

Can you fly in a CAP plane with a CAP instructor pilot to bring you up to speed? 

[jayleswo]

After receiving a Form 5 checkride you are a CAP Pilot. You need an initial Form 5 in each aircraft type you want to fly as a CAP flight. So, conceivably, you could get an initial Form 5 in a CAP C-182. Then, subsequently, get an initial Form 5 with a CAP checkpilot in a flying club C-172. You can get a flight release to fly in the flying club C-172 as a non-reimbursable C mission and deduct the expense from your taxes. You would need to wear a CAP uniform, as for any CAP flight and conduct some sort of pilot proficiency like shooting some approaches, fly to an official meeting, or whatever, but that is legal under IRS rules. But don't believe me, check with your accountant or tax professional.

John Aylesorth, Lt Col
Commander PCR-CA-151
MP, MO, OBS, etc.

[star1151]

As far as the actual Form 5 checkride, it's very similar to an FAA practical test.  There's an oral and a flight.  The flight is conducted using the Form 5 itself as a guide.

Ok, and this question obviously explains the issues I'm having with my unit.  I was told to look at 60-1 as a guide, when clearly Form 5 spells it all out (nothing like being given inaccurate information on purpose).  I knew about the standards, but couldn't figure out what maneuvers were required until now.  Can the instrument portion be done separately?  That seems like an awfully long checkride if not (and this coming from someone who had a 2 hour CFII ride).

[star1151]

I can't see how you could prove to the IRS that a flight in a private plane while not on CAP orders or for a CAP activity could be shown to be a CAP expense. 

Can you fly in a CAP plane with a CAP instructor pilot to bring you up to speed? 

Unfortunately, no.  We have one instructor pilot in my squadron and I was told I could only fly with him to do the Form 5.  I was told it wasn't allowed for me to fly with a pilot from another squadron.  True or not, I really don't know.  I was basically told I had to just jump in the CAP plane and take the checkride.  Sorry, after six months of no flying and five years before that of only IFR and instructing, I'm just not ready for that.

[Nomex Maximus]

Star - I had to poke and prod at people in my unit for four months to get them to get the checkride scheduled. I was told that I could get all the preparation time I wanted in the CAP plane beforehand - but then I would have to get the same checkride pilots to do it that were so hard to get to give the checkride in the first place. So I just took the checkride and took my chances on passing it.

I passed, but it wasn't pretty. Three years ago when I was preparing for my PPL checkride I was flying 1 - 3 times a week. But airplanes were cheaper then and I had more spare cash than now. For the past two years I haven't gotten much flying time and my skills really deteriorated.

Rent a Cessna from somewhere, get up and go through the old routines - slow flight, steep turns, stalls, short and soft field operations, s-turns, turns around a point, read through the AIM again, the FARs and you can probably pull it off with no problem. Don't over think it.

Good luck.

--NM

[a2capt]

In CAWG, and I got the same information from others I know in other wings, a checkride is done by a checkpilot. I can schedule a checkride with any checkpilot in the wing.

Now, if you are part of one of those small wings from a sliver state in the northeast, maybe there is only one checkpilot, and your at the unit ;-)

60-1 is the CAPR that governs CAP flight activity. Consider it, if you will, a supplement to the FARs, as we follow all FARs and in some aspects our regulation is stiffer. With exception of mostly altitude, CAP may descend to 800 ft. AGL to look at something, that may be the most blatant 'violation' of the FARs, with respect to the 1,000 ft away from the 'populated area', 'structure', etc.

The answer you were given, 60-1, is a correct answer. It is all spelled out within. The documents required for a checkride are listed. CAP Form 5 is the actual form that will be filled out during your evaluation and listed therein as well as the documents that will need to be in your 201 file or pilot records, if they are kept separately. Your wing may also have additional items it wants, that will be on a supplement to 60-1.

