CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[SJESOFFICER]

Hey Bosshawk,

Its Brendan from Sqd 80... I worked the first weekend of the mission and the pods reported at best were 10%, so many rocks, shadows, ravines and not to mention some trees.  We had a debriefing among sqd members at last nights meeting.  Our squadron had at least 7 people who got to sign in and put some hard work in.  From my perspective at base we covered a lot of area and put in a lot of hours, only downfall I see is the terrain didn't make it any easier but nothing is ever easy... for RECRUITER I believe we have scaled down and will only investigate new leads with a 2 hour crew on call.
Brendan

[bosshawk]

Ryan and all of the other non-pilots: there is no requirement for any pilot to file a flight plan for a VFR flight: that is, under visual flight rules, which is the most common sort of flying by light aircraft  He didn't do a thing wrong in that respect.

ELTs can fail to activate for a number of reasons: upside down with the antenna buried, in a lake or river, destroyed in a fire, destroyed by the force of the crash, etc.

On the flip side, they can be activated by a hard landing, but not often.  They simply are a crap shoot, in the best of cases.  Better than nothing, but not as good as they might be.  Of course, with small planes, money for an ELT often over rules the making of better ones.  For lots of reasons, small plane owners are very reluctant to spend money on anything other than fuel: often at their own peril.

[bosshawk]

Hi, Brendan.  Of course, I remember you from my days in 80.  Glad you could contribute in the search.

[SarDragon]

Ryan:

About 15 percent of all crashes fail to transmit any ELT signal.

From an email exchange:
Next question for you, Dave - What's the reliability of the ELTs
starting when there *is* a crash?

My response:
Variable. If properly mounted (as far aft as possible), and if it doesn't get destroyed in the crash by getting smashed or burned up, and if the antenna remains attached, and if the wreckage doesn't end up on top of the antenna, and if the battery has been properly maintained, then pretty good.

To continue:
If there is a breakdown in any of these, you ain't gonna get squat out of the ELT. The last wreck I was at had an O2 fed fire that totally destroyed the cockpit area. The ELT was mounted about two feet too far forward, and was damaged in the fire to the extent that it failed to operate. Even under the best conditions, ELTs are a crap shoot.

[A little repeat info, but the last two posts happened while I was doing my hunt and peck routine.]

[SJESOFFICER]

Hey when are you going to stop by again...

[Al Sayre]

KOLO is reporting that there may be a hit from the google earth search.  Appears someone who was working it was actually thinking and comparing new and old images, and found a promising anomaly on the California Nevada border.  I'll withhold judgment until a ground team investigates...

[SJESOFFICER]

As for elts I would say the least they could do is reeinforce them with a steel box so it'll take a little more of a beating then hard plastic would... but then you get into weight factors.  Hmm maybe like the Siris has an emergency parachute system maybe elts should be deployed by a tail wire to keep it a little ways away from the plane if an emergency occurs...might even be easier to deactivate on those udf missions...

[eaglefly]

dougsnow

But yes, FalconView would be very cool.

Contact me at cwmorris2@charter.net I can help.

[SDF_Specialist]

As for elts I would say the least they could do is reeinforce them with a steel box so it'll take a little more of a beating then hard plastic would... but then you get into weight factors.  Hmm maybe like the Siris has an emergency parachute system maybe elts should be deployed by a tail wire to keep it a little ways away from the plane if an emergency occurs...might even be easier to deactivate on those udf missions...

That makes more sense. Have the ELT somewhere where it can deploy to try to reduce the damage done to it. Now what are the odds something like that would actually happen?

[JohnKachenmeister]

1.  A flight plan would not have done much good in this case, since his plan was imprecise.  He was not flying from point A to point B, he was just cruising around looking for a place to run his race car.

2.  Back in the day, we used to have big missions, 25-50 planes at a time out of a base, all member-owned, everything from Stinson Flying Station Wagons to the "New" Cessna 172. We had no ELT's to track, and if we found the target it was through employment of the highest-tech device we had, which was the "Mark 1 'Eyeball' Light Image Processing Device."  The ELT came about after some high-profile politician was lost in Alaska and never found (by humans... bears MIGHT have found him, but if they did they failed to file the required report).  ELT's make it easier, but they cant do everything.

[SJESOFFICER]

True... but it would be a lot easier if they worked with some consistancy which is why I had a creatative brain storm earlier, throw the elt out of harms way. Instead of ejecting from a seat pull the handle and drop an elt wired to to the tail or automatic dipense... 

[SJFedor]

True... but it would be a lot easier if they worked with some consistancy which is why I had a creatative brain storm earlier, throw the elt out of harms way. Instead of ejecting from a seat pull the handle and drop an elt wired to to the tail or automatic dipense... 

No. Woudn't happen.

#1. Too expensive to retrofit all the older aircraft.

#2. Pilots are taught, first and foremost, to FLY THE AIRPLANE. I wouldn't want to fiddle around with trying to pull some handle somewhere when my plane is going down. I would want to land the aircraft the best I can to increase my chances of surviving the crash.

#3. Someone pulls it while they're going in, but also pulls it while they're a few thousand feet up. That beacon can end up miles upon miles away from any wreckage. Depending on wind, altitude, and skill, you could be 50+ miles away.

