Mess dress, flight suits, oh my.

[Lee Davis]

I've seen a lot of differing opinions about wearing various uniforms, but here's a question which recently came up:

If you're on a cruiseline vacation, and there's a "formal" night, can you wear your mess dress uniform?

Or should you just rent a tux and let your association with CAP be silent?

Not interested in what you wear under your flight suit, blues, or mess dress.  Not interested in seeing your rack. Just interested in your educated opinion on this topic.

My opinion: Not within regs...but it could be a good recruiting opportunity.  But what do I know?  That's why I'm asking. 

Thanks!

[CAPLAW]

Is it a CAP activity?

Are you wearing the AF style uniform on a ship that is a non-American flag bearing ?

Are you in a foreing port or waters?


wHAT REGS HAVE YOU BROKEN TODAY!

[dwb]

Hey look, it's my second chance in a week to use my new flow chart!



NOTE: John K. of MDWG came up with the flow, I just put it in a chart.

[Pylon]

Perhaps a better question is why not?  Sure, the regulations are fairly clear in my opinion... but the same type of question comes up in the "Flight Suit Duty Uniform"  -- why not?

The last cruise I was on, on formal night, I saw no less than 6 or 7 USAF mess dress uniforms (clearly the majority in the crowd), a Marine in dress blues, and an Army officer in dress blues.  (Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

So how's is it inappropriate, besides the fact that the way the reg is currently written?

[Stonewall]

While I absolutely love Dan's flow chart above, I will actually go with the opposite of what the chart says to do.

The reason why, is because if you consider CAP is similar in nature to the Real Military™, and in the Real Military™ you would absolutely find service men and women wearing their formal attire at a civilian hosted formal event, then why wouldn't you wear CAP?  Personally, I wouldn't, because I don't have CAP mess dress, nor do I have Air Force mess dress.  But if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to wear it.  Civilians wear civilian tuxedos, servicemen wear military tuxedos and civilian members of a military auxiliary wear CAP tuxedos. 

No biggie.  But I can totally understand why many people wouldn't do so, but for me it isn't a big issue.

[pixelwonk]

(Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

They don't want to be mistaken for the waiter. 

[JC004]

(Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

They don't want to be mistaken for the waiter. 

lmao   

[jimmydeanno]

While I absolutely love Dan's flow chart above, I will actually go with the opposite of what the chart says to do.

The reason why, is because if you consider CAP is similar in nature to the Real Military™, and in the Real Military™ you would absolutely find service men and women wearing their formal attire at a civilian hosted formal event, then why wouldn't you wear CAP?  Personally, I wouldn't, because I don't have CAP mess dress, nor do I have Air Force mess dress.  But if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to wear it.  Civilians wear civilian tuxedos, servicemen wear military tuxedos and civilian members of a military auxiliary wear CAP tuxedos. 

No biggie.  But I can totally understand why many people wouldn't do so, but for me it isn't a big issue.

However, in other situations, CAP says we can wear our uniform while DoD recommends they don't.  For instance, the wearing of service dress aboard commercial flights.  My wife has been told on many occasions not to do this, just wear civilian clothing, where it used to be customary.

[Stonewall]

However, in other situations, CAP says we can wear our uniform while DoD recommends they don't.  For instance, the wearing of service dress aboard commercial flights.  My wife has been told on many occasions not to do this, just wear civilian clothing, where it used to be customary.

Ever been to Lackland or an AF base where tons of airmen are graduating tech school?  It's like a sea of blue being sent off in all directions at the local airports.  While big bad DOD may not recommend folks travel in service dress, it's certainly not always practiced.  Not saying I'd wear my service dress on a plane, I stay out of service dress if at all possible.

But he's not asking about wearing service dress on a flight, he's asking about a formal dinner, where others have worn military mess dress and I happen to know of several that have done the same.  Not saying it's "right" in the grand scheme of things, but I do believe it is s a personal preference and not really a big deal at that.

[Sgt. Savage]

CAPP 151, Para 11. Sec. g. "If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions,
you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress
uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the
occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or
flight suits to civilian functions."


There are provisions for wearing the uniform to civilian functions.

[ColonelJack]

I wear my mess dress in place of formal attire at some functions, and I'm retired.  (Maybe I shouldn't admit that, though.    )

I've also been seen (and photographed!  posted here!!) with mess dress jacket and kilt.  Regulation?  No.  Sharp-looking?  You betcha. 