What you may not do is use a checkpilot from another wing unless prior written authorization is given by the Wing CC or on behalf of, in some wings this may be delegated with authority.

Examples could be places like units in California that are actually part of NVWG due to their defacto isolation and being very close to NV.

As for "you just have to jump right in and fly", that seems absurd, and I can' t even go there, there is obviously something going on with an attitude/personality clash there.

As for "the only one that can give the checkride", now it may be that your unit has a particular checkout, in the name of safety, for operating at the home airport and that checkout can only be given by the unit designated checkpilot, and if so, there should be a  unit supplement to 60-1 for that or your wing has some sort of supplement that says units can dictate who the checkpilot is. Don't know, never heard of one, and thats not what 60-1 says. (and I'm not even going into the proper way to attach supplement to 60-1, we'll presume that it is done accordingly, if not, it's meaningless)

I can tell you I have flown CAP aircraft many times as proficiency flights in preparation for a checkride. Sometimes the same day even, just different flights. I've never been turned down by a checkpilot for that. Because I do most of my own CAP flying in member owned, IE, my own, and rentals I have available to me, so I don't get much time using the CAP radio and GPS with SAR grids.

OTOH, I have my own similar equipment, a portable GPS that displays grids for me, though un-numbered, the lines match up. I have a VX150 and the aircraft intercom has been modified to allow me to connect the VX150 or ICOM A20 to the 3rd position and the radio clips to the Cessna ashtray right by the window. So the antenna is plainly visible, being in the air- a repeater is line of sight and I don't have problems with ground teams either. Push to talk activates that radio. I got fairly proficient at wingshadowing and have one of the old Cessna 300 radios that I've found does a great job with ELTs. The antennas are on the roof, so wing shadowing is a tad simpler than with them mounted underneath which requires steeper turns as you get closer to the signal, to mask it out completely.

Side stepping;

Putting on the hood and going some distance away from a towered airport is okay wingshadow practice, have your safety pilot fly for a bit while you stare at the floor and then with just reference to instruments and radio, wingshadow the ATIS. You'll see what it's like to eclipse the transmitter with the aircraft and not have an expectation of what direction it should happen since you don't know where you're at.  If you do this at altitude you can even use it to find the airport, if you do it right, you'll end up over top. That means no looking out the window at all.

If the unit has a practice beacon, have someone arrange to have someone else set that out, too. Go find it.  You shouldn't have an idea where it is... a bit more realistic. 

[star1151]

Now, if you are part of one of those small wings from a sliver state in the northeast, maybe there is only one checkpilot, and your at the unit ;-)

Nah, I actually did two flights with a check pilot from another unit and was told I couldn't do that.  I knew the rule about same wing check pilots, but that's not really an issue because of where I live.

The answer you were given, 60-1, is a correct answer. It is all spelled out within.

Well, not quite.  I don't consider "The check pilot will observe the applicant accomplish requested flight maneuvers and demonstrations in accordance with the criteria contained in the appropriate FAA Pilot Practical Test Standards without assistance from the check pilot" to be guidance in which maneuvers are required.  But I was pointed in the right direction on that point and actually looking at Form 5 clarified it for me. :-)

As for "the only one that can give the checkride", now it may be that your unit has a particular checkout, in the name of safety, for operating at the home airport

Our home airport is in busy airspace, so yes, I'm sure they focus more on radios and ATC procedures than other units would.  However, since other units routinely use our airplane, I'm sure their check pilots are more than familiar with the airspace (in fact, because of the overlap, we're all basically flying out of the same airspace).  I've never been given a specific reason I had to fly with my own unit's check pilot, so who knows.  Personally, it's more incentive for me to get all the training out of the way and become a check pilot myself....I'm being pushed by a few people in my unit and really held back by others.  Just strange and I hate stepping on toes, but I don't see that I'm breaking any regs. 

I can tell you I have flown CAP aircraft many times as proficiency flights in preparation for a checkride.