#4. Close to ground accident happens where there's no time to even think about deploying the ELT. No activation, just as bad as a plane w/ a normal ELT that fails to function, except that, requiring deployment to activate, you've now taken the 15% of crashes that don't activate, and made it much higher.

#5. Such a system would probably weigh a considerable amount, and require a lot of work to install.

#6. Someone accidentally pulls it in flight and doesn't realize it. Now we're chasing an ELT in the middle of BFE.

[SarDragon]

As for elts I would say the least they could do is reeinforce them with a steel box so it'll take a little more of a beating then hard plastic would... but then you get into weight factors.  Hmm maybe like the Siris has an emergency parachute system maybe elts should be deployed by a tail wire to keep it a little ways away from the plane if an emergency occurs...might even be easier to deactivate on those udf missions...

Oh, goody, my favorite CAP Q - Who's gonna pay? We're having enough problem getting the newer style ELTs into older planes. Let's make them even more expensive.

A steel box would provide little additional protection unless it is really thick, adding weight. The plastic boxes are pretty sturdy, and provide adequate shock protection, at a reasonable weight. Additional fire protection comes with its own penalties, and is really unnecessary if the ELT is mounted according to the manufacturer's recommendation - as far aft as possible. This creates access problems, so the A/C makers use compromises.

A tether and deployment system will be expensive, heavy, and a maintenance nightmare.

How long do you make the tether? Out of what material? How do you ensure that it doesn't end up under the wreckage anyway?

How do you accomlish deployment - manually or automatically? By what means - spring? Explosive charge? There's another can of worms all by itself.

[Y'all type too fast!]

[sardak]

An ELT that deploys in the event of an accident exists.  It is a follow-on to combination ELT/cockpit voice recorder/flight data recorders that have been around for years.  These are called Deployable Flight Information Recorder Systems (DFIRS).  They are primarily used on military aircraft, but are available and used on civilian aircraft, both fixed wing and helicopters.  The FAA has has approved them and the NTSB would like to see them used more.  From DRS Technologies, the prominent manufacturer in the field.

The electronics are packaged within a crash survivable Beacon Airfoil Unit (BAU) that is qualified and certified to CAA, TCA and FAA standards. In the event of an accident, the deployment of the BAU is automatically triggered by on-board sensors, thereby allowing the BAU to escape the devastating effects of the crash. The ELT immediately transmits its distress signal, including aircraft identification number, to the COSPAS-SARSAT network. With its Global Positioning System (GPS) encoding option, the BAU transmits the aircraft's last known latitude and longitude to aid in search and rescue efforts. The BAU floats indefinitely, providing superior survivability and localization of crew and aircraft that crash in water.

For military models: In the event of an accident, the deployment of the DFIRS is triggered automatically by an impact sensor or through release of the ejection seat. Activation by either of these means initiates the deployment mechanism that releases the DFIRS into the aircraft slipstream where it "flies" away from the aircraft.

Obviously a DFIRS is not something that one is going to install on a general aviation aircraft, and I suspect the cost of a deployable 406 ELT is astronomical, but the idea of a deployable beacon is in real world use.

More info:
CPI-406 Deployable ELT

Mike

[SarDragon]

Sure, now the ELTs cost more than the A/C. 

[SJESOFFICER]

thanx mike for the support... I put my idea out there as an idea in general and not in practical literal way. However, the system you are talking about I think makes sense... if I were to try to adapt the standard elt to be deployable I don't think much weight would be added, 30 ft of tether, 3/4 steel line bolted to the tail.  as to to install it on all the a/c I wouldn't go that far just because  siris made a plane with a chute on, doesnt mean  older planes  have to adopt it.  I guess overall I think someone can make a tethered deployable elt priced for private use. as for weight you just have to account for the tethered line and detachment mechanism into the slipstream. Possible have an aquator release it through a switch like the one they use already to manually activate the elt. I think I will transfer this to its own topic, and maybe we have some engineers who can comment. it may not be realistic but then ideas don't become realities until their actually made...  Ask yourself this if one was made affordable and was more reliable than the current equipment wouldn't you want one...

[SJESOFFICER]

also have to add it doesn't mean its practical just because they exist... and you all have very good points...

[calguy]

I am back at home after flying the Fosset Search for the last two weeks on and off out of Bishop.
A couple of items:
I heard nothing but support from the IC regard Col. Muniz during his daily briefings.

The command staff was a pre planned managment team SECOND TO NONE!

They kept 15+ planes in the air all day with a staff of 4.

CAWG did use member owned aircraft.

I was amazed how 4 or 5 experts on the IC staff could do so well vs. how CAWG performed during the SAREVAL.  Quality, not quantity worked here.

Everyday, there were requests for resources that went unfilled by our members.  But once there was free room and board, everyone wanted to jump on board.

CAWG and CAP should learn from these guys and move forward.

[SJESOFFICER]

I think the 2 RON was a very limiting factor we are volunteers not everyone can do 3 days... I did it but I bit the bullet... if I was retired that would be a diff story. I would say our moral was lowered because of this... I understand crew rest for socal crews but norcal within 180 miles? I think a crew for 2 full days is better than none...

[SJESOFFICER]

otherwise this was my first real mission and I learned a lot... ty staff