What are they gonna do ... fire me?   

Jack

[RiverAux]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

[afgeo4]

Technically, according to the regs we can't wear the mess dress as wedding attire, but that is exactly what's supposed to be worn. Social events at political fund raisers, balls, government dinners... they're all non CAP activities, but all require mess dress garb.

[Dragoon]

I'd go with the flow chart.  If the event has some tie to CAP at all, a uniform might be appropriate.

Attending a state dinner as a rep of CAP? Wear it.

Attending a funeral of a CAP member?  Wear it

Attending a wedding of a CAP member who has requested uniforms be worn?  Wear it.

Wearing it to a non CAP member's wedding because you want to look cool?  No

Wear it to a political fund raiser?  Boy, sure hope not.  We're supposed to be neutral on such issues, I think.

[jimmydeanno]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

I agree.

[afgeo4]

I'd go with the flow chart.  If the event has some tie to CAP at all, a uniform might be appropriate.

Attending a state dinner as a rep of CAP? Wear it.

Attending a funeral of a CAP member?  Wear it

Attending a wedding of a CAP member who has requested uniforms be worn?  Wear it.

Wearing it to a non CAP member's wedding because you want to look cool?  No

Wear it to a political fund raiser?  Boy, sure hope not.  We're supposed to be neutral on such issues, I think.

I meant that as an invited guest/guest of honor.

[Sgt. Savage]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

Same Paragraph, Section i dictates when YOU MAY NOT wear the uniform

"i. Civil Air Patrol members will not wear the uniform or
any part of the uniform:
(1) At a meeting or demonstration by, or sponsored by, an organization, association, movement, or group that:
(a) The Attorney General of the United States has designated as Totalitarian, Fascist, Communist, or subversive.
(b) Advocates or approves acts of force or violence to deny others their rights under the Constitution of the United States.
(c) Seeks to change the United States government by unconstitutional means.
(2) When participating in activities such as public
speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, or rallies; or in any public demonstration (including civil rights demonstrations) not approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.
(3) When furthering private employment or commercial interests, if official sponsorship might be inferred.
(4) When engaged in private employment.
(5) When it would discredit the Armed Forces.
(6) At any public meeting, demonstration, march, rally, or interview if the purpose may be to advocate, express, or approve opposition

It goes so far as to say you may not wear it to work but nothing about going to dinner.

[DrJbdm]

I'm thinking of wearing my mess dress uniform on my next cruise.  Almost did last time but my wife ordered me a tux on board. I saw many military officers and NCOs wearing mess dress. While I personally think it is fitting if the military does it, I have always wanted to know what others in CAP have thought of it.

How many of you have worn mess dress on the formal night of a cruise?

[Stonewall]

If I had Air Force mess dress, I'd wear that to a formal dinner on a cruies.  If I had CAP mess dress, I'd wear it.  I don't have either, but I do have a tux, so I'd wear that.

[LittleIronPilot]

I'm thinking of wearing my mess dress uniform on my next cruise.  Almost did last time but my wife ordered me a tux on board. I saw many military officers and NCOs wearing mess dress. While I personally think it is fitting if the military does it, I have always wanted to know what others in CAP have thought of it.

How many of you have worn mess dress on the formal night of a cruise?

Why not? That is what I am starting to wonder with so many internal to CAP that seem to think our "service" is somehow less because we do not carry a gun or fall under USMJ.

I HAVE done both of those above, and am rightfully proud of my military service. I do not see why I should not be as rightly proud of my volunteer service in an organization, that at least as for now, DOES fall under "Big Blue".  I spend my money to buy uniforms, I spend my free time to serve my community and my fellow pilots, I take time off of work to do these things....so why should I NOT wear the Mess Dress as my military, and Coastie counterparts do?

Why are some here just so negative to the CAP and its military heritage and ties?

[sandman]

(Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

They don't want to be mistaken for the waiter. 

lmao   

Er.....(best Bugs Bunny voice) "...will that be one lump or two with your coffee?"

Seriously though; from CAPP 151:

g. If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions,
you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress
uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the
occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or
flight suits to civilian functions.

So far in reading the regs and CAPP 151 there seems to be no prohibition from wearing the uniform at a social function such as one aboard a cruise ship. In fact, it is your choice to do so...."If", in CAPP 151, can be interpreted that way.