So even if I'm not Form 5 qualified yet, I can still fly with a check/instructor pilot and do proficiency flights?  I'm being told that's not true, and I can't really find a clarification in the regs.  I'd really prefer to use our plane just for cost issues.  I hate pushing this because I don't want to be accused of only wanting to fly, but since there's nothing else for me to do in CAP yet, I might as well work on the pilot qualifications while I have time, right?

I mean, I've done the online test, filled out the airplane questionnaire, just need to get out and fly.  Actually just need to work on VFR procedures, since my VFR skills really deteriorated after getting my instrument (and pretty much forgot everything after the CFII).  That's one of the reasons I joined CAP...more challenging VFR flying.

[CFI_Ed]

Since 60-1 is fairly vague on requirements (maneuvers and such) can someone shed some light on what you'll need do on a checkride?

Bottom line - you can fly with any CAP Instructor Pilot (who may or may not be a Check Pilot) if you can fit into their schedule; this so you can gain the needed proficiency to pass the Form 5.  Depending on your squadron and wing procedures, you will more than likely not be able to fly your Form 5 with that same pilot if they happen to be a Check Pilot. 

The maneuvers selected are up to your check pilot.  During the check pilot clinics here, we've pretty much standardized on as a minimum; slow flight transitioning to full stalls and recoveries, emergency procedures, unusual attitude recoveries, three take-offs and landings (short, soft, crosswind), traffic pattern work, all the pre-flight and safety awareness boxes, some basic air work like steep turns, and two or three instrument approaches if qualified. 

We try not to draw out the checkride because you're paying for it, but if the candidate is having a bad day the check ride could either be really long... or really short.

[Eclipse]

I can't see how you could prove to the IRS that a flight in a private plane while not on CAP orders or for a CAP activity could be shown to be a CAP expense.

The same way you substantiate just about any other deductible CAP expense, ultimately with your signature at the bottom of the form.
This is really no different than mileage, equipment, a Denny's receipt, etc.  Its between you, your tax guy, and the IRS.  You might consider writing off just a portion of the cost. Of course all this goes out the window if you don't itemize to start with. (IANAL or a tax guy, YMMV)

Ok, and this question obviously explains the issues I'm having with my unit.  I was told to look at 60-1 as a guide, when clearly Form 5 spells it all out (nothing like being given inaccurate information on purpose).  I knew about the standards, but couldn't figure out what maneuvers were required until now.  Can the instrument portion be done separately?  That seems like an awfully long checkride if not (and this coming from someone who had a 2 hour CFII ride).

Total 100% BS - why don't you just transfer and start having some fun?

A CAP Form 5 pilot must be left-seat PIC (unless its your check ride), but anyone with a ticket can go up with that person and get proficiency time, in fact its ENCOURAGED to keep hours on the airframes. Why rent some beat-up 150 when you can have a pretty 172 or 182 for 1/2 the price?

And with you paying the gas, if you can't find a CAP pilot to go up with from somewhere around you, then you really are in some other dimension.

So even if I'm not Form 5 qualified yet, I can still fly with a check/instructor pilot and do proficiency flights?  I'm being told that's not true, and I can't really find a clarification in the regs.  I'd really prefer to use our plane just for cost issues.  I hate pushing this because I don't want to be accused of only wanting to fly, but since there's nothing else for me to do in CAP yet, I might as well work on the pilot qualifications while I have time, right?

Barring some bizarre supplement to 60-1, which if legal would be publised on NHQ's site, they are lying, or you are misinterpreting the conversation.  Its entirly possible that they want to keep a GOB club closed to new members.  Ask someone at the Group or Wing level.

requiring commanders to tell the truth, help you with your CAP career and back up their statements with written documentation is not "stepping on toes", its their job.  You might be amazed what happens if you move up the chain and start asking someone who actually know the program.  Calls are made, and people knock it off.

[star1151]

Total 100% BS - why don't you just transfer and start having some fun?