It says nothing about CAP social functions ONLY....

(best Bill Clinton voice) "depends on what "if" is...."

As I've stated before on another string....quit crying "we're not worthy, we're not worthy"!

I would certainly wear the mess dress uniform at such a function. We must quit this "best kept secret" stuff and be recognized!

Please, wear the uniform. Wear it properly and with pride.

I would be delighted to see a CAP member all gussied up in his/her best outside of the squadron!

v/r
LT

[flyerthom]

I've take two cruises with Spectacular Cruises. They advertise in EMS journals and Fire Fighter journals. They have packages for Emergency Services providers and encourage the use of dress uniforms for the formal dinners. If I booked with them again I'd not hesitate to use my mess dress. After all I'd be marketing CAP to a group of people we'd most likely work with - and want to recruit.

http://www.spectacularcruises.com/
info

[RiverAux]

I guess I have a hard time stretching CAPM 39-1 to justify wearing a CAP uniform at any function that has nothing at all to do with CAP or the normal duties of a CAP member.  Wearing it on a cruise obviously does not meet any standard of when CAP uniforms may be worn.  It doesn't matter to us what members of the Armed Forces do -- thats their business. 

By the way CAPP151 has no authority in regards to CAP uniform wear according to CAPM39-1:

This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

[MIKE]

What does CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1. say?

[RiverAux]

The part where it tells you where you can't wear the uniform has already been quoted.  The part where it tells you when you can wear the uniform has no mention of saying when you can wear it outside of CAP duties.  I seem to recall a stronger statement on this issue in the older version (before they went to the tables) but it looks like I've tossed it. 

[sandman]

What does CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1. say?

Well, since you threw the question out there:

.....Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF.

and

Civil Air Patrol prescribes wear policy and the
use of CAP emblems, insignia, and badges on the CAP distinctive uniforms.

and table 1.1 notes as an option:

when attending social activities or dinners on military installations,
the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.

Yes it says military installations. Otherwise it is silent on social functions outside of a military installation. The caution that deviations from this manual are not authorized (paraphrased) are in regards to wearing of bling are are ambiguous at best regarding the actual AF uniform.

So, which way do you want to read this? I would prefer the interpretation that when wearing the AF style uniform follow AF rules and regulations. And that means joining the men and women on the dance floor of the cruise ship.....Take along a couple of CAP recruiting brochures to make it legal

Those of you who have a "hard time....to justify wearing [it] at any function" outside of CAP....well don't then. your just adding to the corporate self-loathing endemic within the ranks of CAP.

However, I will keep an open mind if somebody comes up with CLEAR, UNAMBIGUOUS prohibitions against wearing a CAP mess dress uniform to an off base civil social function.....

[RiverAux]

Under this interpretation its just fine if I wear the CAP uniform just about anytime I want and at my total discretion so long as I don't violate one of those prohibitions.  Sorry, just don't buy that. 

[mikeylikey]

Since flight suits are included in the topic heading, has anyone seen those Chinese knock off versions of the green nomex floating around?  I saw one on a CAP guy this evening and had a discussion along......."hope you are not caught in a hot fiery situation, cause that will most likely melt to your skin and be very hard to remove".  I understand the price and money constraints members have, but seriously, don't sacrifice safety for $$.  Oh, don't buy Chinese products also, they are trying to kill Americans.

[Hawk200]

Since flight suits are included in the topic heading, has anyone seen those Chinese knock off versions of the green nomex floating around?  I saw one on a CAP guy this evening and had a discussion along......."hope you are not caught in a hot fiery situation, cause that will most likely melt to your skin and be very hard to remove".  I understand the price and money constraints members have, but seriously, don't sacrifice safety for $$.  Oh, don't buy Chinese products also, they are trying to kill Americans.

Seen a few of those. You can buy stuff just as cheap, in new or near new condition, on eBay. Kinda stupid to nickel and dime yourself to death(which could be literally true), just to wear something brand new. Nothing wrong with looking broken in.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!

[sandman]

Under this interpretation its just fine if I wear the CAP uniform just about anytime I want and at my total discretion so long as I don't violate one of those prohibitions.  Sorry, just don't buy that. 

The point is that CAPM 39-1 is ambiguous except where it says social activities at a military installation. What social activities happen on military installations? My answer is military social activities (including CAP).

At this point I invite your attention to the language in CAPP 151 which clearly states civilian social functions avoiding the term military social function or on a military base exclusively. Otherwise why have a mess dress uniform? It would serve no useful function.

No, I am not advocating wearing of the uniform any time you want. That prohibition is less ambiguous. I am advocating wear of the mess dress uniform for a social event that by custom means after 1800hrs.

[O-Rex]

I have mess-dress, but wife won't be caught dead with me when I'm in uniform.  Went to Syms, bought a Tux for less than what it cost to rent one.  Used it on my last two cruises.

Not only that, but I personally limit CAP uniforms to CAP/Military fuctions.

Anyone remember the old level 1 video where there is a Senior Member in Blockbuster in Service Dress, and a man and his daughter approach him to ask him about it?  I thought it was hysterical. . .

[Al Sayre]

My wife wanted us to go on a cruise.  I told her there is a reason the Navy had to pay me to ride around on a boat, and I can't see spending that kind of money to do it for fun... But I'd say if you want to do it, by all means wear your Mess Dress to formal night, just call it a recruiting opportunity. (Just don't get plowed or start blowing chunks in public...)  YMMV

[brasda91]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

Actually 151 doesn't specify whether or not you're going as part of CAP duty.  It makes a simple statement regarding social functions.  Quit trying to read into the meaning.   

Trying to read between the lines is a lot of the problems we create for ourselves.  The majority  of the time, if you just read the regs as they are written, they're not hard to follow. 

Hence, Mess Dress is acceptable for a civilian function, whether or not you are there on CAP duty.   

[mikeylikey]

** sigh **

[SAR-EMT1]

I've seen a lot of differing opinions about wearing various uniforms, but here's a question which recently came up:

If you're on a cruiseline vacation, and there's a "formal" night, can you wear your mess dress uniform?

Or should you just rent a tux and let your association with CAP be silent?

Not interested in what you wear under your flight suit, blues, or mess dress.  Not interested in seeing your rack. Just interested in your educated opinion on this topic.

My opinion: Not within regs...but it could be a good recruiting opportunity.  But what do I know?  That's why I'm asking. 

Thanks!

Good to see you on Captalk again Mr Davis. ... I think you and Col. Jack Bagley need to for a CAP broadcasters Association.
Personally I anm not shelling out for the Mess Dress until I make Major.  Or am made a Squadron Commander whichever happens first.

[Smokey]

Here we go again.......

just like in the saluting thread, everyone wants to nit pick....you all sound like Bill Clinton trying to explain what "is" is and whether we are ever really alone.

C'mon folks  .....it won't be long before this thread is locked.

I know it's hard folks.....but let's use some common sense here on this forum.  Regulations sometimes are poorly worded, don't cover every situation and for the most part CAP regs if violated will not subject you to prosecution, especially under the UCMJ. 

While I don't propose wholesale disregard for the regs, what's the worse that can happen to you....a 2b?   Geez .


Wait....ooops...gotta go, a black van just pulled up out fro...................

[JC004]

...
Wait....ooops...gotta go, a black van just pulled up out fro...................

I hate when that happens...

[trekkindave]

They could always  take away your birthday....

[RogueLeader]

...
Wait....ooops...gotta go, a black van just pulled up out fro...................

I hate when that happens...

Thats why you should keep a ma deuce by the front door.  Put a "pet door" next to the front door, then you have a handy-dandy gun port.

They could always  take away your birthday....

Or paycheck, whichever is less expensive to them. . . .

[trekkindave]

Kidna off topic of the off topic-ness.... where can the mess dress uniform be purchased?  I would wear it if i could find one to wear.

[ddelaney103]

Kidna off topic of the off topic-ness.... where can the mess dress uniform be purchased?  I would wear it if i could find one to wear.

It can be bought at any on-base MCSS or through Vanguard.  Unless you're loaded, you might want to consider AFB thrift stores or thrifts near bases.

[pixelwonk]

Vanguard for accessories maybe, but I haven't seen the uniforms there.

Not near an AFB? Try AAFES via phone if you want it new
EBay is another source for used mess dress

[AlphaSigOU]

Kidna off topic of the off topic-ness.... where can the mess dress uniform be purchased?  I would wear it if i could find one to wear.