That's an option...but I am basically at the closest unit and don't want to go so far away that I'll never be able to fly a mission because I'm 3 hours away in traffic from the airport.  Anyway, my commander knows nothing about these issues and I figure I owe it to him to explain before I go somewhere else.  It's on the list this week to talk to him.

Barring some bizarre supplement to 60-1, which if legal would be publised on NHQ's site, they are lying, or you are misinterpreting the conversation.  Its entirly possible that they want to keep a GOB club closed to new members.  Ask someone at the Group or Wing level.

Unfortunately that's not possible, and if you'd like to know why, I'd be more than happy to tell you in a PM.  I can definitely find someone from another unit to go with me, but that's also frowned upon.  Much more politics than I'd expected, but I'm honestly glad I can come here and get things clarified.  Makes me a little more certain I'm not just misinterpreting the regs.

Regarding the tax issue, this is making me almost regret buying the house...not itemizing was so much easier!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Total 100% BS - why don't you just transfer and start having some fun?

A CAP Form 5 pilot must be left-seat PIC (unless its your check ride), but anyone with a ticket can go up with that person and get proficiency time, in fact its ENCOURAGED to keep hours on the airframes. Why rent some beat-up 150 when you can have a pretty 172 or 182 for 1/2 the price?

And with you paying the gas, if you can't find a CAP pilot to go up with from somewhere around you, then you really are in some other dimension.

So even if I'm not Form 5 qualified yet, I can still fly with a check/instructor pilot and do proficiency flights?  I'm being told that's not true, and I can't really find a clarification in the regs.  I'd really prefer to use our plane just for cost issues.  I hate pushing this because I don't want to be accused of only wanting to fly, but since there's nothing else for me to do in CAP yet, I might as well work on the pilot qualifications while I have time, right?

The way its been explained to me, and the way we interpret 60-1, you can fly with any form 5 qualified pilot.   However, you are limited as to what you may do.   Paragraph 2.19(d) states"Critical Phases of Flight Restrictions. Except during flight instruction, unqualified pilots (including Check Pilots as defined in para 3-2e) will not fly CAP aircraft during critical phases of flight. For the purpose of this paragraph, a critical phase of flight is takeoffs and landings, VFR traffic patterns, instrument approaches, stalls, steep turns, and flight at 1000 ft AGL and below."

However, if you are flying with a qualified CAP Instructor Pilot, or Check Pilot you may perform "critical phases of flight" in order to practice for the form 5, as that would be under the exemption of "flight instruction".   Paragraph 2.19 (d) is a recent add on to 60-1.

[Eclipse]

Total 100% BS - why don't you just transfer and start having some fun?

That's an option...but I am basically at the closest unit and don't want to go so far away that I'll never be able to fly a mission because I'm 3 hours away in traffic from the airport.  Anyway, my commander knows nothing about these issues and I figure I owe it to him to explain before I go somewhere else.  It's on the list this week to talk to him.

Barring some bizarre supplement to 60-1, which if legal would be published on NHQ's site, they are lying, or you are misinterpreting the conversation.  Its entirely possible that they want to keep a GOB club closed to new members.  Ask someone at the Group or Wing level.

Unfortunately that's not possible, and if you'd like to know why, I'd be more than happy to tell you in a PM.  I can definitely find someone from another unit to go with me, but that's also frowned upon.  Much more politics than I'd expected, but I'm honestly glad I can come here and get things clarified.  Makes me a little more certain I'm not just misinterpreting the regs.

Regarding the tax issue, this is making me almost regret buying the house...not itemizing was so much easier!

since I can't do anything about it, a PM with details isn't going to help anyone here.  You know your options and what is allowed, you have to take it from here...

[star1151]

since I can't do anything about it, a PM with details isn't going to help anyone here.  You know your options and what is allowed, you have to take it from here...

And I'm planning on doing so.  I was simply trying to head off further questions.