AAFES military clothing sales stores at your nearby (or not-so-nearby) Air Force base, for starters. Be prepared to fork over $300 for the uniform itself (jacket, trousers, shirt, bowtie and cummerbund, cufflinks and studs, and any tailoring), and at least $75-$200 additional for the CAP-specific insignia, mini medals, etc.

Also, the base thrift store/Airman's Attic sometimes has gently-used mess dress uniforms for sale for a fraction of the cost of new. eBay is another source, but bidding wars often erupt over the larger sizes most CAPers wear when offered for auction.

I don't know of any private source of the AF mess dress, though. Googled with no result. Army and Navy has Marlow White for their formal dress uniforms.

[MIKE]

The CAP Bookstore used to sell mess dress... Vanguard only offers the doo dads now IIRC.

[JayT]

Kidna off topic of the off topic-ness.... where can the mess dress uniform be purchased?  I would wear it if i could find one to wear.

Maybe check with one of the guys at the 106th?

[trekkindave]

Possibly... I'll have to ask around and check out EBAY

[JayT]

Possibly... I'll have to ask around and check out EBAY

If I find something, I'll let you know. I'm looking for a set for when I go FO.

[Hawk200]

Possibly... I'll have to ask around and check out EBAY

If I find something, I'll let you know. I'm looking for a set for when I go FO.

It would be sharp, but one problem: Do they even make FO Mess Dress shoulder boards? I've never seen them, so I don't know if they exist.

[Hawk200]

It would be sharp, but one problem: Do they even make FO Mess Dress shoulder boards? I've never seen them, so I don't know if they exist.

Apparently, Vanguard has the FO ranks in bullion to glue on to some blank shoulder boards. Ironically, the first investment is more expensive than regular officer grades.

[JayT]

Possibly... I'll have to ask around and check out EBAY

If I find something, I'll let you know. I'm looking for a set for when I go FO.

It would be sharp, but one problem: Do they even make FO Mess Dress shoulder boards? I've never seen them, so I don't know if they exist.

Yeah, metal rank on blank shoulder boards.

Blah!

[Hawk200]

Yeah, metal rank on blank shoulder boards.

Blah!

Actually they aren't metal, they're bullion like other officer rank.

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_411&products_id=7233

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_411&products_id=7234

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_411&products_id=7235

Vanguard's rather proud of them. Gotta be at that price.

[RogueLeader]

Slightly off topic, but what is bullion?

[MIKE]

Slightly off topic, but what is bullion?

Main Entry: bul·lion
Pronunciation: 'bul-y&n, -"yän
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French billion, bullion melting house, bullion, probably blend of Middle French bille ingot, piece of money (from Old French, log) and Anglo-French *bulliun, buillun cauldron, from Old French boillon froth on boiling liquid, broth -- more at BILLET, BOUILLON
1 a : gold or silver considered as so much metal; specifically : uncoined gold or silver in bars or ingots b : metal in the mass <lead bullion>
2 : lace, braid, or fringe of gold or silver threads

[Hawk200]

Slightly off topic, but what is bullion?

I don't know how to exactly to describe it other than it's basically a coiled strand of metal "embroidered" into the appropriate shape. There are numerous examples of it on the Vanguard website that should show you what it looks like, just search for "bullion" on there.

Go to the bottom of this page, hopefully it will work:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=bullion&items_per_page=40&sort=20a&page=21

There are a few examples of CAP bulliion items.

[RogueLeader]

Roger, and thanks. . . . .Who's Roger

[SAR-EMT1]

But I'd say if you want to do it, by all means wear your Mess Dress to formal night, just call it a recruiting opportunity. (Just don't get plowed or start blowing chunks in public...)  YMMV

Is this prohibited in the 39-1 or the 151?
Then again I blew chunks when I first saw the price tag. 

[Mustang]

I've seen a lot of differing opinions about wearing various uniforms, but here's a question which recently came up:

If you're on a cruiseline vacation, and there's a "formal" night, can you wear your mess dress uniform?

What I can't believe isn't that this question was asked, but that it was someone other than Joe-Ely Carrales asking it!

[Hawk200]

But I'd say if you want to do it, by all means wear your Mess Dress to formal night, just call it a recruiting opportunity. (Just don't get plowed or start blowing chunks in public...)  YMMV

Is this prohibited in the 39-1 or the 151?
Then again I blew chunks when I first saw the price tag. 

I believe that recommendation is more applicable when you are wearing said uniform. While looking at the price tag it may be considered acceptable, possibly expected.